Betsy Jordyn (00:00.16)
So are you wondering if we're all on the same page around what the heck a people centered organization or what people centered leaders are? Find out on today's Consulting Matters podcast.
And welcome to the Consulting Matters Podcast. This is the show for purpose-driven transformational consultants and coaches who are ready to own the power of what they do and position themselves, so the clients, the impact, the income they're ready for. I'm your host, Betsy Jordyn, and today I have a very special episode. as you all know, I have been kicking around this whole idea about creating this common good consulting and coaching consortium, all with an idea around how can we from different disciplines come together and figure out like how do we
How do we collaborate more effectively to create these people-centered organizations, people-centered leadership in a more concerted way? And so I have had several sessions and we wanted to explore: like, are we even on the same page in terms of our definitions? So, to answer that question, I brought on three of them participants from this common good consortium from different perspectives, from Lean from OD and L and D.
And we're gonna have a conversation around what does it look like around what we are having in common around our definitions and we where we have different perspectives and where we can piggyback on one another's expertise. So I got Matt here from the lean and continuous improvement space, and Kristen from the OD space, and Deborah from the LD space. So without further ado, let's get into it. So before we started, I'm gonna ask for each one of you to introduce yourselves.
share a little bit about what you do and specifically your area of expertise. And please explain it in a way that listeners who may not be familiar with your expertise will be able to quickly understand what it is that you do. And it doesn't even have to be your business background. Like I know Debra's working on her her what I do script for her brand new business and she's probably thinking like, okay, what do I how do I introduce myself here? So I'll let I'll let Matt and Kristen go first.
Betsy Jordyn (02:01.496)
So Kristen, why don't you kick us off and then we'll have Matt go next and Deborah can go last.
Kristen Chase (02:05.76)
Awesome. Sounds good. Hey everybody, I'm super glad to be on and having this discussion. And it's extremely important to me as I am an organizational development consultant in culture strategist. So I spend a lot of time thinking about how organizations define culture, how they shape their culture to get results and to also great care of their employees along the way. so that's a two big focus.
for me as well as coaching from an executive level as well as a general leadership or career pivot transition coaching another area. I have proceeds in and I think that's all from my intro.
Betsy Jordyn (02:50.89)
Awesome. So thank you, Kristen. Matt, let's kick it over to you.
Matthew White (02:55.682)
Yes, hello everybody. yeah, thankful to be a part of this conversation, looking forward to the time ahead. thank you, Betsy, for circling the wagons with this group and and bringing us together. so again, my name is Matt White. I work in continuous improvement. I've worked over 20 years in healthcare, continuous improvement, healthcare operations, and recently in the last few years joined the manufacturing industry. And so bringing that
skill set of continuous improvement to the manufacturing setting in the Milwaukee, Wisconsin area. So I I work with teams to help with efficiencies and workflow. you know, help to remove bottlenecks with their processes and and really just to alleviate the frustrations that they have in their day-to-day work. and so really it's partnering with them to to problem solve and work with them on on making their days.
more efficient and and more value add.
Betsy Jordyn (03:55.168)
Awesome. Thank you.
Deborah Masak (03:56.32)
Awesome. thank you for having me. Yeah, Betsy, thank you for having me. So good to to meet you, Matt and Kristen as well. my name is Deborah Mastick, and I'm my background is in learning and development, which includes leadership development, sales enablement, and learning strategy. And so over the last 25 plus years, I'd say I've built and led from the ground, built built from the ground up and led.
learning and development organizations across sales, revenue, HR, and operations. in organizations that range from mid-size about two hundred and fifty thousand to over a billion and a half. so I worked with those organizations. And what really shaped my perspective for my work that I do, work that I did also, was that I think that organizations often say that people are their greatest asset, but
What they don't always say is that we, you know, we they don't operate systematically. So what that means to me is that a large part of my work became connecting people development to measurable business results. that was really important for me early in my career. And not treating learning or leadership or culture as separate from the business, but as a driver of business performance itself.
That was really important to me. What helped me with my business acumen and a way in which to talk about it was when I became certified with the ROI Institute. And ROI stands for return on investment for those that are listening. so I spent a lot of time again thinking about how we can connect that people, the people investments to real organizational impact. So it always, you know, with the with that that measurement side, it always starts with the why.
And so I also was interested in that for people. So I became certified in Simon Sinek's Y Discovery. So I'm a certified Y Discovery coach to help connect people to their purpose. And I think that what I also do for learning and development is connect the learning to the purpose of the business. And so this this conversation is really important to me.
Betsy Jordyn (06:16.094)
thank you so much for sharing that. And thank you for all of you being here. for those are listening, like my background, like I came out of the L and D H R O D space. And so I was an OD for a long time. And then I became a brand messaging and positioning strategist for consultants and coaches. And what really sparked this whole idea of like we need to collaborate more was
working with Katie Anderson, who comes out of the lean and continuous improvement space. And one of the things it took me forever to realize in all of our work together is that there's a whole management system behind that. There's a like a whole management system, a whole leadership philosophy behind it. And it was like, Well, why did I not know about this? You know, so Katie and I had a conversation, and that's actually where Matt and I first had a connection is he heard the conversation that Katie and I had.
And he's the one who kind of like sparked me to say, hey, we should really get something going, you know, because I kind of wax philos philosophical about bringing a group together. So like I really want to unpack a little bit more around like what is it that we believe? And I want to start with Matt, because I think that even as you introduced yourself, I don't think me but people would automatically assume like removing bottlenecks and looking for efficiencies has a deep people centered component. Can you share for the for all of us here and for those listening?
For all the and the gap that I personally had is how is continuous improvement really a leadership system and perspective?
