0:00:02 - Betsy Jordyn
Hey, it's Betsy here. Before we get started with this episode, I've got some exciting news to share. I'm finally done with all the changes I have been making to my own brand positioning, my offers, my messaging and my website. I've been working on this somewhere when I was in the middle of my sabbatical, and it may have taken longer than I expected, but I am super excited and proud of the results because I feel like, for the first time, there is no part of me that's missing and there's no part of me that's playing small. I'm showing up with the full power of what I do, not for my own sake alone, but for my client's sake, because this is a big part of the why that drives me. I believe deeply in the transformational we consultants and coaches do, and I know what's at risk when we settle for less than our potential or showing up on the market as those world's best kept secret. Our clients have no choice, when we play small, to turn to other people who are just better getting the word out about who they are and what they do, but just have a fraction, just a small smidgen of the heart and the talent of the people that I want to work with. So I invite you to please head on over to my new website at Jordyn and don't forget, Jordyn is with a Y, not an A Love for you to get inspired by my success stories. Learn more about how I've accelerated the success and impact of countless consultants and coaches. Be sure to check out my services page and learn more about how I've repackaged what I do into a very customized strategic brand partnership so that I can help you accelerate your ability to get to your next level of success and impact faster. So, without further ado, no more talking about that, let's get onto the show.
So what is the power of consultants and coaches, particularly those who work in organizations? How do we deliver results when we don't have formal authority? And how do we live our values around respect for people and our passion for people-centered cultures in the face of current legislation that is creating real, not imagined real barriers? And what is the role of current legislation that is creating real, not imagined real barriers? And what is the role of consultants in social impact? These are deep questions, these are challenging questions and these also are questions that get to the heart of what we do in our true purpose and role, and they don't always have clear and easy answers. So for this reason, I'm so excited that Peter Block, the one and only Peter Block, is here to answer these questions for you today on this episode of the Consulting Matters podcast. And welcome to Consulting Matters.
I'm your host, Betsy Jordyn, and I am deeply honored, deeply privileged to have on the show Peter Block. So he is the author of Flawless Consulting, which is the book that so many of us in the consulting profession see as our Bible, which is what I read when I was a brand new OD consultant at Disney, and I did not realize how much Peter's perspective has shaped my own perspective and approach to consulting until I reread Flawless Consulting over my sabbatical. I invited him on the show because, well, I'm fangirl and also I wanted him to be able to share with you firsthand his perspective on consulting, our role and purpose and what it really takes to create the type of organizations that really serve everybody and serve the common good. So I wanted him on the show for that reason as well. Because, as you could tell, this matters to me, because the title of my podcast is all about consulting matters and what we do matters and how we show up matters.
The question is is how do we fulfill our role and purposes today, with leaders who are even more stuck in the short-term thinking with the current external pressures, and how do we stay the course for greater good? So all of this, and more, is what Peter and I discuss. Okay, so, without further ado, it's my deepest, deepest honor, career privilege to have you on the show. Welcome to the show, peter. I'm so glad you're here.
0:04:12 - Peter Block
Thanks. Thank you, Betsy. Every invitation matters, and yours especially so. Thank you.
0:04:19 - Betsy Jordyn
Thank you for saying that we need to start our conversation with. I know where my listeners are at and where my head was at when I first thought about it is the book Flawless Consulting. It's a classic. Anybody who's been in the consulting space looks at it as their bible. I would love to get a little bit more into your head around, like why did you write the book and like what were you hoping to shift in thinking what people were thinking about consulting? You said that there was certain things that you were ideas that you were synthesizing. What ideas were you synthesizing and what were you trying to put forth in that book?
0:04:52 - Peter Block
I had spent 15, 18 years in organization development and we started early. We did team building and we worked with bringing people together and I started giving talks about the work we were doing and this guy started asking me to write a book and I said leave me alone, I talk, I don't type, Leave me alone. Four months later, another talk on consulting skills ASTD, because we were running workshops there, so we had translated into experiences, which was the point, and finally he said I'll give you money if you write the book. And I said you got yourself an author.
0:05:36 - Betsy Jordyn
Wow.
0:05:37 - Peter Block
And so I wrote the book and I was very unsure that what I had known in OD was translatable to people doing staff work in the real world. The influence of the book came from my own participation in Gestalt therapy and where I live in my head I don't have a body. And when I went into Gestalt therapy they sat me down and said Peter, how do you feel? I said what do you mean by that, peter? How do you feel? What do you mean by that, peter? What do you want? I don't know what you're talking about. And I got the point that experience was different than analyzing experience, and it had a huge impact on my life. And so that became my practice and I realized if you ask people what they want from each other, it's a whole different experience than if you ask people how they think about things. Hmm, they analyze. Now Gestalt had a very crude word for that, but we can call it intellectualizing is different than experience and being with somebody. And so I took the word from Gestalt therapy and a few other places that was my own healing and said well, let me write the book for this guy.
And then I was working at Exxon ESSO at the time and all my clients were IT people and engineers. So I said let me write this for engineers, and so I really tried to make it accessible for people uninterested in everything else I was doing. And I was very nervous that my peers in OD would say Peter and the model was a cookbook, would say Peter and the model was a cookbook. And so my goal was to put a lot of boxes, a lot of steps, a lot of white space and make it easy. And once I finished it I was embarrassed. I hope my partners don't read this because they will discover how ridiculously practical I am and somehow I've asked myself why. It worked okay, and I think what it made? It makes very accessible the process of contact, relationship being the essence of contact, relationship being the essence of influence and real, authentic, making a difference.
And for the IT people I was working with, that was a radical thought. The guy who ran IT for ESSO came to us and he says we would do all these studies and we're not wrong and nobody does anything about it. What's going on here? And so we began running workshops for his IT people with the ideas of why aren't people acting on what they know and what you know? And that's kind of how the thing began was to say, well, what you don't? And that's kind of how the thing began was to say, well, the relationship is the delivery system for my expertise and that I somehow gave form to that. That was useful and simple enough to be accessible.
0:08:57 - Betsy Jordyn
Could you say that again? My relationship skills are the delivery system for my expertise.
