Betsy Jordyn (00:00.15)
Why is the messy middle a big part of our experience as consultants and coaches and what we do with our clients? Find out on today's episode of the Consulting Matters podcast.
Betsy Jordyn (00:14.284)
And welcome to the Consulting Matters podcast. This is the show for purpose-driven, transformational consultants and coaches who are ready to own the power of what they do and position themselves for the clients, the impact and income that they're meant for. I'm your host, Betsy Jordyn, and I am both a business mentor and a brand messaging and positioning strategist. You can find out about all the things I do to help my clients create thriving consulting or coaching businesses that they and their clients love on my website at www.BetsyJordyn.com. And don't forget, Jordyn is with a Y.
So I wanna talk to you about the messy middle. So I just got back from my second annual in-person working retreat with my client of four years, Katie Anderson. So she and I have worked together on all kinds of things as it relates to her business. So we've worked on her brand messaging, her positioning, her website, and we've been in the middle of working on her second book. So she's in the messy middle of her second book. So that was the focus of this particular retreat.
Now, Katie Anderson has been on my podcast a couple different times, so definitely check out some of the previous episodes with her. But we also recorded on the last day of our retreat, an episode for her show, Chain of Learning, which was all around how to find clarity in the messy middle. So we got into why the messy middle is a part of learning, how to embrace it, and how we navigated through it to help Katie figure out
you know, what's the shape of her next book. So it was a great episode. We have a ton of fun doing it. Definitely check it out on the Chain of Learning podcast. So, and I'll also put the link in the show notes. But because the conversation is about the messy middle, you know, it really got me to thinking about myself and my clients and what make me wonder like, you know, why is this such a big part of not just the work we do as consultants and coaches, but the journey that we go through in order to grow these thriving consulting or coaching businesses.
So I decided, you know what, I think I'm going to go ahead and do my own episode just on the messy middle to kind of piggyback off of the conversation I had with Katie, but also like deepen the conversation. I want to get into the meaning and power of the messy middle, why it's such an important thing that we need to pay attention to in terms of its power and why it's so darn uncomfortable.
Betsy Jordyn (02:33.038)
Also wanna get into why your approach to handling your own experience with the messy middle will actually impact your effectiveness with your clients and how you position themselves for their messy middle and how you help them navigate it. And then we're gonna wrap up with what are the real reasons that clients hire consultants and coaches? So how to recognize the messy middle as the reason behind the ask. So how do you get beyond the ask for whatever clients want you to do or whatever you wanna sell them?
to the real reason why they hire you, which is the messy middle and what it's indicating about the bigger transformation that they're in the middle of. So that's what we're gonna get into today. So as we go through the episode, if it becomes clear that, you know what, I'm in the messy middle or I want to help my clients who are also in the messy middle, but I'm just not positioning myself properly for that, I definitely wanna work with you. Let's chat, head on over to my website.
learn more about my programs and better yet, there's a big button at the top of the nav bar that says like book a call or something along those lines, book some time with me and let's talk about it. So without further ado, let's dive onto the content. So let's talk about what the messy middle is and why it's so powerful and so darn uncomfortable. And to begin with, I wanna be clear on what the messy middle isn't. So with Katie's situation, it's not that she was just dealing with writer's block or
dealing with the messy process simply of bringing an idea to life. So the messy middle isn't just like that struggle that we have to birth an idea, you know, and it's also not what a lot of people teach you about where your business might be in terms of the messy middle. Like, you've just gotten by with referrals and now you need a marketing and sales system to keep you from plateauing. That is kind of part of the messy middle, but not really the heart of what the messy middle is. So the messy middle is that in between plays,
that is part and parcel of transformational change. So what the messy middle represents is there is a current state that no longer fits and a future state that isn't clear. And what's going on is that it's not just begging a change and what you wanna accomplish, but the person that you are becoming. So the messy middle is really about that deeper shift of identity that's at play. And so you know you're dealing with the messy middle and transformational change is really you cannot action
Betsy Jordyn (04:53.294)
plan your way through it, can't problem solve your way through it, you can't project manage your way through it, it's a very different type of transformation that you're in the middle of. So there's a lot of reasons why I love the term messy middle is because it does express like really the messy nature of transformation. So the word transformation literally means changing forms. So if you've been around me for a while, you'll notice that I've got butterflies everywhere. You know, it's the icon of my.