Matthew White (07:38.57)
Yeah, that's a great question. So when we think about our roles in continuous improvement, right, what we're focused on is creating value and working with the folks that are responsible for creating that value. And so connecting with the frontline folks, understanding the challenge that they face, how we can get leadership support and and closing that gap in what the frontline folks need to be able to do their jobs efficiently and effectively.
you know, if you go out there and and Google it, it's called the iceberg of ignorance. and you know, and it shows the difference between, you know, what top level leadership sees versus what the frontline people see, right? And so, in in my work and in my training, I don't call it the iceberg of ignorance. I I think if if we're rooted in respect for people and you know, in continuous improvement, I you know, I don't want to call leaders ignorant. but it
It shows the picture of the disconnect between what leaders see versus what frontline folks see and experience. Right. And so as we're in environments where throughput and on time delivery and and these expectations get higher and higher, right, are we equipping the folks with the skills and the resources and the tools and all the things that they need to be successful? And and do we understand what those needs are?
so I I I think when we when we think about people centered leadership, I think it starts with our core principle in lean of respect for people and and what does that truly mean? you know, it goes far beyond opening doors and right, the kind of the the cordial passing and saying hello, right? It it's truly understanding it, you know, what are the things that are hindering you from doing your best today and what what barriers can I help you remove as a leader?
and and we wanna drive leaders to the frontline work to at least observe it, go see, go understand, and show respect when they're when they're in their areas.
Betsy Jordyn (09:36.386)
So when you say respect for people, it it's really about respecting the work that they are responsible for. And it sounds like, you know, also like having a respect for like be go where they are, like not necessarily just, you know, lead from on high, but go to where they are. That's a part of respect. Is there other definitions? Like if you were going to round out a a clear definition for respect for people means, what would you say the definition from a continuous improvement standpoint is?
Matthew White (10:08.694)
It I I think from my point and I don't know what what other practitioners would stay right, but when I think about respect for people, I think of how people centered organizations get this right around not just hiring folks for their hands, but hiring them for what for their heads too, right? Like bringing folks in, bringing their creativity, bringing their best self, appreciating that.
right, a good leadership relationship is knowing when somebody has an off day, right, how are they connecting with that person and and truly making them feel welcome and a part of the organization and and really meeting them where they're at, right? I think of maybe some of you remember the show undercover CEO, right? Where the CEO would go undercover and he'd go to where the work is done, right? And and he that individual would see.
the environment and the conditions and all the things that that these frontline folks are working with and having to deal with and doing that because he really or she didn't really have an idea. And so they have to go see to experience that. And so I I think the the definition for me is you know a people centered organization, a respect for people organization is is one where we we go and we show up and we listen and we listen to learn so that as leaders we know how to lead.
Betsy Jordyn (11:32.672)
It sounds like what you're talking about is a lot of deep empathy, like seeing the world from the perspective of the employees that you're trying to lead. You know, like walk a mile in their shoes, see what it's like, you know, not what the reports would say, but see actually what what it's like for them. And it sounds like empathy for them as a human, you know, not necessarily like a worker, but it's like they could have an off day. You know, so it sounds like respect for people, so respecting the humanity and having empathy for empathy for the way the world of the work.
feels to them. Did is that somewhere correct or is there anything you could add change, delete?
Matthew White (12:08.182)
No, I I think that's a great summary. I I used to work for a a CEO and I remember when we were doing some volunteering, we were handing out turkeys at Thanksgiving. And he and we he served hundreds and hundreds of our employees. And every car that Coop like drove up, he knew like ninety, ninety-five percent of their names. Wow. Out of uniform, out of right. And he just he knew their names, right? And and after they would leave, they'd he'd make a comment about something they knew about their family or their kid, right? And it's like
This guy gets it. Right. And right. And that that's that's what people's people centered leadership looks like.
Betsy Jordyn (12:46.296)
So Kristen, let me ask you this question. So from an OD perspective, what would you say is similar to the point of view that OD people think and and like what's similar and what's a little different? Like what would be an OD nuance?
Kristen Chase (13:02.572)
I mean, I love the center around empathy and the understanding of the experience. To do any kind of systemic change, I think it's always better to start by knowing the people that you're working with from the very front line of the organization all the way up to the top, right? And having a real in-depth understanding of what those issues are. So very, very aligned with that. And then also, you know, we we as OD practitioners would want to do some
systemic research around that, right? We would wanna, you know, make sure that we have a representative sample or or really have surveyed the workforce or the employees so that we know kind of what are the biggest, most pressing themes, not just necessarily kind of one off passionate stories, although those are great to have as anecdotes, but to really understand the landscape, we're gonna want some data and some information.
kind of a an overall assessment of that, right? So I think that that the little nuance that we bring in is to really always start with a bit of a diagnostic, right? Like right. I mean, i if we're talking about a people centered organization, what what are we working with here? Like and and really unpacking the different aspects of what can make up a culture could be people centered or not. So looking at things like shared values and purpose
teaming and and all of those kind of maybe a little bit softer aspects, but also then looking at the structure of the organization and the systems and processes and tools that are in place reimport and recognize the behaviors and the values that are important. And then who are the people, right? Who are the people that we have? And really back to the understanding of that. And then also the leadership. And how is the leadership modeling and demonstrating and reinforcing and then
you know, again, recognizing and rewarding the type of behavior that we want. So there's a lot of different and then kind of think back to the business to say at the end of the day, well, why we're here is to get results. Right. So is the culture that we have driving the kind of business results that we want? Is it facilitating that or is it hindering that somehow? And and by the way, what are we actually trying to do as a company? And do our employees even know that?
Kristen Chase (15:28.648)
Think right motivating factor, the purpose, you know, again, back to why we're here. You know, do I understand as I work on the front line, right? Like that the the things I'm doing, the things I'm creating, the experiences with a guest. So I'm speaking from my universal days, right? You know, the experience that I I'm having with the guests that are in front of me, right? Or or whatever sort of product I'm I'm working to deliver or service, do I get that what I'm doing every
day actually matters for the end goal of what we're trying to do. So it's a zoom out kind of a perspective. We take that big kind of system, right?
