0:00:00 - Betsy Jordyn
Hey, are you wondering if working on clarifying your brand positioning and refining your messaging creates revenue? Well, you bet it does. So if you've been thinking that working on this is a nice-to-have marketing exercise or coaching exercise, you know something that you could do when you have like more money to invest in more clients. Think again, especially in today's complex and confusing times. So find out why on this episode of the Consulting Matters podcast and welcome to the Consulting Matters podcast. This is the show for purpose-driven consultants and coaches who are ready to own the power of what they do and position themselves for greater impact and income. I'm your host, Betsy Jordyn. I am a business mentor and I'm a brand messaging and positioning strategist. You can find all about my very customized, highly personalized programs where I'll help you build a business and help you stand out on the market, on my website at BetsyJordyn.com. Don't forget Jordyn with a Y.
So today we're talking about the powerful, rock solid return on investment of your money, your time and talents in elevating your positioning in the market and enhancing how you frame up, describe, pitch and price what you do with my guest, katie Anderson. So Katie's on the show back in episode 35, like over three years ago, when she first became my client and when we first started our work together. You know Katie, she was already successful. She was a Shingo award-winning author of the book Leading to Learn Learning to Lead. She's a sought after speaker and still, despite all of these opportunities, she knew how she was writing and talking about what she was doing, and what she did when she offered was holding her back from her next stage of success and impact. Is this something that you can relate to? Can you relate to the struggle of knowing you have so much value and so much more value you want to create for your clients but not have the words to describe it and how that affects the results you get from your networking or the quality of your offers you put in front of your clients? Your pricing is so much more. And can you also relate to the weighing out like should I invest my time and money in fixing this, when it seems like, hmm, this is something I should be able to handle on my own or eh, that's just soft. This is exactly what Katie and I get into on today's show. So when you tune in, you'll hear firsthand from Katie on the absolute powerful ROI she's gotten from not just investing in her foundational brand messaging, but also we've transformed her approach to landing clients, her online presence and so much more.
We chat about Katie's journey from hourly contractor to sought-after thought leader and premium brand and all the lessons that she learned along the way. So we dive into what are the mindset shifts and the strategic investments you need to make at each stage of growth to propel growth. How to take advantage of the opportunities that you're presented with, such as Katie's husband just had this job opportunity in Japan, which led to much of the success that Katie enjoys now. Talk about my partnership set approach and why it totally beats contracting and sales and how it has empowered Katie to dramatically increase her impact and income. The difference between endorsements and benefit-driven testimonials, and how working on Katie's has actually turned me into a lean evangelist, and the legit struggle that Katie, like many lean practitioners, have with articulating the value of what she did. And we also, of course, talk about the impact on ROI that Katie got when she got clear on who she helped and, more importantly, the problem that she solved. So if you're struggling in any way, shape form with conveying the value of what you do and it's affecting your networking, your website, your offers, your proposals and pricing and it's holding you back.
This is the episode for you. You are going to discover exactly why it's worth your time and money to fix it and if you're an operational excellence, lean, continuous improvement, you are going to love this episode and the bonus one that Katie and I recorded that follows this one. We got very specific to the messaging challenges that many lean practitioners face. Welcome to the show, katie. I'm so excited to have you back on the show. Now it's Consulting Matters before. It was enough already. So glad to have you here.
0:04:02 - Katie Anderson
I am thrilled to be back and talking about something we're passionate about consulting matters and our passion for really helping each other become more effective and therefore growing our chain of learning, too, with others.
0:04:18 - Betsy Jordyn
I love the chain of learning. I can't wait to get talk. I want to talk more about the chain of learning because it wound up in your podcast, since that's some of the output of some of the work we did. But before we get into everything that you did to elevate your strategic positioning, your impact, your income and all that great stuff, I just want to ground us in your journey as a lean consultant who then became a business owner. So can you talk a little bit about your journey from being an internal consultant to an external consultant?
0:04:47 - Katie Anderson
Sure, and I, you know, I think, like most careers, there isn't like a true linear path. But looking backwards at all, you know all the dots do connect together and 25, 30 years ago I would not have thought I'm doing what I'm doing and it's the perfect thing. I had a first career in health policy research in academia, which played out doing, and it's the perfect thing. I had a first career in health policy research in academia, which played out later, but it's not in what I did in writing my book, but it's actually not the focus of what I do now, but it's what led me to working in hospitals and healthcare systems almost 20 years ago and taking on a role of process improvement specialist and then the director of a department that was leading continuous improvement and process improvement initiatives across the hospital and healthcare system, based on the Toyota production system and what's known as lean or lean manufacturing or lean management and we'll unpack some more of that there today and took on more senior level roles in other organizations and then started my own consulting practice to have greater impact almost 13 years ago, which is amazing, and had the great opportunity to move to Japan for a period of two years, which is a lean practitioner's dream and that really gave me a chance to enrich my knowledge and understanding and led to me writing a book with Toyota leader Isao Yoshino.
So learning to lead, leading to learn and then fast forward a bunch of years. Three years ago, you and I met and that's been an incredible part of my journey as well and what how I've learned with you and how it's helped continue to elevate and grow the evolution of my impact in my business as well. So you know, I started off the business, as you know, just doing contract work, then moved to doing more project-based work to now really being a thought leader and helping organizations and individuals at a very different level. So you talk a lot about that sort of that arc of when we make that transition from being internal to starting your own practice, and I've really found that to be true for myself as well.
0:06:51 - Betsy Jordyn
So when you got the opportunity to live in Japan though that was did you choose to move to Japan because of your background, or is it just a fortuitous circumstance?
0:07:00 - Katie Anderson
It was a fortuitous circumstance. I really think it was total serendipity. It was a year after I started my consulting practice, my husband had the opportunity for his job to relocate to Tokyo and I embraced that opportunity with open arms and a learner's mindset to take advantage of that learning opportunity for me, but not just for me, but to share that learning with others. And I knew that it would have positive benefit for both me from an individual learning perspective, but also me from the business perspective of differentiating myself in the market, because I had this different perspective how many lean practitioners get the opportunity to live in Japan for two years?
And so I started a blog I mean, this was a while ago, so over 10 years ago started a blog to share what I was learning. I went out with intention to create relationships and visit companies and share what I was learning from this perspective of a Westerner moving to Japan, and then, of course, developed a relationship with 40-year Toyota leader Isao Yoshino, which was just again serendipity just presenting itself. But I took that and really made it something that's transformed not only me but now has had that impact of helping tens of thousands of leaders around the world too.