0:09:03 - Peter Block
Yes, by our relationship, you and I right now, Betsy have content we want to bring. Okay, how you and I are with each other will make it real or make it a speech. So every time I'm with a client, I need to connect with him, and so the methodology and then we turn it into workshops and stuff is to ask people how do you feel about working with me IT? People don't do that. Now they do. Ask people what doubts do you have about how this is going? Nobody does that. Now they do ask people oh, tell me what you're up against. Do you have about how this is going? Nobody does that. Now they do. Ask people oh, tell me what you're up against. And when people give me a hard time, tell me have you?
0:09:55 - Betsy Jordyn
done this before you know where else has it done?
0:09:56 - Peter Block
What has where? They want evidence and data. I don't answer the question. I say you have doubts about whether this is a good fit, don't you? And so traditionally I would sell. I've worked seven different places, three different things. My job in selling is to help them make a good decision.
0:10:22 - Betsy Jordyn
It's like we talked before we got on this call. It's crazy for me to hear this like I have chills is that I? I knew that your book had influence. I had no idea, like my entire philosophy, of every single thing that I do as a consultant and as a branding person, even my entire project. I never call like what we do in as when we land work. I never call it sales or even contracting, I call it partnership setup and I think because that idea that you had so many years ago around, it's the relationship.
I am the agent of change. That's why I like to me, personal branding is so important. It's like I am the agent of change. It's not my methodology, it's not my expertise, it's me and I just I'm so like. I'm like in all, like I understand what you're talking about at a very deep level, like that's, that's really powerful. And I think what's so interesting, as you say it, is that message might have been radical, like when you wrote the book, but it's still radical today. Like people still don't get that the role that we have as consultants is not about our expertise, but it's about how we're showing up. Why is it that this is so hard for so many of us to see and appreciate. It's the relationship skills, it's our consulting skills, more than our expertise, that matters.
0:11:40 - Peter Block
I have a good friend who's a venture capitalist and he worked for J&J and then he went on his own. I'm talking to him and he says you know, when they decide to invest or not, they look across the table and ask themselves who is this person. And that's so. It's not just consulting, but it's uneasy to focus on this and and it's so, it's simple, but it takes courage and I, you know, what you said about selling is very important. We were in business for years. Tony and I started OD stuff and we felt we were horrible at marketing. So we brought in a marketing person and we had a focus group with our customers and we asked them why did you hire us? And they said because you didn't seem to give a damn whether you got the job or not. Uh-huh, and we thought we were bad at marketing. We were great salesmen. Because we didn't seem to give a damn whether you got the job or not. Uh-huh, we thought we were bad at marketing.
0:12:50 - Betsy Jordyn
We were great salesmen because we didn't give a shit. You know, I had a situation like that when I was new into consulting. There was a situation where I was in the process of a conversation with a client and they were setting up a get-out-of-jail-free terms. That was not going to be in the company's best interest. It could have been mine. They were going to pay me quite a bit, like per month, and I said no, I'm like this is not in the best interest of the client. You know, this is not in your best interest. I have to say no. And then you know, a couple of years later then they brought me back in. I'm like I don't understand. I said no and they said it's because you said no.
And I think that there is something about the ethics of our work is, when you go in with this belief around like I just am here to be of service and if I'm not the right fit or if this is not the right thing, I don't want to do the work. I think that actually increases trust and credibility with your clients. Would you agree With?
0:13:42 - Peter Block
your clients, would you agree? It's beautifully said. I more than agree it's beautifully said. And it's not that I don't care, I want the business. But if it's not good business, it's bad for business. Right? I figure someday all the clients will talk to each other, just like I figure someday all the children and wives will talk to each other. And the worst thing that can happen to me is when they plants all talk to each other. Okay, it doesn't. They had doubts about me, and so I feel it's in my interest to say no to jobs that I don't think are going to work.
Uh-huh, and it's hard, because you know we had to face the decision. Do we want to grow a consulting business? You know, all I wanted to do was make a living and we decided not to. You know, a lot of people were going and had 50, 70 consultants. Tony and I said let's have five or six, because what's the point? We're making a good living, but the culture is so present. Sales growth speed, replicability, sales growth speed, replicability, evidence-based None of it works. It's just appealing.
And so that's why we need each other. That's why we're having this conversation, Because this afternoon we're going to be in a situation where we're going to have to remember what we said to each other.
0:15:32 - Betsy Jordyn
I have so many things I want to ask you about, because I read Activating the Common Good and there was something that you said about being the roving listener that I really resonated with and I know I'm going to jump ahead a little bit and I'll jump back into Flawless Consulting, but I do feel like that that's a big part of like what we're trying to do is that there's room for all of us, all different kinds of consultants, and if we have that scarcity mindset like I have to grab the business, like and I don't see that there's a bigger play with different kinds of gifts that I could bring to the table, can you just quickly bring in the roving listener and then we'll jump back into Flawless Consulting?
0:16:11 - Peter Block
There's no forward and backward. We don't have a map and ground we have to cover. Okay, dillon Hargis worked for a church in Indianapolis. Dm and Hargis worked for a church in.
Indianapolis. And the pastor there was wondering whether they were making a difference, as too many kids in his neighborhood were being buried. And so he said maybe the programs we're running are not healing and helping. And so DM and so Diemen lived in the neighborhood. He said would you go knock on doors and ask people what they're good at, what their gifts are, what do they love to do? And they stopped their programming, stopped their sports competitions in the summer. It wasn't saving lives, it was popular. And Demon came back after a while, six months or so, and he says well, they love to fish, they love to take care of kids, they love the community garden, they love to spend time, they're good at fixing things. And he said okay, this church is going to organize its outreach according to the gifts of the people around us. And it made a huge difference.
And so that's the tension between selling something. And so and Diem is, you know, he's 25 years into that and now he builds his neighborhood and when philanthropists want to come, he says to them thank you for your interest, because it's a vulnerable neighborhood, but we're not sure we want to work with you. Would you please come to dinner? This is to the Ford Foundation. And they do. And they come to dinner, get friends who know how to cook, invite him, say this is so and so, and I'd like him to get a sense of who we are. Changes everything and then show us what you think you can do. Philanthropist and inverts everything. And so Dillon shows up as a partner and he has no trouble raising money.