Betsy Jordyn (16:10.008)
So it's almost like like if Matt is dealing with like, okay, here's right in front of us, like we're dealing with this, this is the real world every single day. OD takes the wider lens of saying, okay, thematically, what's going on here? You know, so if you really want to have respect for people and understanding it, you can't go with a bunch of one off anecdotes. Like you have to thematically look at it. It's a big picture, you know, and using some sort of research methodology, and they both kind of come together. Like what's coming to my mind.
That I wish I would have understood. Like, like what what drives me crazy about like not really understanding the continuous improvement world is that there was a lot of things that I was doing or I would have been introduced to that I could have involved the partners or been more intentional. So when I was at Disney, like you, Kristen, at Universal, we were always expected to go to the parks. Like the all every GM, whenever I met with a GM, we never sat in the office. We always had to walk the park, but I didn't have the perspective.
from the continuous improvement point of view, that there was like data to be collecting and empathy to be gathering. It was more like, okay, I'm trying to see the world from the perspective of the GM that I'm supporting. I wonder what it would have been like if I would have done my assessment is if I was walking the park from the perspective of the employees that I'm trying to collect data from. You know, like if I could have seen it that way.
You know, same thing like whenever I started a new consulting engagement when I was an external consultant, every executive team, you know, they all wanted me to, you know, shop the, you know, go to shop the floor, you know, go to their floor, whatever, walk the lock walk the floor. And I never I might have looked at it from the perspective of like, okay, I need to learn the business, but
To understand and have the empathy. Like if I'm here to help enhance this organization and create the results where the the people on the front line are connected to what's going on the C suite and there's an alignment here. You know, I wish I would have known that. But it seems like that's where the the value is. It's like, here's what's going on, you know, really at the at the moment of truth with the the employee and the customer experience. And this is what's really happening. These are the people delivering. There's benefit from an OD standpoint, is like, all right, let's get a holistic look.
Betsy Jordyn (18:11.678)
And as I'm thinking about it, Mike, but both of them are interesting points of data that maybe we could, you know, learn from. Deborah, let's add in the L and D perspective on this whole thing. You know, so as you are thinking about, you know, what respect for people means and what a people centered organization, what is an L and D point of view?
Deborah Masak (18:30.962)
from my point of view and for learning and development, it's a it's creating the atmosphere or the environment where people and the business succeed together. So I don't I never looked at it as a separate thing. So I you know, I told you about my desire to bring in measurement and proof that learning was actually working, but it didn't happen unless we were actually tied to the business goals. So what I hear from all of us here.
Which is ironic is that we have such I mean, there's some blurred lines dramatically here on on what we all do, but we rarely sit at the same table together. Right. I mean, Kristen, you might be over here working on something and Matt, you might be in a manufacturing plant somewhere and you know, Debbie is over here working on a a program or a, you know, a talent or program that we were asked to deliver, but not brought to the table to discuss it.
And I think that's the biggest gap in all of this is that the the table that we all sit at is they're in separate rooms with our own little red stapler. You know what I mean? So if you get the reference to to the to the comedy show there. But I think that when when people are not treated as a number on a report, but yet they're they're treated more leaders respect them enough to say,
Look, I know what we have to do. Here's what the business needs from the organization. And I want you to be a part of that. And I want to show you how to do that. So learning and development, when done really, really well, takes that into consideration. We think about how does it impact the business? How does the learner see the business overall? And how do we make it clear so that they're developing people in a responsible way, but also
they know what what's expected of them. And a great people centered leader is able to not only treat them as as a you know as a great employee, but they also can connect the dots to the business results at the same time. And learning and development creation does the same thing when done well.
Betsy Jordyn (20:49.154)
So you mentioned something about like the different rooms that everybody's in. So let's talk about where is everybody positioned in the organization typically. Like where would where like Deborah, where would L and D typically fall in an org chart? Not necessarily just in your experience, but just across the board. Where was where does L and D fall?
Deborah Masak (21:06.54)
Yeah, because I didn't work in a typical space for most of my career. But it typically sits under human resources, HR.
Betsy Jordyn (21:14.604)
And where does O D fall under? Kristen.
Kristen Chase (21:17.676)
Yeah, similar similar there. interesting though, I think, Deborah, I think about O D and L and V are typically the most connected. yet in the organization I was in for twenty two years, we were not necessarily reporting to the same leadership team. So in order to make sure that there was strategic data and information sharing, I took it upon myself
to make sure to connect with the other leaders to say, hey, I have some information that might be helpful to you as you're planning the things that you're doing. And let's get together and talk. Right. So yes, we were part of the same larger team of human resources, but interestingly not under the same kind of smaller part of the word. So
Betsy Jordyn (22:08.458)
And where does where does continuous improvement typically fall in the organization?
Matthew White (22:13.902)
Yeah. So on the couple of organizations that I've been a part of, it kind of reports up through right. Like we've got a VP of continuous improvement and then there's directors and then right there's that that clear path. where I'm at now, it's a little bit different. so we have right, so I report into the our president of the business. and then right, the folks that I support in operations report to the plant manager, right? So the
The structure's a little bit different where I'm at today. but yeah, typically I've seen a report to right, CI folks report to CI folks. A little different where I'm at today.
Betsy Jordyn (22:54.008)
Where was CI show up? Does it fall under operations or does it fall like where does it fall into the organization on the whole? Is it CI with is is it within, you know, like ops? Is it underneath a different or different department?
Matthew White (23:09.542)
yeah, that's a good question. I think probably more closely aligned to operations where I'm at today.
Kristen Chase (23:15.726)
Mm-hmm.
Betsy Jordyn (23:18.953)
So how do you
Kristen Chase (23:20.186)
right to the CEO, right? So you're right you're in the upper tier of the organization. So do I do wonder about that if it's more regularly connected to the operational world. but there's other parts of the business that could benefit from as a whole.