0:08:22 - Betsy Jordyn
So it sounds like there was a little bit of like this is what has happened to you. It doesn't sound like you started off your business with like a clear vision, but at a certain point you decided I'm going to set this business with attention, I'm going to differentiate myself because I have this opportunity to be in Japan and I'm going to use this Japan experience much more intentionally. And it seems like that was a huge part of okay, I just fell into having my own business too. I really am going to build my own business and I'm going to be clear on my differentiator.
0:08:52 - Katie Anderson
Yes, for sure, and I feel like there's and, looking back, there has been clear step-by-steps that have happened. I think there's probably been four or five different transitional phases in my consulting practice. So the first was the decision to just take that scary leap from a secure job into the consulting world and there's so many different reasons why this happens for all of us. But I never thought I was ready to start my own consulting practice and it was so validating that before my last day of work I already had conversations with potential clients, which became my first contracting clients, and that was fabulous. So to move into just sort of that contracting hourly role was a really wonderful transition.
Then I moved to Japan and was differentiating myself from thought leadership, continued to do work with some clients and came back and when I realized that, oh, I need you know, I started I just had a blog as a website, but oh, I should probably have a website that has like at least a few landing pages. I know you're a huge advocate for having some sort of website, so I hired, you know, a brand web designer who you've worked with, as well as one of your clients, and she helped me get set up there. So I feel like that was another phase, and then there have been a few others. Then writing my book and publishing my book was a whole nother level. Starting my podcast another level. And now leading my Executive Japan leadership programs and that has been a whole nother level as well. And so I've had to get more clear on my differentiation, my value, my, you know I've grown in terms of my presence out there as a thought leader as well, and those all required both mindset shifts and also the investment into my business as well.
And like a huge mindset shift too, is like going from a solopreneur where you're doing literally everything with designing, your website doing all these, to realizing I needed to hire some people to support my business, even though I'm this only client facing, I'm the deliverer of all the content, but I have five or so people supporting my business in different ways, and that was a huge mindset shift to see myself as a business owner, not just a independent consultant.
0:11:06 - Betsy Jordyn
So that's interesting I love the way you're framing it too is that you went through several phases, not just of your business development, but yourself as a business owner. Yes, so first you were like a freelancer contractor, then became a little bit more of a blogger, and then it's like I'm the CEO of my business and the product might be I'm selling myself, but I still am the CEO of my business, and the product might be I'm selling myself, but I still am the CEO of my business and I need to operate that way.
0:11:27 - Katie Anderson
Yes, absolutely, and I have multiple like products and revenue streams. I have two books. I, you know, I have this Japan experience. I have the consulting, I have the speaking, I have I write articles. You know, like all of those things, there's no way I could do it all if I didn't have people supporting me within the business as well, and that was a huge, huge shift that I had to make. And then, you know, realizing that, like, all the revenue in isn't just revenue directly for me, it's revenue for the business and I'm investing in the business and I have salary that I can give myself as well, and so it's these, you know, money mindset shifts as well, but it's really empowering and it's been exciting to grow as an entrepreneur and to grow as a business person, because I came from the world of academia. Like this was never on my radar, so I've learned a lot and working with.
Working with you, Betsy, has been really tremendous and having that business and branding mindset and also the you know, the partnership partner, partnership setup setup that's lots of words in there. So the partnership setup. I learned bits and pieces as an internal and as an early external, but working with you has really up-leveled things from a positioning standpoint and the way I work with clients as well. So thank you.
0:12:48 - Betsy Jordyn
So thank you for saying that, but you are. You gave me the perfect tee up for where I want to take the conversation now. But before I get into that, I really want to. I want to appreciate the way that you describe the journey of a business owner and how you framed that up and, really talking about the mindset, I thought that was amazing. So okay, so the thing is before. So you and I've been working together, I think for over three years now, and so obviously before we started working together, you know you had a lot going on that was creating a lot of success. So you had your bestselling book, you were a recognized speaker, you had, you know, a lot going on. So what was going on in your business that made you think like, huh, I think I need to work with this type of person.
0:13:31 - Katie Anderson
So it was clear. So we met. It was just as the world was opening up post-pandemic again, in-person events were really starting. So it was the you know Q1 of 2022. And we met at Carol Cox's in-person speaking retreat in Orlando.
I'd been working with Carol for a few months and I knew that I'm a very confident and comfortable presenter and speaker, but that I wanted to up-level my keynote speaking, especially now that the world was opening up, and I wanted to get on more stages, and I have. It's been a very exciting few years of speaking in front of 2000 people in Brazil and around the world and so many more things. But it became very clear to me you know, my book had been out for two years that I had reached another level and I'd been focused a lot on the book and the products I had been making. During the pandemic too, I was I'd shifted from doing more organizational work, which I'd been doing consulting, doing training and coaching for internal leaders at organizations before the pandemic. But what shifted during the pandemic and with the release of my book, which was in July of 2020, so that was an interesting time to publish a book but was what I had shifted to selling and working with mainly individuals. So a lot of my website copy had been focused on attracting individuals to come into group learning programs with me, which was amazing. I had over like a hundred different leaders go through multiple cohorts based on my book and gave me a lot. I created a lot of content and helped them and that was really great.
But I also knew coming out of the pandemic, so I wanted to be on more stages and uplevel my keynote speaking, and then also I realized that I needed to shift back into working mainly with organizations. I could work with individuals within organizations, but then my focus was really around organizational transformation, getting hired in to help accelerate organizational impact rather than marketing to individuals, and that was going to require a shift in my framing, my positioning and my messaging as well, and my website, of course, is all that comes together. And so you and I had the chance to meet. We sat together at dinner and just you had incredible insight from hearing me speak, um, and I knew from that moment that I needed to work with you.
0:15:48 - Betsy Jordyn
Wow, well, I think I remember like that moment, because I remember I remember meeting you and seeing your book. I'm like, well, that's your book title was interesting. I remember you practicing your talk. I'm like that's even more interesting.
And I had a thought like this this is going to be the thought leader in the future, who's going to be like the person who talks about learning organizations for the next generation. Like this is where you're going. Like this was very clear to me, but wasn't clear to me when we first started working together that you were in that pivot from individuals working with individuals to organizations. Like we just jumped in and started working on your proposals and then we sort of backed into that. Like we just jumped in and started working on your proposals and then we sort of backed into that. So what was like creating some challenges, that like in terms of your contracting, that made you decide, like I want to start there. Most of my clients start with let's work on the brand positioning and then maybe eventually we'll get to the contracts and how we're framing ourselves and how we're setting up our partnerships with our clients.