0:18:31 - Betsy Jordyn
It's like we're all designed uniquely and I think that this is a big part of like what I'm passionate about, like why I gave up consulting to do what I do now, is that there's so many of us with so many unique skills and I think that we all can serve the same organizations or different organizations, and I think when you move into the gift realm, you move out of scarcity is that there's abundance because there's a whole purpose for everybody and we all have a place.
0:19:05 - Peter Block
Yes, and we get connected and we don't have to compete with each other. Even a consulting business when I was selling, say, well, we're talking to three other groups and I say, well, they're amazing, enjoy yourself. I choose not to compete. Well, there's enough for all of us and the scarcity is a means of controlling people. It's not by accident, it's not because original sin kind of found a market in the church, it's because it's easy to control the world if you convince them that they should be afraid and we start competing in the first grade. It's a market mindset. That's fine for the market, but it should dominate who we choose to be together and what you're saying is somebody said you might as well be yourself, because everybody else is taken.
0:20:03 - Betsy Jordyn
I love that.
0:20:05 - Peter Block
But we do it to make a difference in the world. We do it both to connect, to overcome my isolation Let me know I'm not crazy but it doesn't become powerful unless we say now what do we want to do together? All right, let's see we had this conversation, so let's keep each other in mind and in neighborhoods and in businesses, they don't focus on tiers building trust with each other and deciding now what do we want to create which is an abundant enough mindset, and stop saving from performance appraisals.
0:20:48 - Betsy Jordyn
I wonder. You just said the word control a couple of times and I wonder, like underneath it, for those who are not familiar with the term flawless consulting and what you mean by that, and you know what what the value is is it really about having a different relationship with control and power? And and not necessarily because I think like consultants wind up feeling like I have to grab at something because I have to, like I have, I want to create results, but I have no authority, so now where do I get my control? Is there something that has to do with like flawless consulting and how it relates to our relationship with power and control, or is that they're two totally different concepts?
0:21:25 - Peter Block
No, I think it says influence when you don't have control, what they don't know. Everybody listening? I hope not. Nobody has control. Yeah, it's an illusion. You're the boss, you're the president. I once worked with a large food chain. I met the CEO. Hi Hi, my name's Peter. He says I can't get them to thicken the damn ketchup. Here I am, this corner office. So control is an illusion. You need order, you need structure, but the idea that I can control human behavior or even technology, it doesn't work very well. It's just appealing.
0:22:20 - Betsy Jordyn
So you're saying even the executives don't have control? That's an illusion, as much as the consultants who feel like I don't have a role on the positional. I don't have a positional authority. I need to help the people who have control and they don't even really have control.
0:22:33 - Peter Block
They don't Well. They can't make a product work Right. They can't deliver a service. The chef knows everything about cuisine and the servers decide whether I come back or not. The line cooks decide whether I come back or not, so I'm the chef and most chefs that start businesses. It doesn't go well because they think they have it, and so control is different than impact, and you know they do have some power, and I like hierarchy. You need bosses. Somebody's got to look at the whole picture and tell us what the focus on. But the idea that we're controlled by measuring things by outcomes is an illusion. It's just satisfying.
Now they do have the power to fund or to say no, but they have the power to stop things, not to create things.
0:23:36 - Betsy Jordyn
So is there a difference between power and control?
0:23:39 - Peter Block
And if so, what are the?
0:23:39 - Betsy Jordyn
differences.
0:23:41 - Peter Block
Well, it's power. With power you can work with, but you know it doesn't matter. The with is what matters and the best executives realize that they've got to be present, and it's rare, it's hard. The news media, the journalism world, makes money off the illusion of control. Who's in charge? The corner office? Most of what the corner office does is manage the news.
0:24:15 - Betsy Jordyn
It's like processing what this looks like to have power versus control, because it feels like like if I am connected to, whether I feel empowered. I feel like that there's a thematic element you know across the books that you write is like about where the empowerment and agency.
But control, like the, even your model around resistance is a massed expression of loss of control or vulnerability, and it's a mass expression over something that is an illusion to begin with, like that that you don't have control to be. You don't even have control, but we want to have control. And even like some of the clients that I work with, it's like okay, I don't want to go into consulting because I can't control my future. I'm going to go get a job, but there's no control over there either, because you can get laid off like that. But empowerment feels like like, if I, if I own my power, own my agency, I can, I can make my future how I want my future, which is different than I can control my future. It just feels like there's a really important distinction, but I'm not quite sure how to describe the distinction here.
0:25:20 - Peter Block
You just did.
0:25:22 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh, I did Okay.
0:25:24 - Peter Block
Let's take this moment. This is your podcast. You're in charge, that's it. I'm your guest. How much control do you have over how this is going to go? You're going to make it as wonderful an experience as you can, but you know, hopefully it will go well, but you can't any time. There are people involved. And what you said about agencies you know I am responsible for my life. It doesn't mean it's going to turn out well, mm-hmm. But for me to surrender to the corporation, I do it for safety, okay.
And I always think there's two lines, you know. One offers safety, the other offers freedom. And the line with safety is very long and you get to the front and they say you want your safety? Yeah, and they go. Well, what do I have to pay for that safety? Well, you give up choice, agency and influence over your mind. You up for that, Absolutely. Could we talk about retention bonuses? I mean, you said it beautifully. The other line is freedom and agency. My life is my own and the price I pay for that is anxiety.
0:26:47 - Betsy Jordyn
And it's empty.
0:26:49 - Peter Block
That's an illusion of safety. You know it's a parent's wish for a child and people say I'm proud of my children. Really, did you? Are they? Are you taking credit for them? I know you brought them into the world, but if you ever raise children, you know. So let go of that. And it's fine for seven-year-olds I want to control how they spend their afternoons, but not 22-year-olds, and so the whole parenting thing, what you said was beautiful. You're right, it is a distinction and we have a choice.
And what the consulting does, it gives shape to what a choice feels like and when you feel it and do it in a workshop, you realize it rewards me in ways I didn't know were possible, like one of the things we do in the workshop is we have people sitting in front of a video Now it's a iPhone and videotape themselves saying what they want from key people that they work with. I want you to stop this. I want you to start that. I want you to keep this, keep this and then we stop it. Give them two minutes and then we have them watch it.
