0:00:00 - Betsy Jordyn
For years I got lean all wrong. I thought it was all about processes when in reality it was about people, and because of that, I almost missed out on the most powerful approach to employee engagement I have ever seen. And welcome to the Consulting Matters podcast. This is the show for purpose-driven consultants and coaches who are ready to own the power of what they do and position themselves for greater impact and income. I'm your host, betsy Jordyn, and I am a business mentor and a brand messaging and positioning strategist. You can find out all about my brand building, business building programs on my website at BetsyJordyn.com. And don't forget, Jordyn is with a Y, not an A. So what we're doing today, what I'm going to be talking about, is continue a conversation.
I started last episode on employee engagement and you might be wondering like hey, betsy, aren't you kind of like retired from consulting? Like why do you continue to talk about employee engagement? And it's really simple. It's because my clients are still trying to work with organizations and help them create employee workplaces that are welcoming, where people feel respected and valued, at a time where it's really difficult to do that, and so we need more practical, proven solutions than what we have, and one of the best ways that I've found doesn't come from HR, it comes from lean, and so it wasn't until I started working with Katie Anderson a couple of years ago on her brand messaging and positioning, which you're gonna hear all about in my next episode of the podcast where she goes into her whole journey.
I really did think lean was just process improvement, efficiency. I had no idea about the deeper values, about respect for people and empowering problem solving at all levels and looking at waste, that are eliminating waste not just as this cost-cutting exercise, but more of a stewardship type of experience where you're trying to steward the organization's most precious resources. It's people, it's talent, it's time. Maybe it's because of the name or where it sits on the org chart, the jargon that people use to describe it. You know Lean's potential for driving this type of engagement maybe gets overlooked, or maybe I overlooked it, and the fact that it took me, with my background in this long to get it drives me nuts, and that's why I'm so excited to bring Thomas West and Mark Ryan of Green Dot Consulting. These guys are a lot of fun, very passionate and self-proclaimed improvement nerds who help organizations not just eliminate bad processes but escape the frustration of bad processes and wasted potential. So in our very lively conversation, you're going to hear why lean and process improvement is the most overlooked secret to increasing employee engagement, what leaders of highly engaged workforces never, never do when faced with lots of employee complaints, and why fixing broken processes, more than recognition or bumps in pay, makes employees feel respected, appreciated, valued and heard.
So I am super excited to have on the show Tom West and Mark Ryan of Green Dot Consulting. So we met what like six months ago, maybe longer, maybe a year ago, and I've been meaning to have you on the show long before. I went into my podcast and I was on your show and I became an improvement nerd after talking to you. So we're all wearing our shirts today, but I really wanted to have you guys on the show to talk about a couple different things. You know I really want to talk about you know just our shared values around people-centered leadership and why it's more important now more than ever. But I also want to get into the improvement nerdy kind of work and why it's so important, because it plays such a critical role not just in organizational effectiveness but also employee engagement. So I can't wait to get into the conversation with you. So, without further ado, welcome to the show, tom and Mark.
0:04:02 - Tom West
Thanks for having us, Vincent.
0:04:04 - Mark Ryan
Yeah, we're very excited to be here. Also, thanks for being a guest on our episode and although it was a year ago, it seems like it's really flown by, so can't wait to dive into this with you.
0:04:15 - Betsy Jordyn
And I love like all of this shared stuff we have in common. So you see, all the Star Wars stuff. When I'm a Star Wars nerd I wish I had like more of my Star Wars stuff. We're all Disney nerds and we're improvement nerds and I think it's more like than just like loving improvement. It's about so much more. So I love, before we get into the conversation, if we could take a step back and if you could share a little bit more. Just like, in a nutshell, what Green Dot Consulting does who do you help and for whom and why?
0:04:44 - Mark Ryan
Mark, do you want to get us kicked off and talk a little bit about our organization, our journey and what we've been up to?
0:04:53 - Tom West
I can, and then you can fill in the blanks for everything I missed.
But yeah, the Green Dot Consulting Group was started by Tom and we are in the improvement science space.