0:16:42 - Katie Anderson
But that was like your entry in so what was it about that need that was becoming clearer to you. Yeah, so, going backwards, I had experience both as an internal organization working internally with organizations, and then my consulting and training work with organizations, but or and I would say it really was on the basis of come do this workshop. It was daily rates or it was like this workshop cost is this much. So it was I had got I'd moved from the hourly rate so I wasn't doing that anymore, which was where I started my business off. So I know you talk about these different transitions, but I really was. I'm sort of stuck in this hourly rate like of type of work and our conversations helped me elevate my perspective and working with you on how to position, I knew I didn't want to be stuck in hourly rates and I knew the value of what I delivered was more. And I had some clients who had paid me significantly more than what I had paid. I just threw some numbers out and they're like oh yeah, that will be no problem for my boss to pay that for a workshop, and I mean literally 10x maybe what I used to charge before the pandemic. So I mean that just shows that where I'd also grown in the thought leadership. Having my book definitely elevated my positioning and my ability. So I want listeners to know too you can not you can just not always just make that leap.
There are other things that contribute to it. But I was not good at I didn't have experience yet with with how to do that framing and that positioning through the partnership setup and the and and writing the proposals. And if you remember, it was really hard for me. I mean, those first ones were really really hard for me. But I knew it was going to be invaluable, not just for me and the revenue it was going to generate for me, but truly for the work and relationship I had with my clients in the ways we were going to be able to work together most effectively to get where they needed to go. So I knew it was a worthy endeavor to go through the hard process and I'm still a learner in this. I still gravitate back to being like sure I can do that workshop for you, but I think about it from a different way. Yes, and let's talk about where you're really trying to go and how does that fit into that.
0:19:00 - Betsy Jordyn
And first of all, I want to validate or not validate, I want to normalize your experience with proposals.
You know, like I'm one of those weird people where it's like, oh my God, I love proposals, like kind of like that geeky and academic side of me is like, yes, you know, because, to me, like the partnership setup process which, by the way, is the way I call sales I don't believe in sales, I believe I don't even believe in contracting, I believe in setting up our partnership.
So, to me, partnership setup is what you do the instant somebody asks for help. That's your discovery meeting or your intro call, whatever you want to call that, and then that leads to your proposal, which is really creating like the tool that allows you to have the conversation and co-create, together with the client, what the right solution is and when you're, at that, closing the deal phase. And so I want to, I just want to normalize, like everybody has this challenge, but I think what was interesting to me too, is that getting you out of like the just saying yes to anything opened up all kinds of new opportunities, like we introduced a impact that you've been able to have when you, when you started holding back instead of just saying yes to whatever you wanted and pitching more of what the client needed. What kind of opportunities that create for you?
0:20:16 - Katie Anderson
Sure, and you know it did help reframe. You know, of course I'm always, always there in service of my clients and I, I'm with you, I a hundred percent behind having a partnership and having a co-created solution, and that's been part of my ethos for, you know, for forever, even from when I was in it. You know, in an internal but I I maybe wasn't as equipped for really setting up the work to be based on the real outcomes that were needed, so a lot of it was focused on what are we going to do, rather than what's the transformation or outcome that's going to have. And so certainly you know so I think there's a difference between, like the coaching work I was doing before to the trusted advisor and so being able to frame that as a bigger package and how to have access and thought partnership, and it really was the intention of what I was doing before. But the framing of it allowed me to position it in a different way with my internal executives and the way I was talking with them. So it's still just position the value better.
Certainly, too, in terms of when I go in and do custom workshops and retreats with organizations, there's more that I've been able to incorporate into that and it's. You know I like the presenting of multiple options and then we can co-create what they really need. But I've incorporated more. You know, pre like assessments and then follow up to understand the impact and what they're going to do with it afterwards. You know they can take content that I've already had or we can create something new that's fully customized.
It's meeting them where they're at, and that's always 100 percent so important to you. You always want to meet your clients where they're at and that's always 100% so important to you. Always want to meet your clients where they're at. But they may not know and you said this multiple times on my podcast Chain of Learning as well about. You know training is necessary but rarely sufficient. I mean, I would say it's never sufficient.
And also, our clients come to us with solutions or ideas of what they want or need, but it may not be exactly what's the right intervention or support. It could be something broader or more specific. And sure, there's a time where they're doing an all-hands retreat and they know they want an inspirational speaker, and so that's a very clear thing. But there are other ways that we can help each other as well. So it really opens. I'm not being I'm not totally answering your question, but I think what it's done is it's opened up the conversation between me and my clients about what they really need and the many different ways to get there, and then we can find something that meets both their budget and also the you know and where they really want to go. And that's, I think, having that conversation also is part of the work, right, it's helping them uncover, like, what's the real problem they're trying to solve.
0:23:14 - Betsy Jordyn
And I like when you're saying it's like there is sometimes where it's like it's a one and done, like I might call that a one off, like you know what they need the workshop but you could still turn that into greater value, like and that's part of what the options were that we worked on is like yeah, I can come in and do this, and it's like off the shelf, or I can do additional assessment and I can, um, and I can do more additional customization. Or option three is I can do that and I'll be your trusted advisor on call as you implement it and what. What I love about like thinking about the, not just like you're thinking about the goals and then thinking about the solution more broadly is like they don't just need a one day workshop, even though they may ask for it, they don't see all the other things. So even if you could put other things on there, you not only create more value for the clients, but you get higher compensation. And the other thing about like the trusted advisor program this is not, this is not specific to you, this would be the other clients that I work with as well on the trusted advisor program is a lot of times we undervalue the part that is the most value for our clients. So having access to you, even if they don't use it, is huge value.
But you might've given that away for free and instead it's an option Like either we could just do this number of coaching sessions or you get this plus access to me, or sometimes we flip it, depending on. Depending on the client situation. You might offer the trusted advisor as the lower program, but still you're giving them additional value and showing that when you work with me in the structured coaching, you know the benefit of that is accountability. When you have the on-call access, well, that's real-time application. So you're creating different kind of value, but you are actually putting value to the things that you might've just given away for free. You might've just done a survey for free, but now it's like it's an option. You know it's, we don't have to do that, you know, and or we can.