And they were the group of three or four other people all watching and we asked them what did you like that you saw? Well, I should have, I should have. No, what did you like that you saw? Well, I should have, I should have. No, what did you like that you saw? And as soon as they say that and see that something shifts and they realize I'm not too much.
I declare the world what I want. I can't live without telling the world what I want. I can live without getting it. I can't live without telling the world what I want, I can live without getting it. And so we use the experience of a circle of four people and then the other three or four people say well, here's what we liked that you did. And once I see that then I'm more willing to enter the world as an agent, as a relational activist, as a consultant, have influence with no control.
0:29:05 - Betsy Jordyn
So it's sort of like, even as change agents we go into an organization and we have our own resistance because we have these theories about control, that there's like this myth that we have can control. And if we could shift the myth of control to power and empowerment and vulnerability from the standpoint of like it's a skill, like vulnerability is a skill that you could develop, if I could kind of flip to that point and I'm willing to be in that space, then I can create more of the impact, the influence, more directly. It's almost like you as a consultant have to go first, do your own work before you even try to touch the system, because if you're kind of in that zone, you're not going to be able to really affect anybody else. I don't know if I'm hearing any of this correctly or am I going in a different direction?
0:29:57 - Peter Block
You're such a fool. What you said is perfect. Oh good, Every time you say something, you say what's wrong with me? Nothing. You may not be right, but there's nothing wrong with us. You're right, and we do it because that's the way to make a difference.
And even the word change agent is a collusion with the patriarchy, a collusion with the control. You know we're partners, you're a consultant, you're in the service business, but am I an agent of? Whose change am I an agent of? And it always made sense to me to say, well, I resist coercion, I don't resist change, I'm waiting for my transformation. What you're offering, Betsy, to the world is the notion that for people in the consulting world, of whoever you're with, you're looking for people, looking for you, and some people aren't. And you say, bless you, I wish you well, it was good being with you. And then you find people that have been looking for you and you say, well, what do we want to do together? And I always felt in the years I was consulting that I was looking for people looking for me and that what I wrote about was what they taught me.
0:31:29 - Betsy Jordyn
I love that. I feel like you just summarized the whole mission of what I do is helping people look for the people who are looking for them and create that authentic relationship, the collaboration and and so that you can make a bigger difference, because we each have different roles in the whole kit and caboodle and I. One thing that I'm really clear about when I was a consultant and what I teach my clients is that there is a leader and it's not you. You know they're there and you're there to come alongside, enhance their capacity, enhance their decision-making clarity and all that kind of stuff. And I think anytime we kind of like want to jump over, like I think you called it, like there's the pair of hands trap and then there's like the expert and then the collaborator in the middle. You know why do we want to jump in as the expert in the pair of hands versus being the person in the middle?
0:32:20 - Peter Block
Yes, I got that from Ed Shein years ago. Part of it. We have to deal with their expectations. Their expectations are very low. What are you an expert in? Here's what I want you to do. Will you do it? And so people rarely are looking for a partner, but I could still show up that way Right Halfway through every sales call, and I'll do that now with you. How is this going? Are you getting what you want? So we're used to processing the world after it's over. How did it go? It's too late, you know. So let me ask you how is this conversation going, Betsy?
0:33:16 - Betsy Jordyn
Do you get what you want? Yes, conversation going, Betsy, you get what you want? Yes, I'm. And then some, I feel like I I'm like at the feet of the master in a way, like it's. It's just so interesting and validating, um, and illuminating too, because there's some concepts that it's like, okay, it's like you're forcing me to and not in a good way to kind of like there's all these ideas that I had shaken around in my head. Like I have a real problem with employee engagement. Let's just take that one, for example.
Like I think a lot of the ways that we think about employee engagement feels like almost unethical, because it feels like we're treating, you know, employees like children.
You know like, oh, I need to make sure I give them a friend at work and they have a boss who knows their name and you know, but we're not going to give them a voice in the work that affects them. You know, like that, you know, and we're not going to. You know, we're asking them to give up their hearts and minds to this organization that has no limbic brain for them to even attach to, there's no real security, and it feels like there's an alternative model that we should be having that provides maybe not employee engagement, employee empowerment or employee agency, employee ownership, you know, but the field is not going in that direction. That's not what the employee engagement surveys are. You know people who are trying to create these people-centered organizations.
Outside of my new lean I just I'm newly discovered the whole lean world from the Japanese roots and it's like that feels like more in alignment with what the organizations are supposed to be like there's real respect for people. But there's so much of this other like modern western approach to employee engagement that doesn't feel 100 correct to me. Can you speak to that?
0:34:49 - Peter Block
it's a marketing strategy, how do we act as if we care about people's point of view, and the quality movement was a real embodiment of that. But other cultures I know, if you travel around the world, this one's the hardest to work in, okay, and I've been to China and I've been to Singapore and I've been to all these places that you know, you know, you know, culture, culture, culture, germany. And so what you said was beautiful Employee surveys are useless unless you ask them about themselves.
So if I cared about it, I would say to the employee I don't care about how you feel about your supervisor or the company, or do you feel cared for? I don't want to know how good a parent we are. You said it beautifully. I want to know how much choice do you have? And do you take over the way you like to work. To what extent do you feel you're competing?
0:35:50 - Betsy Jordyn
with your peers or learning and engaging them.
0:35:55 - Peter Block
To what extent are you willing to acknowledge when something goes wrong? But use the survey to get them talking to each other. There's nothing you can do with survey results and we're being bombarded now. Everybody who wants to raise money from me for a campaign begins with a survey Okay. And the survey says do you believe the sky is blue? Do you feel that you're standing on the earth? Good, would you donate? And I write back stop this.