So we do Lean Six Sigma training, we do design thinking, sprints, workshops and we also consult and partner up with organizations that will allow us to come in and be ourselves, be nerds and work alongside of the frontline staff or leaders and to help them, show them a better way or a different way to think or approach their work and processes and have fun doing it all.
So I think that's a big thing for us is we offer similar services to others, but we want to have fun and we want to engage the front lines, we want to engage the leadership, and I don't think there's anything magical about us, but the types of processes or the types of methods that are used Lean methodology specifically engages people, engages people. So hopefully, the people we work with get energized by being introduced to lean and we get energized by seeing them become energized. So it's kind of the symbiotic thing that just happens back and forth of developing great relationships with people and that's really beyond the services that we offer as a consulting group is developing the relationships being there and partnering with others.
0:06:32 - Betsy Jordyn
Awesome, Tom. What would you add?
0:06:34 - Mark Ryan
Just a little bit to add, thinking back to my own career. I do have a big background in analytics, I have a degree in finance, so numbers have kind of always been my comfort zone. But somewhere along the way I got the sensation that you're going to feel the change before you see the change, meaning the attitudes and the energy of those people who are participating in it pivot and there's just a vibe that starts to manifest in the group's work and it's so addicting to be a part of. And for us that's only possible through doing what they do and walk in their shoes and really work hand in hand with them and the processes that they're currently trying to improve, and try to impart on them a little bit of what you know about problem solving and let them apart on you a little bit. They know about their work, their customer and some of the goals they have for themselves personally and professionally, and just really be present in there and try to find that flow where everything's starting to come together. And that sensation of feeling the change before you see it is for us the what we always try to orchestrate, um, and we're we're thankful for the partnerships we've had, um, that sensation of being in the flow of feeling the change before you see, the change doesn't always happen.
You know, there, I think there's a little bit of a recipe that has to be followed in order to get that sensation or that grassroots momentum built up. And not not every organization can can be patient in that regards, and I think, for us, we really want to be cautious of going slow to go fast, right, if you don't take, take the people along and you don't get that flow and that vibe, um, you're kind of just going around telling people what to do, and that's not the business we want to be. We really want to harvest their ideas and bring them to light, give them the uh, encouragement and the confidence they need to trust their own ideas and to try them. Uh, encouragement and the confidence they need to trust their own ideas and to try them. And in the end, if, as they try it, uh, our goal is to be their cheerleaders and champions when it succeeds. But in the event that doesn't go the way they expected, we take more than our fair share of the blame.
0:08:58 - Betsy Jordyn
We're kind of like a safety net for them you know there's so much that you said in here. That's really fun, but what's really coming across to me is like passion, you know, and I think, like back in the day, you know, as an OD consultant, it's like, oh, there's the Lean Six Sigma people. You know, I don't think I would have put them as like the passionate group about like helping employees and seeing the change, strategic positioning and making sure that everybody's clear about what is the value of. You know what these different, different types of consulting disciplines that we have and what we bring to the table, because there's a lot of misunderstandings about it. But just like if you were going to just say in a word you know about process improvement. You know that makes you so passionate.
I know on your website you say something like you know we're on a mission to like rescue the world from bad processes. You know what is it about process improvement that brought you to it? Like, see, so, tom, you said you came from a finance background. You know, like, so you fell into this space. I don't know, mark, what your background is, but how did you come to this space? That? And if you were just going to say in a nutshell like, what makes like bad processes, like the enemy. Like you know, if we use our our star wars analogy, it's the dark side of the organization.
0:10:09 - Mark Ryan
I believe the sith for sure yeah the bad process is the sith.
Uh I, I did talk a little bit about my background being in finance. I was exposed to this body and knowledge while I was studying to get my master's degree and, to be honest, I don't know if it was the curriculum, the instructor, but the way it was taught to me was very engineering in nature and I didn't initially love it. I excelled at it because of the statistics and you know my background with numbers and felt very confident that I can make sense of information included in these projects. But it wasn't until I got on a project and actually worked hand in hand with people and was able to see initially the impact on them and their attitudes and their enjoy that started to rise to the top in their work, but then also the impact at the end of of, you know, making that change and giving better service to those customers. At that point that's when I became addicted.