0:25:11 - Katie Anderson
Yeah, no, it's. And one of the other things that's been invaluable too and I get this feedback from from clients and potential clients is in doing that. You know that initial, you know the intake call, but also it's part of the partnership setup is doing the situation summary and repeating here, synthesizing in their words what they said, and then some of your own assessment of where that's at. That is invaluable because often it's helping provide some clarity to people like, oh, wow, okay, you're right, that is what's going on here. Yeah, that's right, it's validating. You hear them and then you're also providing an angle of here's some of the gaps. I'm hearing you say is that right? And it's like, okay, so it's helping really define the real problem or opportunity that exists there and that into itself and just is a great skill for anyone to have, whether or not you're setting up a partnership, as in terms, know, in terms of delivering work or just having a conversation to help someone frame up what's needed.
0:26:12 - Betsy Jordyn
So what I'm hearing you say is that having a situation summary, where you're able to help a client clearly see the issues and challenges and put some frame around and put words, provides clarity for them, and that in itself is valuable. Did I get that?
0:26:26 - Katie Anderson
right, that is right. And you're saying you're also listen everyone how Beth is saying that like that is how she coaches you to talk to your clients too. This is what I'm hearing that I get that right and like and giving them the opportunity to say yes or no or what would I adjust there Absolutely, and the more we can provide some of that upfront value, it also demonstrates that's the value you're going to get from working with me, because I have this perspective and so you know I don't like quote unquote selling either. I like showing up, you know, with authenticity and helping people, and so it's not giving away something for free, but it's. It's through that conversation you're showing that through working together, you're also going to have opportunities to have me help you get some clarity in other ways.
0:27:11 - Betsy Jordyn
So just to kind of clarify, to clarify a little bit of the value of that particular skill. So you had said that you have the book and that allows you to increase your fee. So where that fits in is that the book itself like elevates you from an expert status. So it's almost like you have a highly warmed up lead. I've, like I've heard some of your clients when we did work on your testimonials. They would say like oh, she already written a book, like now there's extra credibility. So they're already like hyper warmed up. That's, that's a huge value for it. So then you put the fees against it. It's like, well, that makes sense because they're already super warmed up. But the skill sets around the partnership setup and using that framing and empathy, that is how anybody could increase their fees. Even at that 10x level, is that that gives you the permission to move the client from wants to needs.
So you're not going to be able to say if a client says to you like I want this training program and you like I want this training program and you're like no, I want to talk about what's going on in the business, it's like well, they're not going to go with you and you know if you would say so what I'm hearing you say is you're in the middle of a whole transition and you have a whole big leadership retreat that's coming up and now you want to make sure that this is the most engaging, powerful event that's that your leaders have ever experienced. Did I get that right? Yes, is there more? Yes, and it's going to be the kickoff of a larger transformation. It's like, oh, wow. So what I'm hearing you say is you want this event and as a part of a larger transformation, great. But before we get into that event, let's back up and talk about what's going on in the business.
So when you use the framing and empathy, you validate for them what it is. And now they're willing to go with you and now they'll go. They'll go with you anywhere you go, cause you make them feel understood, like wow, that's so great. And I've seen you like, really just like, develop in that. You know, in that skill and I experience it all the time, just even in our own personal conversations Like I, it's like such a great, it's such a great skill.
I just I'm very passionate about that skill. It's a great skill and I've seen you grow in that and I've seen you grow in your clarity around, so we started off there, but then we started backing up and we started working on your brand messages, we started working on your website, we started working on your content and there was another really key shift and I want to focus on when we move from your clarity on your clients to leaders in general, to operational excellence leaders that like becoming the focus and really understanding the problem that they, that you, were there to solve. Can you talk about that part of the work that we did?
0:29:35 - Katie Anderson
Yeah, you know, and I think it's probably challenging for most people to get more focused to say I'm not specifically talking to everyone there, cause I'm like, oh, but my messages resonate with all leaders and things and you know, but it I. The way I've sort of married it is that it's leaders, whether the internal change, like the change change leaders, whether or not they're external consultants leading change. They're like executives in a change leader role or the operation. You know people in an operational excellence, lean, continuous improvement practitioner or, you know, director of a department role. But the people leading this type of change and helping them get from here to there, how are they influencing that change? And where?
You know, I come from a technical background. I know all that I can do. You know S-Med and 5S and you know all the tools and process and cellular layout. I was trained in all that. But really where my passion lies is the behaviors and influence skills that these types of leaders need to lead change in their organizations.
And so that's what my book's about. That's, whether or not you have authority, a positional authority, or not, the only way you can lead change is through influence. You can't force people to change, and so you have to learn those influence skills, and so it was very clear for me, it was very helpful for me to say this is specifically what I'm working on and my message can connect to a broader audience as well. That's clear for me. It was very helpful for me to say this is specifically what I'm working on and that my message can connect to a broader audience as well. That's okay, but who I'm speaking to are these types of individuals and teams who are leading transformational change in their organization or helping other organizations do so, and that was really helpful.
0:31:22 - Betsy Jordyn
But we got more specific than that because you could say, well, you know, maybe you help, like helping other organizations do so, and that was really helpful. But we got more specific than that because you could say, well, you know, maybe you help, like change management professionals who are going to implement a new SAP system into the organization. It's like that's not the kind of change. It's specific to accelerating the rate of learning. It's about creating the people-centered learning organization. It's that particular change?
0:31:44 - Katie Anderson
Yes, yes. And so what? Under the umbrella which covers many different terms, whether it's lean or continuous improvement or process excellence, but at its heart and this is at the heart of my book too people-centered learning cultures. And that, you know, it's not just the tool side of lean and continuous improvement, but leading with. How do we fundamentally create cultures based on people and learning? Then working on process, and through that we're going to get results and really helping those people who are passionate about that be more effective in their organizations.
And so just, it was very helpful to say that's the person I'm talking to. My message can maybe help. Some of my podcast episodes or other work that I do could be helpful for other people leading change, od consultants, other leaders who maybe don't know that they're really doing lean or continuous improvement. But I'm going to speak the language of the people I'm trying to help and know that there are other. You know there's other layers of the onion. That was really really hard for me to say okay, I'm going to speak to this primary audience. It doesn't mean that my message won't connect with others, but you have to be clear on who you're speaking to and who the primary people you help.
0:33:03 - Betsy Jordyn
I remember when we were going through that work together, there was like a moment. It's like leaders and it's like it seems like it's operational excellence, people like somewhere in the operations world. It seems like your people are and you're like no, and then you go off and do an assignment. You come back out it's like yeah, it's operations Everyone.
0:33:49 - Katie Anderson
And where I got hung up too is it wasn't necessarily about the title like the title or like official role that somebody's the lean promotion office or the continuous improvement department or the transformation department and their team members as well, and so it. I got hung up on the the oh I about the title. But it wasn't about the title. It's about what function and role they're truly playing.