Betsy Jordyn (23:39.064)
So that brings up an interesting point because sometimes there's like the chief learning officer or you know, chief improvement officer, like sometimes there is that and then sometimes it's not. I wonder like why some companies elevate like learning or, you know, people, you know, or people in organization development to the C suite or in continuous improvement, you know, and does that benefit considering there's all these other departments who are trying to do the same thing? Like, does it benefit to have one of these departments elevated to that level?
And not all of You know, like is there is is that a benefit or is that a challenge?
Deborah Masak (24:13.432)
Again, I think it silos us further unless you have like you have a Kristen who sees who sees that you need to be at the table with everybody. in my experience, you know, HR doesn't see it. HR doesn't think to bring it all together. and it's also, you know, learning and development can also sit in revenue, which I spent most of my career in, in that in that side of it. But again, that was all about
short term benefits of hitting goals. And that's the other problem is are we looking at short term benefits of hitting quarterly goals, which is typically where we seem to be right now in this economy, in this world, or are we looking to develop people long term? If we're looking to just hit short term goals, we're gonna hit, we're gonna have short term solutions and they're not gonna, they're not gonna stick around. But if you're developing people long term
connecting the dots to the bottom line, you will have a much longer growth. But that's hard to that's hard for a revenue person to have patience like that, to say, it's coming, right? turnover is going to improve. we're going to have better employee engagement. You just need to give us, you know, a few a few more months to let the to let the learning work.
Kristen Chase (25:36.492)
If you will.
Betsy Jordyn (25:37.006)
I wanna so I want to circle back to what you're saying. so like hold that thought real quick. I wanna just clarify one other thing around the positioning issue, and then I wanna get into the challenges. You know, so if we're like when you think about like the different kind of functions of like being in the different areas of like where everybody is reporting, you know, like like if everybody is so who's everybody trying to consult to? Like who's your client? Who's the internal client of who you're trying to consult to?
And is it confusing for them to have so many different disciplines, you know, sharing their perspective on how they should grow as a leader? Like how does like how does that positioning affect like who are you who are you positioned to help? Who's your main client? And what are you influencing them to do? And are they getting whispers in their ears from somebody else rather than getting like a unified perspective?
Kristen Chase (26:30.124)
I I think there's a lot of whispers and some shouts and some some talking and some rumors and who knows, right? I think it's probably coming from a lot of different places, at least in the experiences that I've had, because there's not necessarily alignment between, for example, the HR business partner who's dedicated to a specific client group. Their goal is this for fighting. Their goal is for food and beverage and meet those leaders' needs and be present with their employees and and and have that local client.
Based point of view. And then here comes the global point of view, the corporate, the broader perspective, saying, well, we all should do something. And that's typically where I thought from an OD perspective is looking at the broad whole. So the challenge then became how do you make sure that you're incorporating the local point of view, getting your HR business partner on your side, also then bringing in
your L and D partners so that you can enable training and solutions and programs to facilitate the kind of culture and the kind of behaviors that, for example, the employee survey says are lacking in this particular area. But how far you go down customizing all of those things to meet the needs of specific leaders, right? So that's where that became challenging. And then from your like you said, Betsy, from the leader's perspective,
If we're not aligned, I don't I don't think we were always aligned. It's just hard to get aligned around what's most important. So there's lots of different messaging happening.
Betsy Jordyn (28:05.134)
But are you okay? So in terms of your client in this example, so it sounds like the HR leader is their main client is the head of whatever the business unit that they're responsible for, whatever the line of business. If you're coming in from a global perspective, who's your client? Is your client somebody else at the global level? Like who's the client of OD from that standpoint? Because maybe you're just serving different people and it's not confusing. You know, just maybe we just need to be clear like who's serving who. So who did you serve?
As an OD consultant bringing in the global perspective.
Kristen Chase (28:37.218)
Mm-hmm. And and sometimes there's a level, right? So we would typically interface more directly with with HR as a conduit to say.
Betsy Jordyn (28:47.128)
But what was your main client? Was it who's who was your main client? If HR has the VP.
Kristen Chase (28:53.39)
Yeah. The main client for us would be an HR business partner or the head of HR
Betsy Jordyn (28:58.968)
So you are in service of the HR that is supporting somebody else. So the who did you report? I I'm trying to clarify this. HR is their main client is the business unit lead. So let's just say for kicks and giggles, it's like the F and B leader. So the senior VP of F and B is the HR HR VP, the C H R O is responsible for that person. And where do you fit in? Or is it a different person? Because it could be that
We're all like trying to compete for the influence of the same leader, or maybe we're actually trying to support different leaders at different levels. And maybe there isn't a confusion. We just need to align everything. Does that make sense?
Kristen Chase (29:41.864)
Yeah, I think it's different leaders at different levels, but yes, we are all part of the HR leadership team. And there's just different client groups within that. And me at NOD, I'm global, so I've turned everybody that reports to the CHRO, all the other HR Vs and S.
Betsy Jordyn (30:01.048)
But like there was a client, like when I was an OD consultant, I had a client where it was might have been like this the senior VP of the area and there might be other people underneath it, but like my world rose and fell around that particular leader. And it really wasn't HR. Like HR was like I that was my boss, but not necessarily my internal client. I what I'm trying to get to like and try to understand is are we all trying to influence the exact same leaders and we're like jumping all over each other?
Or are we really influencing leaders at different levels and it could just benefit from us coordinating more effectively? Like Matt, who's your world rise and fall on? Like who's the main client that typically continuous improvement, you know, really tries to support? And same from your perspective, Deborah. And that's really the question I'm wondering about is are we going after different leaders and we just need to align what we're doing? Or are we all trying to influence the exact same leaders and we're tripping over each other?