of my logo, you I got my tattoos that are butterflies. I have a real connection to the butterflies. And the thing is, is for a caterpillar to become a butterfly, they don't just simply tape wings to their bodies. They have to go into this cocoon. And in this mysterious place, they literally have to digest itself of everything that is not the adult template of the butterfly. So it's a pretty violent process. So messy middle seems to capture that part. But at the same time,
There's other words for the messy middle that I equally love to express this experience. So when I was in seminary, my professors called that space in between is sort of like the already and not yet. But my favorite term for the messy middle is liminal. So the word of liminal is, I think it's limen, I-L-M-E-N, which means threshold, border, beginning. And I love this word because how it evokes the concept of a journey or an adventure.
So when I first left Disney to start my own business, and I had lots of people telling me step by step of how do I grow my own consulting business. And that really wasn't my main confusion. That wasn't really the roadmap that I was wrestling with or that I wanted. What I really needed is a roadmap to make sense of this whole experience of why I was making a change like this, which I knew wasn't just about my career or even about my life, it was about my identity.
So in this quest for this roadmap, I came across the work of 20th century mythologist Joseph Campbell. And what he did is after he studied all the world's myths and stories, he identified what he labeled the heroic journey or the hero's journey, which is really the template of transformational change in the process that we go through in life, especially at midlife to become the person we authentically are. So even if you haven't heard of Campbell, you for sure know the narrative structure of the heroic journey because it is behind
Betsy Jordyn (07:04.608)
all the movies and the stories that we love, the ones that stand the test of time, know, movies like Star Wars or Lion King, Wizard of Oz, Harry Potter, but even like TV shows like Schitt's Creek or Ted Lasso. So what that tells me about this particular story is it's part of our DNA, you know, and that there's like deep truth in this. And so the story basically goes like this, and you'll be able to recognize this in all of these stories, but the story always begins with part one or act one.
is that you find the hero in their ordinary world. So in your world as a consultant or coach, before you decided to start your own business, you have the ordinary day at the office. So everything's going on. It might not be exciting, but everything's sort of status quo. And then the call to adventure arrives. So something happens to spark the desire for change. For some people, it's a layoff or it's burnout.
or some sort of intolerable job redefinition. For some people, it's just like this existential like, I just want more. I wanna be my own boss. But then there's this other phase that happens as part of this act is the refusal of a call. You know, might hesitate or say no. That's a total major part of the journey is that this type of change evokes something that's very different than anything that you might've done before. So there was always this awareness that you have to go into this unknown. So of course the hero always says no. And then you meet the mentor.
You know, so somebody who's been on the journey and could show the way, you know, and provides some sort of support or resources to increase the chances of success. So that's the first act. And now when that act is done, the hero says, yes, now we're in act two or part two. So now the hero's in the unknown. So you'll see in every one of those movies, there's all kinds of things that are going on. There's all kinds of trials, all kinds of enemies. There's friends you meet along the way. And there's always like these big ordeals, you know, something that
puts the hero in a place where they're like almost like facing death or something like that. And then after they go through this ordeal, they get this reward. And then they move into part three or act three where they return home, they share the wisdom and they leave transformed. And now they pass this information on to others. so you go on this journey is sort of like this public service. And when I saw this template, it's like, my gosh, this is really what I'm going through. And it's helped me throughout my 20 years as a
Betsy Jordyn (09:24.686)
consulting, coaching, business owner, and entrepreneur, is it helps me place what's going on. Like what am I dealing with? And it's like, okay, so am I here? Or am I moving to this next phase? So there's a lot of power in this transformational storyline that helps me place myself in it. But there's other reasons why I really love this framework as a way to contextualize transformation.
is that it's a framework that really spans the test of time. So it's not like somebody who just made something up. It's something that it spans cultures and spans time. And one of the things I also learned in seminary is that spirituality in many ways is hooking our personal story to a transcendent one. And this is a transcendent one. There's a reason why we resonate with it. And it's not an accident that the movies and stories we all love share this framework. As I mentioned, if you go to the mall,
You know, it's helpful to know like, well, where am I relative to this new place? You know, so when it comes to going on your transformation journey, even though the destination is a hundred percent unknown, even though the person that you're becoming isn't a hundred percent known, you know, at least you can know where am I at? And it also explains why we resist it. You know, so this goes to the part of this podcast that I promise of like why it's so uncomfortable to be in the messy middle is that you have to leave the familiar to enter the unknown and our brain hates the unknown.