0:34:02 - Betsy Jordyn
And I still would say it's somewhere in the opera, like, like, even as we're having the conversation, like it's only operational excellence, buck, like cause you're not talking to the VP, you're not talking to the chief marketing officer? No, no, no, no, right, no it is, it's everyone.
0:34:14 - Katie Anderson
They're different. What the challenge is is, even within our space, people use different terms to describe, you know. Is it lean? Is it continuous improvement? Is it operational excellence? Is it, you know, culture of transformation? You know it's so, that's hard, but the essence of what they're trying to do within their organization is get the results through building a people-centered learning organization. And that's, you know, with the core of what my Japan learning leadership experiences are about. That's what the core of my book, my books, about, that's. That's where my podcast is focused. It's about helping equip and empower continuous improvement and lean change leaders. And so, you know, no matter what your title is, if that's your role, then that kind of learning podcast is for you.
0:34:57 - Betsy Jordyn
So, and and all of the other things as well, because I think that there's and this is the and I do want to have a separate conversation with you about like learning this amazing field, like no matter what you call it, like I, there's so many things that I did not understand as an OD consultant, and I think it's because you, there's all of these different names and there's so much of a different focus, like, we're very specific around this, but I want to I want to reinforce too, like. I remember one of my favorite projects that we did together was going through your testimonials and trying to turn them into benefit driven. So we had a lot of surveys and we got on a call with one of your clients and he's one of those people like he's one of those COOs who is leading the transformation, and he said why he picked you is. He said she went deep in this area. That relates to what we're focusing on. Like. He said she went deep in this area. That relates to what we're focusing on. He said that gave credibility.
He was looking for someone that's like because she went deep and she's really focused here. Why would we go to anyone else? They're not going to go to an OD consultant like me to come kick off their transformation. There was some, there was the credibility. So then it connects the dots between this is me and you know me as a client and my problem I'm trying to solve. And here's you and here's your differentiator. And what he appreciates is you went deep and he also appreciated that you had experience in healthcare, so that was like an extra bonus. You know the kind of people that you that you help as well, but that but that made it clear for him. You know the kind of people that you that you help as well, but that but that made it clear for him, you know. But your clarified message and your clarified positioning made it clear for him, like you're the one.
0:36:31 - Katie Anderson
Yes, and I could speak, speak their language and speak their context and and help them move from from A to B. So, absolutely, and something I want to highlight too, Betsy, that was really an aha moment for me and I've shared this with other consultants in my network is when we were doing this, the, the testimonial work, was the difference between an endorsement and a value-driven testimonial.
And a lot of times what we have as we get feedback from clients and they end up being these awesome endorsements, but they're really at that level one. I had a great experience. Katie's energy is fantastic. I really enjoyed the workshop. I have some takeaways to do. All of that's awesome. My Japan trips it was an amazing trip. I have some takeaways to do. Like, all of that's awesome. Like you know, my Japan trips it was an amazing trip. It was so well put together the program and the experiences. So that's great.
You want and need that. You want people to have a great experience in the moment. But the true testimonial is that value. What's the impact? What did they do with that? What was the transformation? How did that help them afterwards? And so I think that's a really important differentiation for people listening is how do we help tease out that? Of course we want to get the great endorsements. We love endorsements. The endorsements are great, are wonderful. And how do we then get more of those value-driven testimonials as well? Because even the people we ask and you experienced this as well, you're like your people are having a hard time doing a value-driven testimonial because they wanted to go back to the experiential side rather than the transformation side. So, Betsy, I'm going to turn the script on you. Could you talk to your audience a little bit about that differentiator? I know you've had some podcasts about this, but it was a real aha moment for me.
0:38:16 - Betsy Jordyn
So I'll tell you what. So what we hit on with your positioning is like there's one level of positioning is like how you position yourself with your clients and that was the first thing that we tackled is like how do I position myself when I'm landing work so I can be more of a high impact, high income partner? So at that moment of truth, we kind of worked through that. Then we backed into okay, what is the ideal client of who we're trying to help? So it's these operational excellence type of people, all the other labels, lean, you know, all the other people underneath that continuous learning. We got clarity on that. I think what we were looking for in this testimonial project that we're doing because I went and analyzed it is really understanding what's the context for your help, because it's the context for your help that creates the value. And so what I started seeing consistently what your people were saying is that we had invested quite a bit in the tools approach to lean. We spent a ton of money. We spent a ton of money, we spent a lot of effort.
I, as a lean practitioner, I'm starting to hate lean and because I'm doing this work and it just feels like a check the box. I'm going in and I'm solving problems and now I bring Katie in because she's bringing in the missing piece. So this is what you and I've been trying to tease out to understand more of like what is that missing piece? And it's really around the people-centered approach to looking at the lean transformation. Like that's what people are saying. It's like, oh, it's really shifting their mindset from the command and control to the empowerment mindset. That what was missing. That's why some of the clients that you work with spent like $80 million on a lean transformation bundle toolkit from some other consulting firm and they got no ROI. It was going nowhere. It's because the mindset shift didn't shift and I think that's why your keynotes are so powerful. This is just me speaking, just from knowing you really well. Why the keynotes are so powerful is keynotes in itself, like what they work on compared to other types of modalities. Is keynotes work on beliefs and that's why Japan is so amazingly powerful. Like the Japan transformation experience is probably the best name for it is because it accelerates that mindset.
So the value and the value proposition isn't just like your ideal clients or trying to find how do I make lean sound sexier, like, oh, I want to go reduce waste in the organization. I'm going to make that sound sexy. It's really looking at. I spent all of this money in this transformation and it was going nowhere. Now I have this missing piece. Now we could actually implement it faster. So when we got to your value proposition, it's like I accelerate the rate of learning, I accelerate the ability for these, these leaders, to step into this transformational, transformational catalyst type of role. It's acceleration because the missing piece has been solved.
So the differentiation came for you specifically, if you don't mind me speaking into like what I observed as your branding person. But it's like the differentiation is the context for your help, as I spent a crap ton of money in these lean initiatives that went nowhere because it turned into tools and projects approach. And then what was missing is the mindset shifts that we needed to create for leaders, and then where you're uniquely qualified is your skill sets are around inspiration, like the keynotes are. That's a huge way of shifting it. But then the Japan experience and then what you do from a consulting standpoint is there's probably that's another differentiation there's other consultants who will go in and who will lead all those workshops and do all the you know all of the detailed stuff of a lean and transformation.