But, um, you know, I think some people they surface level, they love it immediately, but other people want to see the evidence and for me, and just initially in my studies, I'm like I don't, I don't get this, and I think a lot of people read about improvement sciences and think they underestimate how challenging and exciting it can actually be. Like oh yeah, we're already doing that. Or oh yeah, um, that sounds easy, but really, until you're in the thick of it you don't. You can't appreciate how complex it is to navigate change and how present you have to be to do that successfully. So, mark, I'll let you talk a little bit about how you came to this. To me, like my falling in love with it, came with being ever present in the work and committed to figuring something out to serve other people. The worker can leave them with a better process and the customer serve them and leave them with a better result.
0:12:24 - Betsy Jordyn
So it's almost like your finance mind really saw like this is the way to get those business results. Like, if we're really trying to get you know as a finance person, you're looking at like, okay, what's the customer behavior, what's the sales look like, what's the revenue cost? You know saving costs and all of that.
0:12:38 - Mark Ryan
It just seems like the linkage became clear Like, oh, this is how we make that happen in a very quick, tangible way it became yes, I think you're exactly right, that's when I fell in love with it is like it became the input to the output of the financial result that you know. I knew organizations needed to to succeed and thrive, right realizing uh, as they make those margins, ideally those organizations reinvest those earnings back into their business model to innovate and expand their services and better care for their workforce. So to me, that's when I was like this is it, this is this, is the ingredient, this input is really important to getting that desirable outcome.
0:13:26 - Betsy Jordyn
It's like when I've been working with Katie Anderson for the last few years and she's the one who really just opened my eyes, especially spending time in her testimonials and seeing the transformation of people going on the Japan trips and what have you but I feel like what I really got down to is like what Lean is all about, is like this is where the rubber of the organization hits the road. Like this is that moment of truth and it's like and if it doesn't, you can't get it right at the process level of like exactly what the employees are doing to create either the product and or the service experience. It all falls apart and it's just like wow, this is like, this is the linchpin. We could talk in an OD standpoint like, oh, here's what our culture is supposed to be, but nothing's going to happen until it gets embedded down here.
0:14:09 - Mark Ryan
I don't know if I got that right, but that's the way I started to see it. Absolutely, Mark. Do you want to talk a little bit about your journey into this world?
0:14:20 - Tom West
Sure, yeah, I started out in automotive not automotive manufacturing, where lean is firmly planted, but reconditioning. So the organization I was with hired Instant Senseis to come in and teach and I had the opportunity to learn. Tom mentioned being in the thick of it. So there is a way that technicians go about repairing vehicles, reconditioning vehicles and it's the way that things have always been done and so to install a new model. On that I came in heavily skeptical about it. The team that sent me off was heavily skeptical about it as well.
But when you get in it and you see it, I knew day one there was something different. I did have some frustration while I was learning it, but you see the processes smooth out, become much easier. You see teams working in ways that you never even thought were possible and a switch gets flipped for you and sometimes I think you have to be in there to. We can conceptualize what Lean Six Sigma is or process improvement is, but I think sometimes you have to be in it. You have to be in the thick of it. You have to see the environment to really understand.
And I appreciate what Katie does and brings people to Japan so they can feel and experience this. But that's how the switch was flipped for me is. I saw that and I was like this is amazing. This is what I want to be a part of and in my background in schooling I went for philosophy and religious studies and so I always wanted to have.
I always like debating and thinking through and understanding why people think a certain way and understanding the thought process. And Lean helps me to still engage people in the way they think and approach their work, so I'm able to bring that with me and to the space, which I think is super energizing. So that's how I got into it and I don't know if I'd want to go back to anything else. And an interesting note you know we're going to be talking a lot about engagement. That organization had a hundred locations and 50 of those locations were operating lean and 50 were just operating in a traditional sense. But they had one engagement survey for the whole organization and the lean stores way outpaced the traditional store. So if we're measuring objectively, you'd say there is higher engagement in these stores and when I was there I just didn't want to go back. I'm like, don't send me back to a traditional store, I want to go to openings of new stores that are doing it this way, so that was my start.