Matthew White (30:57.59)
Yeah, I think from from our from my perspective, right, our our focus on continuous improvement and I I think this is a great perspective from where we're at today is it comes from the CEO. Right. Like he he knows the importance of this discipline, you know, of this skill set and this mindset within his organization. and so that so he he's the main one. And then from there we each fall into our segments and then our divisions and then down to our plants. So that
that vision and expectation cascades and and we help you know we help drive that into our respective areas. so so for us, the message is clear that hey, continuous improvement is, you know, it's a non-negotiable. This is something that we're striving for. and it and it comes from the top. And so the the the leadership support and the leadership engagement that we have at that level is, you know, is solid here.
as far as the other disciplines like you know, L and D and OD, I I think that there's I'm not as close to it. I I'm kind of a maybe a customer of it. but it does seem like there's a little bit of improvement in the L and D piece of it and the relationship that's happening within our our enterprise continuous improvement team because of some of the development that we're pulling together for our continuous improvement.
you know, trainings and tools and assessments and things like that. Right. So I I think there is some some good collaboration happening. but I just don't know what that looks like at at that level.
Deborah Masak (32:37.088)
So I would say a a a really good call out about my experience has been the CEO is well connected, probably weekly or or you know multiple times in a week to everybody that reports into the CEO. But all decisions are left to those individual leaders that report up to the to the CEO. So that means for me that we have multiple people, Betsy, that that are our
audience unless unless the organization and and the and the and the company has a strong focus and maybe this is where the CLO role, chief learning officer role, plays a big part, unless there is unless there's a force or a body of infra a body of people or thought around developing people then then i you're left to support
individual leaders. And in my world, I always tried to, if I supported one leader, like I I worked closely with the chief operating officer, to support him in developing the agents that performed the work. I wanted to make sure that what I delivered might also be able to help the chief financial officer. And that was a a way for me to get contact through there. But it was always up to the learning and development
leader or organization to make those connections. And if you don't make those connections, you don't get a seat at the table. And that's why I think that if we could all like in the future, if we could all work together to be and deliver around the same business requirements, that it would be a lot easier that way. Otherwise you have people serving leaders doing different things and it's all very fragmented and looks jumbled. If that makes sense.
Kristen Chase (34:34.822)
I could add on Debbie to say I agree with you that it's incumbent upon us as the ODLD professionals to make those connections to the other business heads. So yes, we're working for the DHRO and then they have their individual SDPs, which have their business units. And so one, for example, might be creative and we do something great for creative. Well, then it's incumbent upon me to think, how do I engage with all of the other SDPs for you know the operational
businesses and the corporate businesses to determine is that an applicable solution to that to them. Yep. And and if so, great. If not, all right, then we need to pivot. But that was a lot of struggle there to figure out what is globalized and what is clearly going to be the same across versus custom and unique for all of the leaders. And they feel that they're special and their group is unique and different, right? And that that's tough. So
If we were to consult up front, be the collective and have one table where we were with those leaders. And that's challenging because sometimes they don't want everybody in the room and there's too many aid for people in the room. Just saying, and that's the broad stage are like LD, OD, whatever. You fill in the blank, there's too many of them. We just want only five people in the room. So if we can get in the room and all talk at the beginning of the year, we say, okay, these are the priorities, these are the
Priorities of pie business. that's similar here and similar here. And by the way, that connects to our overarching goal. And now we go off and do what we need to do. But it's so rare that it seems that the time is spent to the line up front. with all various partners. It's incumbent upon us. And if we're collaborative and we see the benefit, great. If we're competitive and we're looking out for ourselves, there's not really a requirement to do it.
Deborah Masak (36:25.014)
No, you're right.
Betsy Jordyn (36:26.966)
And I think like as we wrap up this part, because I want to get into like what are the the challenges that we run into in creating these people centered organizations and leaders. And I want to make sure we have time to get to that. But as we wrap it up, I want to differentiate between like who is your accountability to and who your client is. You know, if you are reporting to HR, that is not your client. I mean, that is that it's not your client. That's like who your accountability is. Your client is the person whose transformation you're trying to create. You know, and if you're talking about like in Matt's world, like if you're talking about
empowering the frontline people to have a have a voice like there's something at the frontline experience like that's ultimately the transformation you're trying to create if you're talking about global stuff it's like executives is probably more the whole thing you know and you know an L and D can you know fall in somewhere in there but it's like thinking about like whose transformation are you there to help create and then trying to align you know who's doing what as it relates to that. When I was at Disney, the OD department
We were pretty much aligned to the executives, but anybody below the executive was not really our ballywick. Like it was the performance consulting team in the DU that was responsible for developing them. Like w Disney University, we were not responsible. We were required to partner, but we were not responsible. You know, if it was coming down to the frontline experience, like OD had nothing to to do with the specifics as a outside of like collectively, what's the perspective?
So as you're looking at your partners, I would just as we wrap this up. I would also be thinking about like who's your client, you know, that who's who's your discipline and your expertise most relevant for? And what is the person who, when your expertise is applied, is going to create the best value? That's your client. And then looking at the different disciplines, like how do we even make it more clear that if we are going after the same client, how do we make sure we coordinate our messages? So we're not giving this particular client conflict conflicting perspectives.
and diff conflicting point of view. Like we're have one message. Like we're developing them in this particular area. So if you're trying to create a transformation on the front line and the front line or line is doing something, you probably need to connect with LND to make sure L and D's training is not conflicting. You guys are on the same page. You know, if you're trying to influence executives to think about something in a particular way, like it's not to get the executives to think about, we're going to do a lien transformation and this is a culture
Betsy Jordyn (38:42.464)
no, OD is over here. We want you to do a a culture transformation and it looks like this, you know. But making sure, like, if you're going after the same person, you're influencing them, you know, and if somebody else has an expertise to influence the same person, you know, wouldn't it be easier if everybody got on the same page around like, here's our message, here's what we're trying to do. And now how do we divide and conquer? So we're maximizing our time. You know, like if Matt's team is doing all of this stuff around creating this respect for people and getting these leaders to understand.
you know, just even the basics of getting to know an employee's name, then Deborah doesn't have to worry about it in her training. You know, let her do, you know, like what she's developing, she can she could just reinforce it and then doesn't have to worry about it. So that's like as my any last comments around positioning and partnering before we move on to our our collective our collective perspectives on what helps and hinders the creation of these people centered organizations.