And the employee surveys is a marketing strategy to give the illusion that we care about our people. I think, by and large, they do care about their people. It's just that they need you to give them the means to express it in a more powerful way, because and we can do that Every person listening, every client you have and we have in our workshop. Wherever I am, I always have a choice as to how I want to show up there, and once in a while, I can actually design it, and I used to do this. I used to give keynotes okay to give keynotes. Okay, podium, high fees, microphone. I'm standing, they're sitting. Okay, here's Peter, keynote speaker, and after eight minutes I would say thank you. I'd like to break you into groups of three and answer the following question why was it important for you to be here today? Come back in eight minutes. That's not what we came here for. We came here to listen to you. I know I didn't come here to meet your expectations, because I know it doesn't work.
0:37:53 - Betsy Jordyn
Right.
0:37:55 - Peter Block
So each of us can do that. Whatever gathering we're in, get people to address questions they're not used to having. What doubts do you have about what we're doing? There's no place for dissent in a plantation or a high control culture.
0:38:12 - Betsy Jordyn
So that's the evolution from flawless consulting to some of your later work was moving more to the collective, having the conversation, the participation. That's where the thinking has evolved since Flawless Consulting. Yes.
0:38:32 - Peter Block
It began with my stepping out of the corporate context after 30 years and deciding maybe there's another place to be that would make more sense to me.
0:38:45 - Betsy Jordyn
So it seems like you, like Meg Wheatley, like it seems like people have been on our field for a long time Seems that we wind up like with some sort of like spiritual perspective and a systems point of view that goes far beyond organizations and we have, like this vision, for you know what, what the systems of the world can look like, and and it seems like you have a very clear view of the systems or how we can create the systems of the world. I would love for you to explore, expand a little bit more on activating the common good. Like or just like kind of do the breadcrumbs from Flawless Consulting to Activating the Common Good, and if you can share a little bit about the common good and what you mean by that, because there's a common good perspective versus the business perspective, and what does that look like and what's the implication for consultants. I know I just threw like tons of questions at you, but I think like number one, like the breadcrumbs, like from this book from Flawless Consulting to Activating.
0:39:41 - Peter Block
Let me complain. I don't talk about a systems perspective, because most of the systems we have aren't working very well the electoral system, the council system, the mayor system. They're not working, and so I don't. But the crumbs are that over time, you begin to believe in what you always wrote about. It took me decades before I. It's not that I didn't believe it, it's just that you thought well, I wrote a book and it sold. How lucky am I? And then you write another book, and so my early context was organizations and empowerment, and you don't know what the book is until after you write it.
0:40:38 - Betsy Jordyn
That's interesting.
0:40:40 - Peter Block
The reason you write a book is for me to understand what the hell I'm trying to say. And so stewardship was giving up choice, but it was still focused on the leader versus manager manager. And then I context just widened and I think I got invited to give a talk to some change-minded city managers and I fell in love with them.
I said oh my God, they're not interested in utilities, they're interested in citizens engaging each other to make the place better. And they started inviting me, paying me to come to their cities, and they put me in with a hundred citizens. Okay, peter, hot shot consultant, and I realized that they had everything they needed with each other, and the city managers were beautiful. They believed in citizenship. And so you begin to realize. And so then I wrote a book on community. I tried it and I realized there's something going on in communities. And so the other thing I learned was arguing doesn't work. And so whenever you write a book, it's because you're mad at something. And so the first 40 pages, are you putting your anger into words on a page or on a screen?
And they say, okay, now I'm ready to write a book and you extract all the anger, and so it doesn't work to say these people are wrong. And the last book is my frustration that the common good is what we care about. I wanted to call the book we Are Not Divided. It's not that we don't see the world differently, but it's not the point. I don that we don't see the world differently, but it's not the point. I don't care how you see the world, I care what we want to create together, and so I've done enough work in different domains to realize there is a whole movement out there of churches caring more about the community than filling the chapel.
Churches caring more about the community than filling the chapel. There's architects wanting people to connect with their neighbors rather than going seven stories and maximizing income from an acre. There's police who says my job is to keep people out of the judicial system and you say, oh my God, and so the activism. Anytime I'm waiting for someone else's transformation when I worked for companies. But you want to meet with the CEO, you want to meet with the board, you want to meet with the top management, I say, why would I want to do that? The only reason is it makes the sales call more efficient.
0:43:36 - Betsy Jordyn
Right.
0:43:36 - Peter Block
But I don't believe the top has the power. They may have the will, but they fundamentally create the kind of common and the things we care about. So I just wanted to give expression to that. And the things we care about are how to raise a child, how to be safe, how to be healthy. You can't outsource those things. I thought I'd get schools that raised my children. We'd ask the school building to do everything, and so the whole idea is how do we, you and I in a place, decide what we want to do to care for these children, to keep each other safe? The more social contact I have and there's data on this, that says my work with Association of Life when I put 100 hours a year into working with something, some cause I live two years longer. What, what?
0:44:36 - Betsy Jordyn
So you know.
So the breadcrumbs is really simple is that it's not like right what you know isn't necessarily what the author's journey is. It's right what you experience, and so you were getting being invited into certain new arenas. That was shaping your thinking and how you were feeling about it. And then, as you were working through your concepts and working through like the frustration or what have you like, then the new ideas seem to have emerged and then it just seems to your you went from organization and then, after organization, just got put into other locales, if you will, and it's still the theme, though it sounds like you're still saying the same theme is about empowerment, agency collaboration, partnership. It seems like that's the through line. No matter where the environment is, we partner together to create a citizen activist, to create the common good. We partner together with our clients to create the organizations that we want and, as leaders, we create collaborative environments where people can talk and work, you know, and solve problems together, and it seems like there's just this empowerment collaboration theme that cuts across all of it.
0:45:48 - Peter Block
Beautiful.
0:45:50 - Betsy Jordyn
Is that accurate? So that got it right, yay.
0:45:57 - Peter Block
That's beautiful, you know, and I, when I get invitations from unexpected places, I take it seriously.
0:46:05 - Betsy Jordyn
So when I get invited to you know parts of the government.
0:46:09 - Peter Block
I say, well, something's going on here.