But when they partner with you or you get brought in, you're shifting the mindset. You go in and do the mindset shifts. And that's why I think sometimes people undervalue, they don't always connect the dots on the ROI of like a speaking event. It's people walk away with a mindset shift that leads to new choices, new decisions, new actions. And that's why people are like oh my gosh, like, or like seeing the testimonials, like like I'm telling you, like I fall in love with Japan, like the Japan trip. I'm like I'm sitting there, like why am I crying while I'm reading these testimonials? Like like I'm sitting here crying. I'm like I'm doing a testimonial project for crying out loud. And it's like oh my gosh, like it's like it's it's moving people away from like this bad version of leadership that we're just immersed in in this Western culture to this other deep respect for people mindset. People are walking away and they want to do it.
0:42:56 - Katie Anderson
Yeah Well, I know, I mean this is I think this is the challenge that many of us have as consultants, whether you're internal or external is sharing that transformative value that you have? I mean, I just I used to talk to a past participant who brought his clients with me to on the Japan leadership experience last year, and I mean he's talking about how, and it's not that people go from this command and all go for this command and control to this enlightened, but it's like, it's just, it's like everyone says it's life changing, it's transformative, it's enriched, renewed energy, like from a human standpoint, and then from that gives them the confidence and capability to how to go back into their organizations and do that more effectively, focusing on people. What does that really look like? And sometimes you can't. You can theoretically know something, but you have to experience it, and so you know I could.
That's why I'm so passionate about leading these programs too. But well, we can go off on that. But it's true, it's like how do we communicate? And that's where the value of the testimonial too, because we have to get clear on what is the value that we bring. But the more we like, it's better for others to sort of not toot our horn but, like you know, like share that transformation. That's. That's more impactful for potential clients as well. So it's both I think.
0:44:18 - Betsy Jordyn
I think that for each lean consultant who's listening in, you need to be clear on who your ideal client is in the context for your help. So you are the consultant to the consultants kind of thing. So that is your clients. But these are the consultants to the leaders. But it's like what kind of leader and what kind of organization, what size? So, like one of the proposals we worked on with one of your clients is that they wanted to implement a lean transformation because they were going from like a small, a hundred person organization and they're getting ready to scale, and so they were like really animated to proactively advocate for a lean approach into the, embedding it into the organization. Well, the value for that is different than the value for you. So the value is is I'm going to help you scale up your business to the next level faster without setting up those bureaucratic processes that make you know, make your future growth untenable? You know, like you you would say it's something along those lines. Or maybe you're dealing with one company who's trying to streamline their path to to a greater success, or maybe it's like we're here to help you optimize your workforce, because maybe they came from mergers and acquisitions and there's lots of duplication of effort. We just want to optimize it, depending on what it is. So that's why it's important for each one of the lean consultants or any consultant is you need to be clear on who you help and the problem you solve. If you're not clear on that, you're never going to get to the value or your differentiators, because the differentiators come is like. So where we got, came up with your differentiators is we looked at your competitive set. You know your competitive set where those big box firms, those larger consulting firms who gave these off the shelf generic templates you know that. Just focus on that part that that was one of your competitors, your comp, that's your competitor. So we would be able to differentiate, personalize. You know we're dealing with the mindset, not just the actions. You know like. Then we can start ticking off those things you know and then we can figure out the differentiators.
Also by asking people like well, you know what do I do that's different than other people like me, than other people like me. But it has to be within a context, yes, like, I could say my differentiators, well, like my, my differentiators as a brand messaging person. It's not just like well, it depends on who you're comparing me to. You know, like. Are you comparing me to other marketing agencies? Are you comparing me to other business coaches, other business coaches specifically for consultants? You know, like. What is it my, what are my differentiators? It really depends on who you're comparing me to to determine which is based on the problem that you're there to solve.
I feel like I have no competitors really, because there isn't anybody out there who's doing brand messaging and positioning specifically for consultants and coaches. With 30 years of experience in consulting and coaching. You know, but you, but you could say my competitors are, you know, other business coaches who help consultants. You know, like. You know, depending on which way you look at it. So that's what I think is the that's where we discovered your differentiators was getting clear on the problem that you solve the context for your help. They spend tons of money going nowhere, or I've been doing this lean approach in this like tools and process approach, and then you bring in this mindset shift and that's why everybody loves it so much. It's like you're putting like the right fuel in the right car, like it was almost like they got a car and they're just like putting olive oil in it. You know, and then you put gas in it, it's like, okay, now the car can go.
0:47:37 - Katie Anderson
It's like reigniting something they know that should be there but maybe didn't know how to do it, or feeling stuck and yeah, it's what lifts me up and gets me so excited. And you know, Betsy, too, it's been really a pleasure to be alongside you over the last year during your sabbatical, while you've sort of you've gone through your own reflection and understanding and clarification and your own inflection point on sort of who you serve and how you serve it, and I've, it's been a, it's been a joy to sort of you know, we've been partnering, together with you, helping my business, but I've been also there to help sort of hold up the mirror to you about the clients that you really want to work with and the value that you bring as well.
0:48:21 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, like I would say that you played a huge role because, like, I had your Christmas card that I would have sitting out, because I was trying to figure out, like, what is it about our partnership in comparison to, like, I love all my clients? Everybody's amazing, you know. It's not to say that they're all not there, but I'm like, why am I so fricking passionate about? You know, like I'm not a lean person I've never been, I've never done lean. Like why am I so unbelievably passionate about it?
And I think I think working with you brought me back to core, which is like why I became a consultant in the first place. You know, which is like why I became a consultant in the first place. You know, like why, 30 years ago, I wanted to be in this field. And it's like because I believe, like I believe in the vision that you hold around purpose-driven, people-centered learning cultures, like open systems, like all the things that I learned as an OD consultant. It's like this is the way. You know, I don't really care that that it's not popular right now. You know, like respect for people seems like you know, woke or bad, like it's like no, it's, this is this. These beliefs that you and I share are like core values. But then the other thing that you reminded me of is my vision that I've had forever is like I believe in the role and purpose of purpose-driven consultants and coaches, like the role that we're supposed to play and like I wish I could draw this out because I'm like it's the missing piece, you know like, of what it is Like there's like the executives and then there's the managers. So executives are like the kings who make decisions for the realm. You have the managers, which I believe is one of the worst things that we've ever done is that we compare managers versus like leaders and we make managers bad, like they're the seconds you know this, these second class citizens, when they're the heart of the work, like this is where the people, processes and everything kind of merge, but they're like the, they're like the priests. You know where they're just bringing the connection.