0:16:56 - Betsy Jordyn
Okay, fascinating, fascinating. So you came from a religious philosophy study background, but it sounds like you went from there to ops so you were more on the operational side. Is that accurate? So, as a consulting firm, that's powerful because you are coming at lean from a very different perspective is that you have the finance and operations side, but it's kind of grounding, I think what I hear is, thematically, is it's really just a more logical problem solving that you both have together is like okay, why is this the way it is? And really this logic and consistency that you're looking for that brings it together. But as a consulting firm, that's amazing to have both the finance and the operations standpoint together under one house, to be able to see it from both perspectives, because I find it fascinating. Also, I'm working with Katie it is just some of the clients that she's working with trying to quantify the value of lean and I'm like, oh my God, why can't you quantify it? Like OD consultants, we had to quantify our value. We're like way, like, way, much more in the theoretical, like you guys are so much closer to the business and I love the fact that you can bring both them both together to say you know, there's a quantifiable impact, both together to say no, there's a quantifiable impact, okay.
So, as you mentioned, we're going to be talking about employee engagement and I'd love to talk in general about lean, but I want to talk about employee engagement because that's a big issue that's going on right now. You know we're in a work world where, you know, recession looks like it's like might be around the corner. You know there's a lot of companies slashing budgets. Anything people first is like okay, that's out there.
And people might be wondering why in the world am I bringing a couple of lean guys onto the show to talk about employee engagement? Why am I not bringing HR onto the show? And so I want to ground us into you know, not to say that what HR is doing isn't wrong. You know, like I mean isn't correct or isn't good. But what is it about? Like engagement, how leaders are thinking about it, or what HR is saying when they say we have an engagement problem. Like what? What is it? That's, what are they thinking when they think they have an engagement problem and what are some of the mistakes they're making because of how they're perceiving what the engagement problem actually is?
0:19:02 - Mark Ryan
Thanks for sending us these show notes ahead of time. I read these questions and before we even started recording. But, see, I said I love all these questions, they're hard to answer, and I said you can use them in almost every interview and you're going to get a lot of different responses. So, um, I'm going to air what I think is the gap that exists when an organization detects that they have an engagement problem, and then we'll invite Mark, but we also want to hear from you, so we're going to put our two cents into this and we want to hear your third sentence. Okay. So for me, I think, when they detect there's a gap in employee engagement, I automatically perceive there is human potential left on the table. There's passion, skills, innovation, ideas that exist in these people's heads that don't have an avenue to be heard, to be tried and tested and carried out, to start that flywheel of momentum that's necessary to get the momentum going towards a different place.
0:20:19 - Betsy Jordyn
You're saying that the leaders are seeing that. Or you're saying that that's what you think, like the leaders are saying, oh my gosh, I see all these on top potential in my employees. No, I don't think leaders see seeing that. Or you're saying that that's what you think, like the leaders are saying, oh my gosh, I see all these on top potential in my employees.
0:20:28 - Mark Ryan
No, I don't think leaders see it that way. I see it. What do I think?
0:20:33 - Betsy Jordyn
What do you think the leaders are saying Like? What is it that you think the leaders are saying Like? What are they observing that they're saying oh my gosh, we have an employee engagement problem, we need to do something about it. What are they observing Outside of? Maybe they got a crappy employee engagement score if they had an employee engagement survey, but what are they?
0:20:51 - Mark Ryan
observing. They're probably experiencing the phenomenon of working excessively and harder when it should be simpler. And it's because of people's I wouldn't say complaining, but it is their bad attitudes cause them to maybe have absenteeism or interpersonal conflict with their peers or with even the leader. And managing that turmoil they start to realize more and more and more of their day as a leader is being spent not managing the work and you know the standard and the achievement of the goal. They more manage the workers and the conflict that's occurring there, and I think so for the leader. I believe that's what they start to sense.
0:21:49 - Betsy Jordyn
when employee engagement starts to trend unfavorably, that's what they start to sense when employee engagement starts to trend unfavorably and so when they think of it in terms of, like I'm hearing a lot of complaints, you know, then it seems like the fix is, well, how do I get the complaints to go away? That basically what they're trying to fix is employee engagement will be better, as if I spend less of my time dealing with these complaints in employees who are not showing up and all of this extra frustrating stuff, and I can get back to the work.