City manager, something's going on here and I, I don't know. I'm, like all of us, waiting to change my mind. And so when I read a book about a tennis teacher who teaches tennis without giving instructions, I'm, like all of us, waiting to change my mind. And so when I read a book about a tennis teacher who teaches tennis without giving instructions, I said wow. And he called me. The high point of my career was when Tim Gawain called me on the phone. He says, peter, you wrote me a letter, can we talk? And I I I wasn't okay, and and so I I. My gift is I don't need much to see things happen many times to know that they're true. And so you see one thing happen in one place. I see Tim teaching without any instructions. I think wow, so maybe I'm in the business of learning and not teaching. So we called the business Designed Learning.
0:47:13 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh, oh, I have a question about that.
0:47:16 - Peter Block
I mean, yeah, and each of these people Warner, earhart, john McKnight brought me into into community and the gifts versus deficiency. Peter told me there's nothing wrong with me. All the things I thought were defects turns out to be that I'm a human being and I'm able I think one of my gifts just to see things that can matter and know there's something really important here. Let me spend five, six, seven years trying to figure out what that is.
0:47:53 - Betsy Jordyn
And it's like you're bringing forth, like unique perspectives, like I spent a lot of time like wrestling with, you know, activating the common good, because it's so different from a perspective.
You know in terms of like, even understanding the business perspective when I, when I read about the business. I would love for you to explain a little bit about the business perspective versus the common good perspective, because when you were bringing it up, it kind of made me feel like you know, like that parable, where they're, like the fish are in the water. You know, one fish says to the other like how's the water? And it's like, oh, I feel like you brought this awareness, like that there's a business perspective that permeates everything, even like when I pictured like I was doing consulting in my early years, when I first left Disney to start my own consulting business. I was doing work with churches that they wanted to bring in the business principles. And then I read through your book and I'm like, oh my God, that's why it didn't work Like this. There's something fundamentally off about this. Like, what is the business perspective? How is it different than the common good perspective?
0:48:52 - Peter Block
It's a distinction of where you put your attention, and I tried to write it in a neutral way and I feel that way about it. Okay, but if you see the world as, in a way, the value of speed and the value of scale, how fast can we take it to scale values, cost, how cheaply can we do it? How consistent can we be? How convenient can we be and how can we convince consumers that there's something wrong with them? Now, it's fine, run your business that way, but don't run your church that way, don't run your school that way, don't run my neighborhood that way, don't run city all that way. Right, and so that's what I try to say. The business perspective is not an argument against capitalism. Late stage, early stage saved me from that conversation. It's not about an ism. You want to be a socialist? None of them work except for commerce. But don't organize our lives around commerce. Organize our lives around compassion about connection and stop running our schools as if their main job is to produce good employees. That's what.
STEM does.
0:50:21 - Betsy Jordyn
I love that difference about the school output. You did say in the book about the output of a school, from that to like children knowing what am I good at? Like that, seems it seems so revolutionary, but so good.
0:50:34 - Peter Block
I know, I heard you know, Frances Strickland was the first lady of Ohio and I heard her give a talk. I was on a panel with her and she said I had one goal and that was to have every 18 year old know what they're good at in the state of. Ohio. I heard that sentence and, oh my god, everything changed and then you say, if I took that seriously, that's the struggle with the church.
it has, my God, everything changed. And then you say, if I took that seriously, that's the struggle with the church. It has the language, it has the beauty that all the churches do. It's using a business perspective to live it out.
You know, the local churches have huge endowments, okay, and the trustees figure, their job is to keep the endowments huge. And then you see one philanthropy group who said in five years we're out of business. Oh my God, there's an option, and so all of us are looking for those moments to believe in. That's why what you do, Betsy, is so important, because you have an enormous gift of capturing complicated things and making them accessible. And you give me a reason to write, because your understanding of my book teaches me something about it, and I'm grateful to you for that that means a lot.
0:52:12 - Betsy Jordyn
thank you for saying that that means a lot.
Um, I would be remiss if I didn't ask this question because I know this is on a lot of my clients' mind as it relates to like a lot of.
So if you're saying that common good perspective is not, you know like the business perspective can be in business and the common good perspective can be over here, but my clients' hearts beat for the common good perspective to be in business and they're up at night right now because they care deeply about people-centered organizations, work environments that welcome everybody.
They care deeply about respect for people and their mission is to create that in organizations. But right now they are in an environment that is becoming increasingly hostile to that philosophy or those values. Like they're struggling with leaders who are very short-term focused and don't want to go beyond that. They have very nervous leaders who are in the middle of an economic situation that's scaring them. But even worse is that their values around diversity, equity and inclusion are almost like considered illegal, like they're all on the topping block. And so could you speak to, you know really the heart of a purpose-centered, a purpose-driven consultant or coach who wants to have that collaborative relationship, who wants to actually the common good perspective within an organization in a business context. What do they do now? How can you speak to their concerns?
0:53:45 - Peter Block
Well, I get what you're saying, and it's never been more painful than it is now. It doesn't matter whether you're inside. My common good thing is absolutely about organizational life, Just because I took it somewhere else, well, you know. So what do we do in a movement? And we decide where to place our attention.
I can decide where my attention goes, and I have to do something with the pain of what I see. Ai. It's not that complicated, it's just a way of reducing labor costs. Okay, it's packaged as great science and it's going to take us to know. And so how can I treat that as interesting, but not the point. We together can decide where to pay our attention, and I'm looking for islands of possibility, islands of sanity, as makes sense.
Are there three people in your company who are line managers who feel the same tension you do? And can we sit and talk to each other and say what are the small places, you know, short moments where we can be together in a different way? Like, how about a staff meeting? How about if we stop using PowerPoint? Well, how about every time we hold a staff meeting, we break people into groups of three and say what's most on your mind for the next hour we're spending together? Okay, I can do that. Nobody's watching. So many of our protocols are so useless useless and they just reinforce us becoming instruments. The instrumentality Part of the business perspective is to try to reduce things to predictable, organized, instrumental units. That was Ford's genius. He said if I can break a car into 15,000 pieces and get people to do the same piece over and over again, I can produce a cheap car, and so look for those moments. It's small, it's slow.
0:56:12 - Betsy Jordyn
Stop caring about what top management thinks If I'm a consultant and I'm brought into the organization and you know like who brought you in let's role, play it right now. Okay, oh, this is good, I'll be the consultant you bring me in.