And the thing about it is in order to go on the journey, you have to leave where you are today. So when I talk to people who are starting to feel like, well, I'm in corporate and I might want to just add speaking. talk to my colleague, Kara Cox, about this all the time is when people start coming to her who are executives and they want to become speakers. like, 10 bucks, that person's getting ready to leave. That they're being called to this bigger adventure that forces them to leave.
And so the problem is you have to leave the unknown, or let say that again, you have to leave the known to enter the unknown before the future state presents itself. That's why it's called the heroic journey, is it takes a lot of courage. And then the other thing about the journey metaphor more than just the messy middle is it sets the stakes, is that you can't move forward and backwards at the same time. So it kind of forces you into some sort of forward movement.
Betsy Jordyn (11:42.302)
And, but what I really love and what I'm really passionate about with this hero's journey framework that I'm talking about and you could tell I'm really excited about it is I think it provides a perfect template for the deeper and higher purpose of consultants and coaches. Because the reality is in every one of those stories, every hero or heroine has a mentor. know, Luke had Obi-Wan, Simba had Rafiki, Dorothy had Glinda. And who is that person in the story? It's the mentor. And who is that mentor in real life? That's us.
You know, so I've said this once, I'll say it again, consultants or coaches are not just people who do work for an organization without being on the full-time payroll or paid by the hour listening ears. Really our true purpose is we are mentors and guides to our clients who are in the middle of this type of transformation. And we are there to help them in their experience with that messy middle. And that is why like they need clarity and structure, you know, because all of this other stuff is going on.
So we don't just help our clients instantly get to the goal. We help our clients embrace this mess and learn. So we help them use the mess to achieve their aspirations and become who they're striving to become. So that is our role. That is what we're meant to do. But in order to be that role, we have to see the bigger picture that the messy middle is part of this bigger transformation story that they're in the middle of. And so we have to know who everybody is. Your clients,
are the heroes of your brand story and you are the mentoring guide. But when it comes to your ability to help them, you have to go through your own journey, which I'm gonna talk about a little bit more in just a second. I want you to reflect on what I just talked about in terms of the heroic journey framework as a way of deepening your appreciation for really what the messy middle is. And I really believe that once you start seeing this heroic journey framework, you're gonna see it everywhere.
Think about all of your favorite movies or stories of all time. Maybe there's a biblical story that you love, or a spiritual story. You could think about the story of the Buddha or Moses or Joseph. You can think about myths like the Odyssey, Disney cartoons. Disney cartoons are filled with a heroic journey. Finding Nemo, Frozen, Lion King, blockbuster movies, Star Wars, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Titanic, TV shows, as I already mentioned, Ted Lasso, Schitt's Creek, also Stranger Things, my...
Betsy Jordyn (14:04.14)
my fall obsession, my fall and winter obsession, stranger things. But what I would love for you to do is just pay attention to the heroic journey framework and notice the pattern of transformation and why the messy middle or the in-between place is where the majority of the action is and why. And why a hero getting pulled out of their ordinary world into some sort of special world is the key catalyst for their transformation. So let's just deepen your understanding of the heroic journey.