0:22:18 - Mark Ryan
That's my perception.
0:22:19 - Betsy Jordyn
How about you, Mark? Do you see it the same way?
0:22:21 - Tom West
Yeah, I see it the same way. I think the less engaged the workforce is, the less productive they'll be. So you'll see a diminishing in productivity with staff. So you'll see a diminishing in productivity with staff. And, by the way, before an organization decides to riff to save money or tries some kind of engagement, bring us in, because what I've seen with Lean and when it's successfully applied, is that you're really going to get engagement from everyone within the organization or everyone within the location, and there's a byproduct to it is that you will have some cost savings because you're getting people involved.
I don't know that. I've seen too many programs out there. Generally, when leaders see hey, it seems like people are less productive. Out there, generally, when leaders see hey, it seems like people are less productive, there's interpersonal conflict. They may think to bring in more training. So you have people come in and they'll just do a spot training on something and we've done the training, but we don't understand why the behavior is not shifting.
So I think, know, I think, tom, and I think there's a little bit more to it, and rolling up our sleeves and getting with the folks on the front line and bringing out the employee creativity, which is one of the eight wastes within Lean is unused employee creativity. So we're constantly looking for that. Who has ideas that aren't being used and how can we start to test those ideas in a way that's controlled? So, yeah, I think it's less productivity. You'll see that morale dip and you know, I think the answer and I might have jumped ahead too quickly is I think lean is one of the best, or getting people involved in process improvement is one of the best employee engagement efforts that is out there.
0:24:17 - Betsy Jordyn
That is so interesting. So it sounds like then the issue that gets sourced is like oh, we have complaints, like people are complaining a lot. It's taking me away from the work. And then from what you're saying, mark, it's also like we're going to try these superficial like band-aids thing, like we're going to throw a program at it here, a training, and maybe we'll do a bump in in pay, we'll do a recognition program. You know we'll do all these different things, but it doesn't really do anything to it on. Is that what you're? So that's kind of like the current state of how we think about engagement but yeah and, and some of those interventions can actually cost more yeah, and they're not solving the problems, because they're almost like they're throwing the Band-Aid without even figuring out what's really going on.
0:24:55 - Mark Ryan
Yeah, yeah, I believe it is a vicious cycle. I can tell we're on to something we're all very excited about here, because the risk now of having many of us on together is we might talk over each other. But I do think there is this. There's a book it's called no ego and I forget the author's name, but in it they quantify the amount of organizational bandwidth that's consumed by poor morale.
And just think of a scenario in which something's happened in your life that, whether it was a hailstorm, came suddenly and you didn't get your car in the garage in time and it dinged up your hood and you spent all that time and energy complaining about the consequence instead of proactively seeking the right path to solve it right. You, you text your friends and you spend all this energy consuming your time and their time talking about the hailstorm and that's postponing the resolution of what the hailstorm did to your car, which is, give it estimated, reported to your insurance company, and then a body shop to be repaired. And you compare those two to the time you spend as the owner of the car doing those two things, complaining about the hailstorm versus resolving the issue the hailstorm caused. Most times, depending on your personality you could find yourself in a black hole. I want to say the B word in complaining about the hailstorm. It happened.
0:26:42 - Betsy Jordyn
All right.
So I'm going to flip you on this one. I'm going to give you some data that I think you guys are going to really like. So I think the number one mistake that people make is misunderstanding complainers and complaints. Like you don't want the complaints to go away, you want them to source them up. So I did an employee engagement project with AAA, so it was really fascinating.
So engagement is different than satisfaction. You know satisfaction is related to like how attached am I to my manager? Or how attached to my team, how satisfied am I? Engagement relates to performance and like engage like I care, I'll use my discretionary effort or what have you. So you guys are going to love this. You know your analytical minds are going to love what we did.
So I had a quantitative person helping me and we decided to put in the employee engagement survey sort of like a net promoter score Like it's somewhere in there around. You know to what degree would you recommend this? And we tried to track engagement relative to performance and we found out the ones that scored the highest on satisfaction were the lowest performers on the organization. The ones who scored the highest on their performance were the lowest in terms of that satisfaction. They were more attached to their role in the organization, less attached to their leader and their team, and they were the complainers. They were the ones who, like the complainers, are actually engaged because they actually care.