And then you got us consultants over here, you know, or like the prophets who have these idealistic visions for what's possible. And it's like lean, is like you're owning this space of, like the heartbeat of making this organization work. Like there's no culture that I can create as an OD consultant or even talk about without lean. Like I wish that. Like now I'm on my little soapbox. I wish a thousand years ago I could have um, I could have known about lean, because I would have partnered with lean in a very different way. Like it makes me crazy that I didn't know about it and so I changed the podcast to consulting matters. Is this role that we have is a very sacred role, like the work that you're doing right now. Like I know, for those who are listening, katie's in the middle of creating a course to help empower change catalysts and I'll let you explain what a catalyst is. But you're you share this vision of the sacredness of our role and our purpose and why we're here. And so you brought me, I would say, our partnership, like brought me back to center, brought me back to core.
I'm not a marketing person. I do marketing, you know. Like I do marketing, brainstorm marketing with you. We all have to do some marketing. Well, no, like in terms of my services, like I technically could be seen in the branding and marketing, but the real heart of what I do is in the partnership setup. It's about getting your expertise used in a way that will create the biggest impact. And so you brought me back to center. That was like you brought me back to center. You brought me back to my purpose, which I think is a lot of what you do with your clients, just by helping you and then processing. Like why am I so unbelievably passionate about this field that I don't have any experience in? You know, like on my last episode I had Tom West and Mark Ryan on the show who are like improvement nerds. I'm like I'm an improvement nerd with you guys.
0:52:07 - Katie Anderson
Absolutely. I mean and this is you know, we're going to have a follow-up conversation to talk about the positioning around lean and continuous improvement in organizations. But it's anyone who's people-focused and heart-centered and about learning. How can it not resonate? So we connect there and absolutely I'm excited and I appreciate you being my sounding board for the new course and it's going to be a book that comes with it, based on a lot of the support I've been giving to internal change leaders and their teams in this lean space around how to really up-level the influence skills that are needed to be paired with the technical side. Like for far too often, we've really just focused primarily, I mean, on the technical side and, of course, maybe we've had a little bit of coaching about oh, it's important to be a coach or a facilitator, but there's so much more about how do you speak the language of business, how do you influence skills, how do you get buy-in and so much more.
And I developed this acronym that was a word that I was already using catalyst with a K, so KA, also playing off of my initials, katie Anderson. But the word kata in Japanese means routine or practices. It comes from martial arts and in the continuous improvement lean space. It's also been associated with the routines for coaching, for improvement or creating improvement and continuous improvement, so often known as the Toyota Kata. Mike Rother and his team coined that term, and so I thought well, a catalyst is someone or something that accelerates the rate of change, but if we can look at, think of it as a catalyst with a K, catalyst with a K it's really someone or something that accelerates the rate of learning as the source of change.
And so I'm here to empower and equip all the catalysts with a K out there in the world to have those influence skills to create change. So not how do we push change, but how do we create the pull for change and inspire and equip and bring people and organizations along with that. And so it's been exciting to build this out. It's the work I've been doing already, but putting some more frameworks and more, I guess, more meat around it to help others. So stay tuned, but in the meantime, listeners can go to kbjandersoncom slash catalyst with a K or go listen to episode nine of my podcast to go hear more about all of that. So, Betsy, you can put some links in the show notes there. But that's, it's exciting, yeah.
0:54:40 - Betsy Jordyn
So if people sign up for your lead magnet or the work, the assessment, the catalyst assessment, will I assume that they're also on the wait list to find out and then to be in the know on when the new program is going to be available and how they can bring it into their organization?
0:54:57 - Katie Anderson
Absolutely. That is something that my team is going to be working on, you know, right shortly after we record this conversation, so that we have that we're getting everyone's information there and keeping you informed of other ways that you can enrich your learning. But certainly, for now, have the podcast, go get that. The Lead Magnet, which is a self-assessment around eight competencies to be a more effective change leader and to catalyze learning in your organization. And, of course, there's more in my book Learning to Lead, leading to Learn as well. So again kbjandersoncom slash catalyst.
0:55:34 - Betsy Jordyn
And if you're like an OD, consultant or anybody who's interested in change, these are the kind of competencies that you would need. So it's still really relevant for you as well. So I definitely encourage all of us change leaders who want to catalyze change. Definitely grab that. The other thing I would want to also like kind of put the little pitch in. You know, if you are looking for the keynote speaker, I would you know. Obviously Katie's an amazing speaker, you know, and if you want somebody to come in and bring you know these incredible learning experiences, for sure. But if you really want to create a life-changing experience for yourself and or an intact team, do you mind if I just plug the Japan experience?
0:56:14 - Katie Anderson
Go for it. I mean, you've seen, you've been in deep and hearing the personal and professional transformation people have in this experience.
0:56:22 - Betsy Jordyn
Okay. So here's what I would say If you are an individual, this is the best way to create, to get the best value from, from the experience with Katie, because you're going to get this full on immersion, immersive, immersive international experience where you're going to be able to make changes faster, like that's the benefit of international in general. But then you have the component of where you're going. You know, if you're somebody who loves continuous improvement, operational excellence, you're going to the core. You know you're going back to the mothership if you will, but you're doing it in a way that you have this container of learning that is different than no other. You know so what Katie provides. Like other people might be able to make those promises, but nobody else is going to put the context around it for you where you're at with your leadership and what you want to create in your organization and or in your consulting practice. So there's like this overall wraparound experience and you get to meet cool people. That's the other thing.
People say that they love yeah, so bring together awesome people, but I would say this for the intact teams so this is something that I would I would say is a very different kind of value proposition.
So you think about all the ways that executives do executive development, you know, so you can go to the, you know the, the resort, and you could have that kind of experience. You know, there's all of those different things that people can do and I think that when you're talking about an accelerator for the relationships of a team, yes, you're going to get all of those other benefits, but the experience, what your participants have said who've been a part of an intact team is they've forged connections that were so deep that they will never get any other way. So it's like, yeah, you could have like a retreat where you just talk about your business theoretically, you know, in a ballroom somewhere in some sort of beautiful resort and everybody has like the super fun time. You know, or you can put it into this learning context and this growth accelerator. So I I would also put the plug, especially for executive teams, that again, the competitive side, what they can go to the resort or they can go to Japan.
0:58:24 - Katie Anderson
Yes, and I'll put one other plug out there. Of course, anyone in the lean, continuous improvement, operational excellence, people-centered learning culture space, but even if you're a consultant or an individual practitioner who just has this deep passion for people and creating positive learning culture, this experience is really like no other. I mean, I lived in Japan for two years and just that opportunity to see the hospitality, to see the culture of excellence, the safety, the continuous pursuit of excellence, but in this caring, supportive environment, is really inspirational and truly transformative. And we have cultural experiences too, to get back to the heart of it, like going to tea ceremonies and we have a Zen Buddhist meditation at the Daruma Temple, and you know, getting back to the heart of it. And I walk away every time just feeling really regrounded in purpose. Um, as a people centered learning consultant, because consulting matters, Betsy, and we have to stay grounded in that. Yes, I know a little good plug.