And now let's place you in your heroic journey. So that brings me to my second point. To help your clients, you have to go first. So your relationship with your own experience with transformation will shape to what degree you're effective in helping your clients navigate theirs. So it's not that you have to go through the exact same transformational change that your clients have, but it's important for you to have firsthand experience working through the fear of the unknown.
you know, what it looks like for you and how you experience letting go of what used to serve but no longer does, or identities that have become personas that are sort of like holding you back that you have to let go of to step into something new and something more true. So in other words, before you become the mentor to someone else's hero or heroine, you have to become the hero or heroine of your own story and fulfill the adventure set out for you. So with your clients,
you're eventually gonna become the mentor in their story, but in my brand story, you are the hero of my brand story and I am the mentor. So how can you tell if you have really fully embraced your own heroic journey? And it really goes to when you receive the call to adventure for something new and you're consulting or coaching business. So maybe your first call to adventure was starting in the first place, or maybe it was.
building your own brand or pivoting your focus or stepping into more thought leadership as Katie was doing, or next levels of your thought leadership. And although at first you might say no, you eventually say yes, enter in the unknown, let the process of dying to the old ways of doing things and what used to work but no longer does, and the old identity, letting that dying process happen so that this newer identity, this more elevated version of yourself, this truer version of yourself can emerge. So that's how you can tell.
Betsy Jordyn (16:19.788)
I'll give you my own personal story on this. My real heroic journey of business transformation really did not happen when I left Disney to start my first consulting business. For sure, I had to learn a lot of new things to go out on my own. And I had to face what it looked like to get my own clients versus having an employer give me money. But it really didn't shake up my identity. I was an entrepreneur.
you know, long before I became an entrepreneur. Like I literally don't think I've ever had a job that I didn't create for myself outside of the waitressing I did in college. And then when it comes to the consulting business that I built, it was an organization development consulting business. I had a master's in OD. I spent a decade advising executives in a world-class company like Disney, you know, before I started my business. So my identity as a consultant was firmly intact. But, but, but, but.
When I pivoted my consulting business to the brand messaging and positioning I do now, my goodness. Partially it took a long time because I underestimated how big of a change it was, like going from a B2B to a B2C business, and that I had to change the entire markets on who I was. But the real change was my identity as a consultant. Like in order for me to totally let go of this consultant identity,
you know, to become a brand messaging and positioning strategy, it was like, my gosh, who am I if I'm not a consultant? Like I knew I didn't want to just be identified as a consultant. Like I, even when I started my business in the first place, I knew that my identity of, of what I did as a consultant was, was getting too intertwined. Like what I did was becoming who I am. But when I had to let it go, it's like, but who am I without it? So I had to go into this unknown. I didn't even have language for brand messaging and positioning.
you know, when I started pivoting my business. So there was all of this unknown. And that's when I really feel like I went through my true heroic journey. So to help your clients, you have to go first. And when I say that the messy middle doesn't fully capture it is because of the identity shift that is going on. So you're in a similar place. Like you have your own heroic journey. So one thing I know for sure working with clients over the past 10 years,
Betsy Jordyn (18:38.078)
is the messy middle that we go through is really the identity shift like I was going through. So when you go from your nine to five into consulting or coaching business ownership, it's not just about like, I'm going through another career transition of some kind. It's a shift of identity. know, like you're moving from employee to business owner, from leader to consulting or coach. You know, when you finally decide like, I want to build something of my own after getting by with referrals, it's not really a
just a marketing thing. It's not like, I just need to build a marketing pipeline. It's committing to that identity shift that you might not have completed when you first left your business. When you are scaling your business, you're shifting identity again. You're shifting from business owner to CEO of your own growing enterprise. If you're looking at keynote speaking to your consulting or coaching, as I talked about with Christina Madison in my last episode, that's about stepping into this new identity as a thought leader.
So let me ask you, if you haven't fully embraced your own heroic journey fully, why should your clients trust you as the guide to theirs? So this is why the work I do with my clients is never ultimately about the brand messages we craft or the website we build. It's about how those things change who my clients perceive themselves to be. They're deepening understanding of the value that they're bringing the table and how it makes the shift from who they were to who they're becoming.