And so, using your Hillstone analogy, it's like, yeah, be about, you know, complain all you want, because in the complaint is the solution to like, oh well, maybe we should do something for the car to keep it from getting affected by the hailstorm in the first place. And so to me, like the whole thing about engagement is, it's not to make the complaints go away, it's about to create a better container for the complaints to be sourced and resolved. For the complaints to be sourced and resolved and I think that's where you all come in in the work that you do is creating that container for the correct complaints to be sourced and solved. Am I correct in that?
0:28:44 - Tom West
Yes, I think so. We like to come in and place containers, but we try to stay away from black box container. Right, just the suggestion box or complaint box, if you will. We come in with a system to have those who are frustrated with processes, who may be complaining, to elevate their problem in a way. We help them articulate it in a way. We help them articulate it in a way and then we help them to go about working through that problem and solving that issue.
And you're right, there's a lot of energy. The complainers have a lot of energy, but when they get through to the other side and they break through to solutioning and they see that impacting their work, that energy is then, uh, back to the star Wars reference, used for good, uh, and what you'll see is sometimes the, in some cases the, the trackers are your, your biggest cheerleaders. Um, after they go through this process and again, that's super energizing for us to see and keeps us going, because when we say, hey, this, this person might be a tough nut to crack, and then we take them through a process and the switch is flipped for them and they're the cheerleaders and we're stepping back there. I think there's nothing more rewarding.
0:30:09 - Mark Ryan
Tom. Yeah, I really appreciate that you took us down this road. Betsy, I believe you are correct that those and I don't like calling it complaints uh, it is a cry for help. It is likely an individual who sees the light at the end of the tunnel and doesn't know how to get there, or uh, has witnessed a change in the wrong direction and they're trying to send up signals. So, though that's to an organization, they're seeing that the organizational dialogue change and if they're attuned to it, they are realizing it is spending energy and they could choose to listen to it or mask it. And if they choose to mask it, that is just going to perpetuate and eventually, if not acted on, and it could result in you losing some of your potentially best performers because you perceive they were complaining, but reality was they were trying to raise the flag and escalate an issue to you and you did not develop a mechanism to hear it, understand it and act on it.
0:31:23 - Betsy Jordyn
It's almost like leaders have to sort out what kind of complaints that they're getting. You know, if it's like, oh, I'm just not getting enough pay and they aren't really doing anything, it's like, okay, I put that in that one. But if it's like I'm complaining like this, you know, like this process, like, are you all a fan of the pit? I just got obsessed with the pit. It's a story. It takes place in an ER and the ER the head of the ER constantly is complaining to the administration because there's all these wait times and you know, and there's all these complaints. So he's getting held accountable for patient satisfaction and this flow through the ER. But the problem is is that there's not enough nurses and people staffing in the hospital, and that's where the whole thing is, and he's like beside himself, you know. So he's constantly complaining about it, and I think that that's where that's a good complaint. You know they're pointing out this, they're on the front lines, this is where the broken system is, and it's almost like this is a feedback, that's a gift, and and then the feedback that's acted on like.
So to me, the connection with employee engagement is I think people just want to know I have a voice. That's heard. You know like I'm heard. I have an expertise that's heard. You know that it's like. Don't ask me for my feedback, you know. Don't give me the stupid survey that you're just going to post and then not do any action planning on it. And if I'm bringing up something that will definitely benefit the organization, don't shut me down, because if you shut me down, I'm going to stop giving you my ideas and I'm going to start making my exit strategy where I actually can make a difference, because I think people fundamentally want to make a difference in their work. Comments, thoughts, feedback.