Anything you want to add before we transition?
Matthew White (39:42.518)
Nope. Yeah, good here.
Kristen Chase (39:44.963)
Okay.
Deborah Masak (39:45.186)
think it can be better and that's probably gonna get back to the hindrances, right? And the systems that are put into place. I I I do see an opportunity, especially sitting here with all of you, I see such a huge opportunity around that. If I if I think if each of us were to write out our model for what we do, like if we had a circle and we could identify all the people and all the the groups and the departments that we work with, I bet that
one of us would leave one of something out that we never thought about. Right. 'Cause Matt, you can you could make a a circle and I bet learning and development may not even be in your circle or something like that, right? So I think there's opportunity is my point.
Betsy Jordyn (40:30.712)
Well, that that is a a natural plug for the group that Kristen is bringing together to try to create that. It's and so Kristen, can you share a little bit about like what you're trying to do in terms of taking on the leadership of bringing together the group for the toolkit? And can you share a little bit more about that and how people can get a hold of you if they want to be a part of solutions like what just Deborah mentioned? Or Debbie. I knew you as Deborah. I know you go by Debbie.
Deborah Masak (40:56.078)
That's fine. I know. It's either way.
Kristen Chase (41:00.886)
Yeah, I mean, I'm completely aligned that we need to come together to have a shared approach and a shared set of tools upon which each discipline can certainly add their own flavors and twists and additional customization. But there's a core message that I think we're all trying to send and signal to leaders about what's important when they're in the room, where they're making decisions and you know
That's happening, right? When we want to be we want to leave them with those messages in their minds. So even if we pr by by chance are not in that room, which we may not be, right? That we they will have a guide in their mind to say, Okay, are we balancing business results, financial outcomes, the short term with the long term, with the development of people? How are we second balancing ourselves, right? As I think they're like a common
And so I I feel like that's where if a group comes together and talk about how we're coming at it from different perspectives, and perhaps draws those circles. Love that idea. I'm seeing an exercise already. draws circles and we see where are we overlapping or where are we not and where do we want to create more of a beautiful Venn diagram, right? That we all can come together and have that sweet spot of.
This is the message that we inherently are all trying to send to the CEO, to their immediate leaders, to the people who are in power to make these kinds of decisions, right? And then what are the tools that need to be created as a common set of tools that can help facilitate that? Right. So we're trying to create a cross-functional group that isn't too big, so we can still get stuff done, but has the right representation of people that are passionate to get something.
put together and and and taken away as an actionable for us all to walk out with something important back to our organization, to introduce to our clients, et cetera. So we connect with me, Kristen at chase ct.com for all of you listeners out there. if that is something that you're passionate about and part of of the to involve. So
Betsy Jordyn (43:22.358)
And I'll definitely put the link in the show notes to your email. You know, there's a reason why also that I chose to take a step back and let Kristen take the lead on this is she's the one who kicked off, I think the Greater Orlando Organization Development Network, which is called the Good Network, here has been in around I think like 10, 20 years. Like, how long has it been there? So she's the one who came up with this idea. Now it's this thriving professional association. And like, so somebody who's been there done that and knows how to do it.
where, you know, I'm still a slight brand person over here. You know, like that's not my sweet spot. So I'm really excited that she decided to step up because how how long has the good network been around? yeah, I it's it's definitely over ten years.
Kristen Chase (44:04.834)
Yeah, actually over twenty. So Really it was found founded around the time I started my time with Universal. That's my experience of about twenty two years ago. So yeah. Yeah.
Betsy Jordyn (44:07.307)
you're twenty, wow. Really?
Betsy Jordyn (44:18.456)
So I've been spending a lot of time in like I've been working on this workbook and this program to enhance my brand positioning process. So I've been delving a lot into strengths and how important it is to stay within your strengths. And this is her strength, it is not mine. So we are going to leverage each other's strengths to get this thing done. And then it's actually also the hope I have as you all put together the toolkit is, you know, from where I sit, because I get to meet people from all these different disciplines, is
Everybody really has like these unique strengths. And you know, it's like if you can capitalize, it's not even just your functional areas, but there's a certain way, like there's a certain way that continuous improvement people like kind of look at the business. It's different than L and D people that's different from OD people, different from change management people, HR people. And like a lot of it is around the strengths. You know, so easy even as you divvy up things around like who's doing what, like, well, you know, like like how do you capitalize on what each each area is bringing to the table?
But we have to get time to talk about our collective challenges. So we talked about how we're positioned, what we all do. It sounds like we have, you know, for the most part, a common definition around what people centered leadership and and organizations are. I don't I don't I haven't heard anything that's a super big outlier. Seems like we're on the same page around that. So now let's get into what we believe are the challenges that we're all facing, because it feels like this is not an easy thing to get done r especially right now. So
Deborah brought up the short term issue. maybe if Kristen and Matt wanna elaborate on your perspective around the short term focus and that is a challenge. And let's see if we could identify other challenges and and what are some initial ideas of what we can do about them, if anything. So, Matt, what about from you? What do you think?
Matthew White (46:00.278)
Yeah, I th I think from my perspective in the short term is time and capacity, right? Finding the time to to pull together right some of the things we're focused on and training and development and you know, maturing our organization and and these different CI, you know, tools and methodologies and things like that. is just time, right? Pulling folks off offline to to problem solve is a hard thing to do. you know, I really try to
make improvements on the spot in the work area at the closest point of impact. you know, but sometimes you do have to pull folks offline to to get them out of the work environment because it's noisy, it's loud, right? There's distractions. You're looking at work that needs to be done, right? So it it so I I think there's a number of factors, but I I think time and yeah just the demand, kind of the the rate of change that's happening in business too.
just the all factors that just make it difficult to make progress at times.