0:56:30 - Peter Block
Hi, Betsy, glad you called what's up.
0:56:33 - Betsy Jordyn
Okay. So wait, am I an organization that is resistant? Okay?
0:56:37 - Peter Block
Yeah, you're resistant.
0:56:40 - Betsy Jordyn
So, peter, I need your help because we are, we are, we're really worried about the recession. With the tariffs, we have to, you know, move things offline. We might have to just like lay off a whole bunch of people in our workforce and and I just need you to do this like tell me what do I need to do to get myself recession proof and deal with these tariffs so that if they, if they, no matter which way they go, we can, we can still be successful?
0:57:07 - Peter Block
Okay, so be clear about what you want from our working together. Say it again slowly, in a short time.
0:57:12 - Betsy Jordyn
Okay, so I'm the executive.
0:57:15 - Peter Block
I know, I know your situation oh okay.
0:57:18 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh, I need you to make clear recommendations on where I need to move my supply chain and how do I avoid any of the tariff ups and downs, and I need you to tell me how I need. I cannot promise you anything that says you're recession-proof.
0:57:46 - Peter Block
But let's talk about what matters to you and who are the people that we can work with together, that can answer that question together. That's what I can do with you. I can't study and give you an answer that will mean anything. I can work with you and I feel I can ask you later why these things matter to you. You care about the people. You don't know what to do with the supply chain, but let's talk about why it matters to you and what I can do is help bring people together to collectively find a way to endure these terrible times. Are you interested or not?
0:58:33 - Betsy Jordyn
So we're full circle. Basically, the solution to the problem that I posed at the end is really the question I asked you at the beginning, which is what the practices of flawless consulting is is still going in there as the partner and as the collaborator to create that conditions and then create high involvement solutions where people can be talking together. Right, that's that.
0:58:58 - Peter Block
So what I would have done in good times or bad times is the same and I also learned from my early days that what people present to use the problem is never it I know I say that all the time.
0:59:14 - Betsy Jordyn
I say the client's always wrong always wrong.
0:59:17 - Peter Block
It's called a presenting problem.
0:59:20 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah.
0:59:21 - Peter Block
And so I say to you hard-nosed client, recession-proof supplier change. Let's talk, because I know the way you presented the problem makes it insoluble, and so my gift to you is helping you reframe the problem To the statement in a more actionable way. And so let's engage some people and find out what's underlying your helplessness about supply chains and shrinking workforces.
0:59:59 - Betsy Jordyn
My gosh, my gosh you. I had no idea that you have your perspective. Flawless consulting has been the foundation of my work for 30 years and I didn't know. It's like another one of those moments about the fish in the water, you know, like saying how's the water? Like, where did you learn what you learned? I learned everything from you. Like this whole perspective is like. This is. This is so amazing. Like my one of my clients, her name Katie Anderson, and she always talks about the chain of learning, and like you're the source of the chain of learning that I bring out to other people. This is amazing. I don't even know what to say in terms of gratitude for you coming on my show.
1:00:38 - Peter Block
But gratitude, thank you I. But gratitude, thank you. I like hearing that, but you have a small version of what you're describing. The reader creates the book that you have found a way to customize the gift I gave you. Okay, and you can't fully attribute it to me as being Yankee in the chain of learning. That's what you're doing with your clients and with your life is to help people realize that, even though they're grateful to you, it doesn't explain anything. And even us, talking together I mean, it's beautiful for me to be so seen and understood, but you're taking it places nobody else would have imagined and your friend Katie is that her name.
1:01:33 - Betsy Jordyn
Uh-huh.
1:01:34 - Peter Block
She's taking you places that you wouldn't imagine, and she's your damn client. Who's paying who here? And that perspective takes us somewhere. That means something's going to happen because we spent this time together and even the hard-nosed executive.
I just don't want to be brought in by his helplessness and his complaints. And if you want to talk about the world that's a conversation of opinions We'll do that, but not during the day. I don't invite people to complain about anything, even though they're right, because it doesn't take us anywhere. That's what you get, Betsy. You internalize and deepen for 30 years a way of being in the world, and each of us gets credit for having you know. It's like impressionism. It used to be that the point was to make a painting as accurate as possible about what you were looking at. And then somebody started doing squares and scribbles and Jackson Powell dribbled the paint and he said I'm more interested in the experience of the viewer than I am in the skill of the artist.
1:02:54 - Betsy Jordyn
Wow.
1:02:57 - Peter Block
And I don't know. I just feel it takes us somewhere. With that perspective, we all do it our own way. You know, take what you put. Your commitment to bring that into the world tells people that it's possible and it's hard and it may not even work. Sometimes you do things and you have all the great theory and wrote the book and it's a disaster. I can tell you, every time I was in a room or something didn't work, and most of the time I shouldn't have been in the room. But I need the job. I need the work. I gave a talk once. They paid me a lot of money. I said I don't think I'm right for this talk. You have to come, peter. We already advertised you. I said okay, they sent a limo to pick me up to my talk and he leaves the hotel, makes a U-turn and the venue was right across the street from where I was staying and I thought here I am driving in a limousine across the street. Who have I become? And so that's why all these things matter.
1:04:34 - Betsy Jordyn
That's why we're doing it, thank you. We've taught so many rich things that we talked about. We talked a lot about you know flaws, consulting your journey, how you got to activating the common good. We didn't really touch that much on design, learning your for-profit, which I am very excited to have your managing partner, beverly, come on the show next. But is there anything else that you would want to tell me about you? Know you, your philosophy, what you want my audience to know? If you could speak to a whole bunch of purpose-driven consultants and coaches who are equal fan fanboys, girls and thems out there who are just like me, what would you say to us? Or is there or not? No, but they all are, because everybody's going to be like oh my God, she's fangirling out, she's just like me. Is there anything else that you want to share?
1:05:24 - Peter Block
with us. The challenge is to embody. It's one thing to have a point of view, have a set of ideas, and then the challenge is how do you embody it and can you learn how to create experiences that capture it? You can't make a difference in the world by explaining what you're up to or explaining why it's important. It's a mythology of research. I'm happy with research, but being right doesn't make a difference. It just feels good.