0:32:53 - Tom West
Yeah, I agree with that and we want those suggestions and being heard and listened to is energizing. But beyond that even is celebrating their contributions and keeping that going. So keeping the energy alive and celebrating and even if the suggestion doesn't work out, you know, like what can we do? What is the what is the issue? That is is bugging us here and what can we do. And we may make several attempts, and even if we attempt and fail, we still celebrate that to keep that energy going and the ideas flowing so that that pipeline is always there. They know if they have an issue, there is an infrastructure to escalate that and I think providing that infrastructure is super important so that they know that they have that as an outlet. I think in some organizations they don't have that infrastructure. They don't have that outlet, they don't know where to go, so they're just going to their peers and they're going to other, different channels of communication that aren't necessarily healthy or helpful.
0:34:04 - Mark Ryan
I want to add on to that. This is like a conversation of yes and I don't think anything we're saying among this group, we're like no, that's totally. I feel like every time someone offers something, we're like yes and this. So, um, I think the language they person uses when they talk about the opportunity they're seeing, so when they detect a gap exists, they don't always have the words to describe the opportunity and because of that it comes across as a complaint. So I think one of the very first steps necessary, uh, in deploying lean is for us. We kind of think of them in like three maturity models and we've been talking about systems and structures and, yes, you absolutely have to install those too. But I think that's the second play.
Your first play is creating an improvement know-how in a language, because they sense something's wrong but they can't articulate it most times.
Sometimes people don't even sense something's wrong, like the issue is wallpaper to them and they are none the wiser, that they're working harder and not smarter and that they are, you know, at the cusp of a breakthrough.
So I think you have to instill a new way of thinking, a different way of seeing your world as the worker, and be able to talk differently about the challenges you're facing, then that kind of allows the organization to sort through and make decisions about where improvements are needed.
So once they develop that language, organizations go from like a shortage of ideas to a surplus, and the next challenge is well, what do we do with all these ideas? And we can't act on all of them. We don't have enough resources, and if we did, we would probably have a lot of diminishing returns. We would try to do too many changes at once and none of them would be seen all the way through. So that's where they then need the systems and structures to organize improvement initiatives around the opportunities that have come from the front line and then, over time, those mechanisms will allow them to start to quantify the impact they're making and they're going to start to realize the strategic opportunity that exists through the improvement know-how and the improvement systems. And now they can move to innovation and strategic improvement.
0:36:31 - Betsy Jordyn
So it's like air traffic control is needed, you know, somehow to have like purview over all of these different things, which kind of goes to what I have been wondering about ever since I've become obsessed and become an improvement nerd and obsessed with lean and continuous improvement because of my lack of understanding, you know is that I have a vision now, like HR, od, l&d and lean need to be like a team, like an internal team of you know organizational improvement of some kind, you know, and work together on this, like where HR shouldn't be doing engagement separate. Like we have to work together. Like. So if we were going to do like, walk me through my magical ideal world around what a true employee engagement initiative should look like. If this partnership was actually working, where you took the best of what HR did, od, l&d and Lean, and if they were working together as a cohesive team, what would this look like?
0:37:31 - Tom West
It would look like operational excellence to me. Um, you know, I I agree, I think that sometimes, you know, we have all these business units and there's parallel initiatives going on and we're not getting lift because everybody's working towards the same goal but through different avenues. What it would look like and I'm you know, I'm biased is implementing lean, and a lean system will solve a lot of your HR issues that aren't just interpersonal things. So it will help with engagement. It will help you connect your tactics to strategy, so it will help push forward initiatives, um, so, even even beyond hr, into operations like it.
It is the, for me, I think it's the one pill that kind of solves all those issues. Um, and I would umbrella that in operational excellence and, and I've tried in previous organizations to bridge the gap between the functional areas and reach out and work and be the best partner that I can be with the other business units, and I think the more that they see what it is that we're trying to do, betsy, like you said, the more you learned about it, the more you realize we're all on the same page. So I think giving exposure to those other areas and other leaders can help an organization go further, faster and all row in the same direction if they really commit. It's a big commitment to do, but if you do that, I think you will operate excellently.