Betsy Jordyn (47:04.758)
Yeah. And and the if I remember when I first got into OD in the nineties, I said, the rate of change is like, you know, super crazy compared to where it's been in the past. And you know, that's like what's that phrase about holding your beer? You know, like, you know, like, that was so sweet. nineties, we thought that was a lot of change. so we're doing so cute back then. Kristen, what do you see are some of the short term or not short term challenges? if you want to comment on what Deborah said about the sh the pressure for short term profitability.
And the rate of change and the impact of time is seems what Matt is adding to the co the conversation. Kristen, if you have something you want to add to either one of those or add your own unique new d a new thought to the conversation about what are some of the challenges.
Kristen Chase (47:49.004)
Yeah. I mean, I think honestly, people probably feel like any day is just whiplash, right? Like where am I looking next? Who who's asking for what? What's the latest, you know, report saying from a financial perspective? How are we gonna have to shift and change? And there's a lot of reward around urgent, being reactive and responsive, being able to pivot and be agile.
And I know that, you know, something that I've kind of helped try to advise towards is well, yeah, we we don't want to flip in the total other direction either and be completely slow and bureaucratic and unable to pivot. But when people don't even know which way is up, right, sometimes I think and they're also getting so many different signals about this is a priority and this is a priority. Well, then nothing can truly be a priority if there's 10 or 20 priorities, right? So being able to
put pen to paper with the leadership team involved from the top to say, hey, for this at least on a yearly basis, like these are our key goals. Like we are locking in on this. And it's gonna take a heck of a lot to pull us off of those. And we're gonna spend time vesting those out in a personal way to the leaders and in turn to their team members. So every and their employees to everybody gets the message, this stuff matters. These
Two or three things, like no more than that, right? Yeah. And that's part of the hard part is everyone just pulled in different directions. Not enough time right now. Like and if you really do want to get that frontline input, you do have to take them out of their work, away from the guest, you know, in a quiet environment where you can spend time, you know, getting to know them and really understanding by experience. So yeah, I I just think committed commitment to priorities that are a bit longer term.
that are you're gonna have to stick with them a little bit longer. and you might not see that immediate return. I think that that's part of starting down the path of being more of a a barren decision making organization where you think about, you know, those things in context.
Betsy Jordyn (50:02.766)
You know, it's interesting, like lately I have had three leadership coaches that I've been working with and all of them have saying the problem they want to solve is help leaders move from reactive to responsive. And it's like, that's an interesting theme. Like everybody's like struggling with like this reactive kind of thing. And it's like, well, you can't like it's not a hundred percent on the leader and their skill sets. Like I remember
When when I was at Disney, it would be no problem to get three days for leaderships to come together to work on the strategy. Like that was a normal thing. We had normally we would have like these extensive strategy meetings. And nobody would say like Disney at the time was like not a you know, on top of a beer you know, they weren't a bureaucratic organization, but we thought everything through, you know, and we made plans. And then I left Disney and I started my own business and there was like all the like maybe it was like post recession.
But everybody at that time, it was like it would be a miracle if you can get executives together for four hours to do an a or a like a strategy. So like three days to four hours. And now it's even less. Like, you know, like, we we care too busy, we can't even get together. And it's like I think that there's a quality of think time. It's like, how in the world do you strategize for the future and get out of reactive when you're creating the conditions for people to only be reactive?
There's no other choice. You know, and if you're saying we have to get short term numbers and we have to everything's about the short term profitability and we just want to get our numbers to look great so we can get acquired by this other company, then who's invested in the long term? Like who cares? Like nobody's really invested in the long term. And if we're trying to create these conditions that are s setting us up for sustainable success, like you have to think about it. You have to strategize. You know, and I I think that's interesting. I don't know if you all noticed.
a change, you know, maybe it's just my age, you know, showing that I've been in this business for a long time, but really three days was not a problem. We would get the entire like Grand Floridian leadership team, every single person, we get them out of the office for two and a half days for just the Grand Floridian hotel retreat. And half of the day on one of the days was just playing golf and and going to the spa. Like it was all of that fun part was a part of what we were doing too.
Betsy Jordyn (52:09.196)
You know, like now there's no fun. Like w you know, we don't even have like the fun relationship building stuff. It's like get it done, get it done fast.
Deborah Masak (52:16.876)
I think CEOs I think CEOs still do that, some, where they'll bring but they're it's only their their leadership team that does does the retreats and then you have to have really great leaders to make it come to life and not burn out your employees in a responsible way. so I think that the
the it's the systems, just exactly what you're saying there, is the systems that don't support long term development. There's short term pressure on all of that. But I think that leaders can and they do, like, but it's only the C suite. It's like who gets the microphone? The microphone is only given to people most of the time that are right below the CEO.
Who else gets the microphone? Who else can come to the table to speak? Why are we not doing that more often or pushing that more often? You you almost need a leader that sees the benefit in all of that.
Betsy Jordyn (53:24.704)
My experience with the CEOs and the C suite, they're not spending the same amount of time on strategy. They might still go out and add some fun things, but they're not doing three day work treats on strategy. It would be it's still like four hours, like, you know, we're gonna come up with our plan for the future. You've got four hours, that's it. You know, like no other no other time. You know, I but I think to your point is like the involvement of the rest of the organization, the giving the space for people to even have a voice or
To be able to get the microphone and have input on work that affects them, you know, outside of just one off leaders doing a good job. Like like creating the listening posts that are regularly in the system might be something that maybe that's a countermeasure you all could work on is creating the listening post. How do you give people how do like like that would be a question I would ask the group is how do you help leaders, given the fact that everything's changing and there's all the stuff going on?
And you gotta think about the future. And it takes time to think about the future. So how do you move from reactive to responsive as a leader when you're in this environment? Like I don't know if you have top of line thoughts, or is that something that we really have to reserve for another whole conversation? Is there any top of top of line top mind, top of mind, top of mind thoughts that you would have around how you can give people space to think.