visible and clear to themselves, then to the market and then to their clients. So I want you to take a beat and reflect on yourself. What has been your relationship with your own heroic journey of career and business transformation? Have you said a full yes to the adventure like Katie's, who's in the middle of her messy middle of not just coming up with a new book idea, but leveling up her thought leadership? You know, have you said yes? Have you been willing to embrace the unknown and all the
inner shifts that come with it and invest it in your own mentor and guide? Or maybe have you just said no to it plainly? Like, you know what, I don't really wanna pay the cost. That's fine, that's an option. But at least you're making a choice. Like you could decide, like I wanna stay in some version of what maybe what you've done in the past that even though you've outgrown it, it feels safe and you're good with that. Or have you said yes with your words, but maybe no with some of your actions? Like one of the sneaky ways that we say yes and no is that we say yes,
Betsy Jordyn (21:00.802)
Like, I wanna have my own business, but I'm not really gonna invest in it. I'm gonna do a DIY website, I'm gonna subcontract and hope for the best. And that's in some ways, I think that it's like, yeah, maybe I'll test this out, but if it fails, it's not really I have a lot invested in it. And I'm not really opening myself up to the identity shift and vulnerability. So just think through like, what make it make a conscious choice? Like which way do you wanna go? I would rather you say yes to your adventure, say no plainly and make a strategic conscious choice.
I would prefer not saying yes and no because that puts you a double-minded way and it's just gonna extend out the length of this whole transformation journey. Because personally, I don't believe that the called adventure and what we really want ever really goes away. So when we suppress it, parts of us just kind of like struggle in some ways with that decision. So those are some of your reflection questions. So think on that and then let's get into the third part of this episode.
And I wanna get into the transformational reasons why clients hire consultants and coaches. So if you're a transactional service provider, the reason why clients will hire you is simple. They have a need for specialized expertise that they don't have in house, it's less expensive to hire out for it. This is the value proposition for fractional leaders, freelancers and subcontractors. And if that is you and that is what you want, that's awesome. There is no judgment here.
But this is a podcast about and for transformational consultants and coaches. And if that is you, you have to know this isn't why clients hire you. And they also don't really hire you for whatever they ask for upfront. They hire you because they feel the discomfort of the messy middle. And that is indicating the bigger transformation that they're in the middle of. So let me give you some examples of the transformation journey.
your clients might be in the middle of so that you can position yourself for these types of client situations and opportunities and partnerships. So one of the most common reasons why an organization or leaders in an organization might reach out to a consultant or coach is because they are growing to a new stage in their life cycle, you know, and they have leadership and operating practices that were designed for an earlier stage and there are no longer sufficient, you know. So if you think about
Betsy Jordyn (23:14.274)
the different phases of organizational maturity. So an organization will begin at the startup phase. So I call this the spaghetti against the wall phase. So they're just trying out lots of different things and see which spaghetti, piece of spaghetti sticks to the wall. And it's like, yes, that one works. I'm gonna build a business around that. So then they move from startup to growing where it's like, all right, I wanna take this business idea, this one that has traction, and I wanna set it up for sustainability and scale. So now they're in that next phase.
And once they get traction there where they've got that sustainability, the scale, now they set their sights on like, I wanna become number one in my industry. So now they're moving into this maturing phase. So then they accomplish that. So then they wanna move into the revitalizing phase. Like I wanna become like the next Apple or the Disney. Like I wanna become this market leader, but this global powerhouse. Like that might be the next phase. So at every inflection point an organization goes through, that's when the wheels start falling off and you know what?
what leadership and operating practices they had, like it doesn't work anymore. So it worked then, it changes. You know, the other transition that's going on during this time period is how the senior leader of these enterprises, how they change, you know, so maybe when they're in startup mode, they're an entrepreneur or a founder, then they're growing and now they become a business owner, you know, then they're maturing them, they become a general manager, and then they move into revitalizing. Now they're a senior executive, a CEO. So whenever they're in those in-between phases,
that's a ripe and prime opportunity that they would look for a consultant or coach. Another reason why clients hire coaches in particular is for career progression. So when they're in between phases in their career, when they're moving from an individual contributor to a manager, or particularly from a manager to an executive, like that's a really prime opportunity for consultants and coaches, particularly coaches, are moving from executive to senior executive.
So when they're in the in-between phase in their career progression, that's when they'll reach out. Another time that they'll reach out to a consultant or coach, particularly coaches in this scenario, is when they are switching in their career and life transition. So could be somebody in their 20s and they're trying to figure out, what career do I want? Or now they're in their 30s and they're like, I wanna really make it with my tribe and figure out how to succeed. That might be the next one.