0:59:32 - Betsy Jordyn
So, um, I can talk all day about Japan, honestly, like and this is some of the crazy part of like some of the work I do as a brand brand positioning person. It's like when I get all excited, like I could talk about your work, probably probably as long as you could talk about your work, but we probably need to wrap up in some way. So we talked a lot about a lot of different things as it relates to elevating your positioning. You know how to, how to make yourself be aligned more with the business outcomes, how to talk about the value of what you do in a more powerful way. We talked about how we framed up what you offer in more powerful ways. So we talked about a lot of different things. Is there anything else you want to tell me about your experience with elevating your strategic positioning, your impact, your income, and I'm just not asking you the right questions.
1:00:15 - Katie Anderson
Oh, I'm going to just put a little pin in there too. That's a great Betsy question to ask to any client as well. To continue the conversation, I think for the purpose of this podcast we really covered so much and really just want to re-emphasize and I think this came out of your hot aha too that as consultants we have different phases in our consulting practice, moving from internal to then external and even as externals. Those different ways that we are working with our clients, that we're viewing ourselves, that we're investing in it, and I love the clarity that you have had that you're helping consultants within those transition moments about how to up-level to the next level, and so it's just a validation out there to everyone that it's okay to be evolving and then sort of take a little time to be where you're at, but know that there's going to be another point of evolution. That requires that deeper thinking, that requires some investment of time and money and effort, but that the reward is there because you're not just branding for yourself or positioning for yourself. It's so that you can help more people more effectively.
Um, and you know that gets back to really why we went into this, this consulting career, is so that we could help people, do you know, do the great work in their organizations or for themselves too. So thank you so much, and I really would love to hear from all the listeners what was a key takeaway you had from this conversation. Um, so, ping us on or, you know, post on LinkedIn or shoot us a message you can. Betsy will put all my contact information below too.
1:01:58 - Betsy Jordyn
Can you do all my intros and outros of my podcast from here on out, Because it's like I love the way you wrap that one up.
1:02:03 - Katie Anderson
I know it's good, so I always ask Betsy to help me with my podcast too. So this is the virtuous cycle of the of the what I call the chain of learning. It doesn't matter who's the client and who's the consultant, you know it's about. We're helping each other grow and learn. So for each of our conversations, we up-level each other, no matter what your official role is. So let's keep growing that chain of learning together, Betsy.
1:02:25 - Betsy Jordyn
I love that and I love the whole idea of the way you framed up like the whole point of why we're doing this, you know, is that you don't work on brand messaging and positioning as a check the box marketing exercise. It's like what Peter Block said. It's like make it easy for people who are looking for you to find you. Like that's all we're really trying to do is connect the dots. Make it easy for the people who want to work with you probably would love the transformation, but they can't see it through all the jargon. So we um, I can talk to you forever about all of this stuff, but thank you so much for being on the show. It is so much and I've loved our partnership and I'm excited that it gets to continue and thank you so much.
1:03:02 - Katie Anderson
Thank you, Betsy, and thanks everyone out there.
1:03:04 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. There were so many great insights from Katie, especially around what it takes to grow success as a consultant, coach, speaker, author and thought leader and business owner over time. I love what she said about scaling up to the next stage, that it takes a shift in your mindset and how you're showing up in the market, which we all know it's not easy. I was also just moved by the tangible value that Katie got from our work together on elevating her strategic positioning. I love the fact that she's been able to make more money and a difference without working harder. I love all that she got, but as I wrap up, I want to be clear on the value I got from working with Katie and working with others like Katie. So Katie talks a lot about the chain of learning. I also would call it also the chain of impact. What's really powerful for me is I get to play a role in helping Katie help her clients. I love to see the people-centered learning organizations that she wants to create and by working with her, I'm able to help that happen. And this is why I love what I do, why I've changed my podcast to Consulting Matters is I really got really clear on my why, and it's to help purpose-driven consultants and coaches really get out there and be positioned and seen for the value that they uniquely can create, because I believe what you do matters, and it matters even more today than ever. I think we are needed in so many different spaces. I think that there are leaders who are wondering what happened to their career path. What do I need to do? They're looking for coaches. I think that there are leaders who are wondering what happened to their career path. What do I need to do? They're looking for coaches. I think that there are organizations who are trying to figure out how do they survive, how do they hold their values? We are needed more than ever and we have to make it easier for our clients to find us, especially now.
So, in terms of next steps of applying this, I hope you're inspired by that, because that's really what I want you to walk away with is. I want you to feel motivated, that you are needed. We just need to put some effort into your messaging to make sure it resonates with your clients today. So, if you were struggling at all beforehand around the before, the market has got all weird around what you, what you do. What's the value? These are the same steps that you would do in any time is you just start with paying attention to the people you're drawn to help and the problems you're motivated to solve, and you just need to ask yourself some questions that are a little bit deeper, like why do you care about these people? Why does this matter to you? What do you see for these people that's possible for them that they don't see yet for themselves? What difference will that change make? You know the real value, the real ROI of this positioning, messaging work isn't a marketing outcome and it isn't even necessarily a sales outcome, like those are definitely things that you're going to get from an ROI, but it's really about the mindset and getting out of your own head and getting into the clients that you serve. This is where the real source of clarity and confidence comes from, so it's really dropping your value proposition from your head to your heart, and that's where the game changer is.
So, if this is something that you need help with, I also have so many resources on my website, so head on over to Jordyn. You'll find lots of free resources. I have a free audio training that will really will help you with your mindset. I have several downloads that you can get into, especially my messaging my messaging PDF. I also have one on the discovery meeting. These are the exact tools that Katie uses to get the results that she enjoys today. And, of course, you can learn more about my highly personalized strategic brand partnership programs.
And don't forget, if you are a lean practitioner, tune into the bonus episode that Katie and I recorded on why it's so hard to get leaders to understand the value of what you do, and we go through ideas on how to fix it. So that's it for today's episode. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to hit subscribe wherever you're tuning in. Pass this on to your colleagues and friends. I'd love it if you take a moment to rate and review my podcast on Apple Podcasts. It helps more people find the show and I totally appreciate it. And until next time. Thanks for listening and have a great day.