And so we started in the early days saying okay, we can't just talk about or write about, we have to design, in two or three days, experiences that allow people to quickly learn how simple this is If you just try it.
This is if you just try it. And so that's what we've done is with the six conversations you know leader is convener we're trying to say look, a leadership is not about role modeling, it's not about, it's about bringing people together, connecting them to decide what you want to do about the recession, what you want to do about this supply chain. Okay, and so that's what design learning was. That's why we called it designed learning. And slowly over the years, we just said look, we have the means, in a short period of time, to help you, not only shift your thinking, but also realize you have the skills and ability to connect with people as a leverage point, and so the whole time is designed in small groups mostly. Maria Montessori said the hardest thing is about Montessori is getting teachers to stop teaching, and so the hardest thing when we do workshops is to shut up Not one of my strengths.
Mine either I know, and so I just invite people to consider this as a short, efficient vehicle to let people experience another way of being together. And then they can repeat it forever and some places decide well, we're going to make this central to our way of being. They have internal people that run the workshops, but it's really about designed experiences that embody the stuff I write and talk about.
1:08:07 - Betsy Jordyn
And that's at designedlearningcom. Designed with E-D learningcom, correct.
1:08:12 - Peter Block
Yeah, that'll do it. You'll have Beverly who embodies all of that.
1:08:16 - Betsy Jordyn
And then, as it relates to your, you have your own website as well. It seems like you have multiple websites, I do, which is the best place for people to your. You have your own website as well, like it seems like you have multiple websites I do which is the best place for people to connect with you.
1:08:28 - Peter Block
Well, the ideas are on Restore Commons and there I just I needed a place where I heard somebody give a talk or a video or something, or me in a conversation like this. Okay, that changes everything. Okay, and all you long for with what you do is that what you're doing embodies what you're talking about. Pivot, and that's what being with you is like, and so I put those all on restorecommonssomethingcom. Restore Commons, but Dozian.
1:09:05 - Betsy Jordyn
Learns is all you need.
1:09:06 - Peter Block
They all take you wherever you want to go. It's just that I, when I work with different people, sometimes we plant things in different places. That makes sense, but the other thing I'm doing now is something called the Common Good Alliance, so we're trying to bring the ideas from Activate the Common Good into neighborhoods.
1:09:27 - Betsy Jordyn
So in businesses.
1:09:28 - Peter Block
We call them teams, divisions, departments In cities, neighborhood is as big as you want to get if you want to see a real change, but all that's next time. And all your books are on amazon, I would assume, and well they're on powell books, for sure.
1:09:47 - Betsy Jordyn
Everybody needs this book. Who is a consultant? And then all everybody who cares about the world? Um, you need this book. Wait, am I getting it in here? You need these books as well.
1:09:58 - Peter Block
Buy it from your local bookstore oh yeah, that's true.
1:10:01 - Betsy Jordyn
yes, buy it from your local bookstore. Oh yeah, that's true. Yes, buy it from your local bookstore.
1:10:04 - Peter Block
That is so accurate, you're right, it's more expensive, it's slow, and that's the point. Transformation is my willingness to be inconvenienced, small and slow.
1:10:19 - Betsy Jordyn
I'm sorry. I bought the Activating Common Good on Amazon.
1:10:21 - Peter Block
I don't about the activating common good on Amazon, I don't care.
1:10:24 - Betsy Jordyn
But you're right. You're right Because that is one of the things that you had mentioned in activating the common good. It was like staying local and locally sourced and urban farming. So you're right, I was doing the opposite of what I was supposed to be doing, but I didn't read the book yet, so I didn't know. So now I do. This has been an amazing conversation. I cannot thank you enough. I am beyond grateful. I definitely would love for to stay in touch and be connected.
1:10:54 - Peter Block
We are in touch. Nothing changes that. And connected.
1:10:57 - Betsy Jordyn
And connected. Stay connected, we are connected.
1:11:01 - Peter Block
You know me too. That's a year, your commitment and the blessing of your own language and speaking is beautiful. So you know I really appreciate it. We'll do stuff together, but we don't need a plan to be connected. Thank you and you can help me think about what I'm thinking about. That's what.
1:11:20 - Betsy Jordyn
I need. I'm good at that. I would love to do that. I know you're good at that. How much data do I need? That would be amazing. I would love that. Uh well, thank you so much for being on the show. I cannot wait to talk to your managing director, Beverly Crowell is that how I pronounce her last name?
close enough she will be on the show next and thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and for following what the person said all those years ago who was begging you to write a book, and that you actually followed through and you continue to write books because you make a difference every day.
1:11:52 - Peter Block
Thanks, Betsy.
1:11:53 - Betsy Jordyn
Thank you. As we end this episode, I invite you to reflect on Peter's deep wisdom, especially around how our relationship skills really are, the delivery mechanism of our expertise, what he talked about as it relates to the illusion of control and how nobody, even the top executives, have control. I loved what we got into about the differences between control and power, the prevailing myths that are out there that affect our own thinking and how we show up in the world around scarcity and division, and how a flawless consulting approach, this relationship and collaborative approach, is what's needed in any economy and, as a branding person, I'd be remiss if I did not draw out what I love what Peter said about looking for clients who are looking for us. So the question I invite you to consider is how easy or hard are you making it for the people who are looking for you to get what you do? So in our next episode, I'm beyond excited to continue this dialogue with Beverly Crowell, who's Peter's managing director for his for-profit arm, design Learning. So be sure to subscribe or follow Consulting Matters on your podcast player or on YouTube so you don't miss it.
Thank you so much for being a part of my inner circle of purpose-driven consultants and coaches, where we change the world together, one client or conversation at a time. So I'll see you next time. Thank you so much for listening and have a great day. And a quick reminder if you want to level up your own consulting or coaching business, now is the time, because I'm offering specials for my. I'm just getting out of sabbatical and I'm providing some discounts for people who are signing up now. So be sure to check out my website and my programs, and if you have been on the fence about wanting to work with me, now is your time to act. So, again, thanks for listening. And if you have been on the fence about wanting to work with me, now is your time to act. So again, thanks for listening, and I'm so glad you're part of my community.