Betsy Jordyn (25:35.158)
or when they're moving from the 30s to 40s, or particularly in the 40s, they're asking questions, like what difference have I made? What difference will I make? So that's where that midlife reevaluation comes in, prime opportunity for transformational consulting or coaching. Or maybe when they're moving in their 50s, it's like, what's my legacy? What's the difference I can make? What's my significance at the end of my career? So when they're in between those phases, that's a prime opportunity that they'll reach out to help from someone like us.
Another phase of transition that they will reach out to us for is in relationships. So let's say they're single and they want to find their partner. That would be an opportunity that they might be looking for help. Or maybe they're married and they are now looking to have kids and now they're moving and making that transition to going from like dual income, a dual income couple to now being a parent and being able to manage parenting.
Or maybe they're going to the other side where there's a transition that maybe they didn't expect or a little bit more difficult is maybe now they're divorced and now how do I navigate that world? Or maybe the kids have grown and now they're empty nesting. So relationship transitions is another reason why transformational consultants and coaches are needed. Or when you're dealing with business owners like us, know, when you have this, I call it the next level vision and packaging problem, you know, is that
you know, if you're just getting started or building something you're on, whatever it is that you're trying to do is everything I have in place is pointing me to today's results versus what's in the future. This also could be the same kind of an opportunity for career transformation consultants and coaches as your clients are like, Hey, I have this career, but I'm not in love with it. I want to do something completely different, but everything I have in place is pointing me towards today. And I don't have a way to package.
anything to what I want in the future in a way that people will pay for. So that's another transformational reason why consultants and coaches are hired. So what I want you to do now is just reflect, you what is the real reason why your clients need your help? Not the solution they asked for or the process methodology or coaching packages you want to sell them on, but the transformation journey that they're in the middle of, the messy middle that they're struggling to navigate. And then take a look at your messaging and all the touch points your clients have that shape their perception of you and what you do.
Betsy Jordyn (27:51.276)
Are you speaking to their transformation journey or are you speaking to what you wanna sell them on? Are you mirroring back to them in your words and images that you get what they want and what's in their way and why you're their perfect guide? And if not, it's time to work on your messaging. If you are interested in getting more transformational client engagements, if you wanna be positioned in the market as more of that transformational consultant or coach. Now, if you're fine being positioned as the transactional type of person,
maybe that's not as big of a pressing need. So it really goes back to what's important to you and what type of consultant or coach you wanna become. So that's it for the main messages for this episode. Let me recap what we went over. Number one, the messy meso-doll is a great term to describe the nature of transformation. You know, when you're in that in-between space because what you're doing today is no longer working, but the future isn't clear, it's messy. It's like the butterfly in the cocoon, you know, it's messy.
but I still prefer calling it the liminal spaces because of how it evokes the heroic journey into the process and more of that transcendent storyline of transformation that we can hook our personal transformation to. Second point that I wanna recap us on is that there is a sacred role in the heroic journey of transformation that is set aside for consultants and coaches, and that is guide and mentor. And to become the guide and mentor for our clients, we need to become the heroes and heroines of our own stories first.
and it's from this place of grounded experience, not the same exact, we can see our client's heroic journey and position ourselves as their guide and empower them to have the courage to embrace their own messy middles. As a next step, I just think it would be a great first thing to do is just start to notice the heroic journey in what you read and watch and try to connect your own experience of transformation to those stories. Like when you can start to see what you go through in this larger transformation narrative, it will help you see it more in other people.
And if you're in a time of transition, don't go it alone. Experience the value of getting help to accelerate your own journey, which also helps you just in terms of your own results, but also gives you insight into the value that you are eventually and currently providing for your clients. And then just take a look at how you're positioning yourself with your clients. And if you want to be a transformational strategic partner, are you shaping thinking? And if not, what tweaks can you make?
Betsy Jordyn (30:13.506)
And of course, if you need help on any of these things, you could contact me, head on over to my website at www.vetsofJordyn.com and you can schedule a call with me. So that is it for today. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review it. I'll help more people find the show. And until next time, thanks so much for listening.