Matthew White (54:43.436)
Yeah, I I mean I think from from my approach, you know, when leaders are too busy or constantly in that firefighting mode is is just to ask that question, where are they spending their time? Right. And and when we get into some of the the CI thinking, it's you know, leader standard work, right? Where are you spending your time? Is it value added? Is it not value added? Right. When we think of like the Eisenhower matrix, white right, what's important, what's urgent, what's unimportant, what's unurgent, right? Like how do you how do you start to filter out some of those things?
and I would say that oftentimes when I do leader standard work with leaders, it they're kind of surprised at all the things that they're doing when they have to put it down on paper. Right. And so when we think about the value add and and the things that need to get done, are they the right person to get that thing done? Can is that something they can delegate? Right. So yeah, so I would start with leader standard work with with that particular topic and and just make make what they do visible.
Where where are you spending your time? And it's not a it's not a punitive thing, it's just hel help me understand so that it you know, we can p you know put an action plan to go forward.
Betsy Jordyn (55:52.384)
Now, this is the whole idea around the common good is Matt just had a really great idea. I don't know if Kristen and Deborah had that in their toolkit exactly the way he said it, but now like it's a whole different perspective. So that's exactly why the group needs to come together. And I I really hope those are listening. It's like, let's problem solve this. So as we are moving towards the end of our conversation, I know we can go on longer.
And I have to be respectful of everybody's time. Not I have to. I choose to. I want to be respectful of everybody's time because I have respect for people. but if you were gonna say, like, what is one thing that if changed would make the biggest difference on our collective and our our collective abilities to influence the people centered organizations and leadership that we know is possible? What is like one thing as we wrap up? I wanna hear from each one of you.
Deborah Masak (56:45.164)
I think that, as I said at the beginning, I think we're all trying to solve the same problems. And I think that we often work separately too much. And so I think that just what you just said here, I mean, we just got ideas from all of us on on on a few things that helping people work together better would be a really good start.
Betsy Jordyn (57:11.894)
Awesome. Yeah.
Kristen Chase (57:12.854)
I I'll add to that, Debbie, to say coming together and also sharing what we've seen from our clients that works. So when there are great examples of leaders out there doing the right thing that get phenomenal engagement results on their survey, that have high retention rate for their team members, that, you know, go out there and do good stuff and have numbers to back it up. Wow, what a story. Right. So can maybe maybe we
collect some data since we're all coming together, we have different ways to reach into the organization to collect some information and some stories to tell of the successes and then also the challenges too. Like the leaders that you're like, wow, well, maybe not that, right? So we have the good but we have real clear examples of this is what it looks like when it works, right? When there's good balance, when leaders are thinking both in in the financial sense and the business sense and in the people. Because
They can coexist and we've seen it work. And here's example from all of our collective experiences, right? So
Betsy Jordyn (58:21.614)
That's awesome. And Matt?
Matthew White (58:25.122)
Yeah, Kristen, what you said there just reminded me of right, Toyota's way of thinking about this, which is we develop people who make cars. Right. Look, they've got that they've got that order right. And so when you think about results, right, they they're one of the best, right? And so, you know, how do how do you break that down and and whether it's qualitatively or quantitatively, break that down into business results.
some of that shows up in in surveys and things like that. And some of it does show up in your bottom line in throughput. Right. And so and I and I think, you know, in terms of engagement, you know, we can't have a CI culture without an engaged workforce. Right. And so I think one one thing just from my perspective is you know, how do we create the awareness of this on a broader scale, like we're doing now, and then also more locally in the businesses that we support.
because I think sometimes leaders maybe just don't know what they don't know. Right. And so when we think about the skill sets of OD and L and D and continuous improvement and HR and the work that they're trying to do around engagement, right, is is how do you create that synergy? but I I think it first starts with what problem are you trying to solve and how do we create that awareness at the leadership level?
Betsy Jordyn (59:43.918)
That's awesome. Is there anything else you want to share about people centered organizations and partnering with one another? And I'm just not asking you the right question.
Deborah Masak (59:57.314)
I'll just say one thing about Matt. I liked your comment about you can have a CI team, but you need to have a CI culture to make it work. And I think I could say that with learning and development, probably OD as well. it's the words matter, as you know, Betsy. And a culture is is important, but you can't have that without without the support for it.
So
Betsy Jordyn (01:00:29.228)
Man, what was your phrase about like rooting where you are or something? Like there was you were like it was phrase you got from your wife about rooting like doing something where you're growing where you're rooted, or what was that phrase?
Deborah Masak (01:00:42.54)
Yeah, make a dent. Make a dent where you're set.
Betsy Jordyn (01:00:45.594)
make it down where you're sent. Okay, so it has nothing to do with
Deborah Masak (01:00:47.872)
I remember that.
Betsy Jordyn (01:00:50.574)
Okay. So so I as we wrap up, I wanna just end with that one because I feel like that that's what we're really trying to do. Is like we we have a big elephant that we wanna, you know, that we wanna eat, but we're gonna only eat it once, you know, like one bite at a time. And it's like making a dent where we're set, you know, and that's what we're trying to do is just like figure out what little part of the world we could do, how can we improve the partnering and then see where it goes from there, you know? And I I like the idea is like we can share these ideas. This best practice has work, we can inspire everybody.
And make it down where we're set. You know, do the best we can and we'll see where we'll go from there. I feel like even this conversation is starting the whole process of of greater collaboration because I think that I don't know how many times we put out this type of I would love to have had it for those who are listening. If you're HR, I am so sorry that you are not on here. They there wasn't any HR people who signed up for the common good and they didn't get any change management professionals.
So I would I had to work with with the people who signed up. But anyway, you all belong at at this part. So I don't want anybody to felt left out. But we're gonna make dents where we're sent. thank you all so much for giving the time and sharing your expertise and helping further this vision. this this vision that I had. And thank you, Kristen, for taking the lead on bringing the group together. I think it's gonna be amazing.
and thank you all so much for listening. You know, if you enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to rate and review it, you know, pass it on to your colleagues who also share this vision. make sure you reach out to Kristen and so that you can be a part of all of the future meetings that are gonna go on. And until next time, thank you all so much for listening.