0:39:16 - Betsy Jordyn
It's almost like everybody needs to be like a little mini sub team within the organization. At least we're on the same page. And let's say, hr took the lead in getting the survey out and getting the big picture. You know, it seems like right as soon as there's the feedback and action planning, because there's like once you have like okay, here's what the data says, but you really need to go the data beneath the data. Then you bring in all of your lean, continuous improvement teams to source all of that and then when there is a learning opportunity, you know, then you bring in L&D to take the lead on. You know what that looks like. And then you bring in OD at that particular point in time, but really bringing in the group to say we together are all interested in the same thing, you know, like that I found it fascinating and just getting to know your field like people-centered leadership is a mantra as a big part of what you all do. People-centered learning cultures, you know. But you know L&D would talk about human-centric learning. You know human-centric learning and HR is talking about people-centered organizations. Like we're all saying the same thing.
We all just need to get out of our silos and work together and I think that that's where we need to talk a little bit more about, you know, for the internal. Let's talk first for the internal consultants, then we can talk about the external. You know, for the internal consultants. I think that there has to be a stop for the fight on who's the you know strategic partner to the business. Like you're all strategic partners to the business. You know like like let's not compete. You know let's collaborate too, because not not one of these disciplines need to be elevated. We just need to partner.
0:40:55 - Mark Ryan
Disciplines need to be elevated. We just need to partner. You know like to me that's the rallying cry from an internal consultant standpoint. But then we need to talk about the external consultants and like what that they have not historically worked very well together and I think what you're proposing is a center of excellence of the problem solvers from different aspects of the organization, whether it's people, process or technology technology. Those systems tend to be the root cause of why someone who wants to be engaged in the work is needed.
An obstacle. Right, it's either they people, they don't have the right leadership or they don't have the right skills themselves. So there's a gap there. It's. The process is maybe not effectively designed with lean in mind or the customer's expectations, and the process does not allow them to deliver the result that they want to be giving to their customer or its technology. That is absence in it. So you know, you have the PMO IT teams, you have L&D, od working on the people process and then you have the PI team working on the process issues. So they're splintered and I think what you're proposing is if they could work as a cohesive unit to collaborate and optimize those three things for the people who are doing the work, they're more likely to experience higher levels of success.
So internally, what I'm what I would call it I think Mark said it's OpEx yeah, that's in the end your organization is having more good days than they are bad days. We're not going to say like perfection exists, but right now, in the environment where people are not engaged, that equation, so put in the um up in the top of your fraction here in the numerator um bad days and in the denominator good, good days, right. So if that's over one, right now there's a lot more bad days happening in the person's work life than there ought to be and you want to see that equation flip over time and then feel different about their work, more confident that things are changing in a favorable way and I think that, as that happens, you're going to have more good days and that's going to translate into that vision of achieving OpEx.
0:43:37 - Betsy Jordyn
But it's almost like you have to decide, like we, that is our goal. Like we want to create the best possible experience for our employees and our customers. That's our goal. And but a lot of people might be thinking it's like, oh God, you know, like you know, I have to wait for the organizational structure to kind of look that way. Or, if we choose to be the center of excellence or choose to partner, then am I going to diminish my own role.
And now we're in this crazy environment. You know where a recession is coming. Is that going to make me more vulnerable to getting laid off? Or is it establishing our collective value that you're less likely? Because I would make the case that right now is the last people you want to get rid of are the people who are helping maintain this people. First, organization, you know, if layoffs are coming like this is what makes me crazy is you know this right now, it seems like it's popular to do like, oh, we're going to do efficiency by just cutting departments. Like, okay, we, we know, we all know, from an OD standpoint or design, we know that that's a really bad idea. You guys know that's a really bad idea. So how do you manage that anxiety that people might have. It's like I got to be protective of my space because I might get laid off people might have.
0:44:51 - Mark Ryan
It's like I gotta be protective of my space because I might get laid off. You might, and that I I I would say that those things are out of your control. What you can control is your attitude and the mindset that you bring to any situation. So that protect and defend is a scarcity mindset of what I have I need to keep for myself, because without it I'm not valuable or important. That's a bad spot to be in because in the end, if you kept that mindset of scarcity and organizations faced a challenge to which they had to reduce their workforce and you were removed from the workplace, now you are out looking for a job with a scarcity mindset.
Right Because if you had an abundant mindset of. I believe what I have is a gift and the best I can do with it is to pour it into something meaningful. If you do that and you are removed from your organization, you should hold your head extremely high. That, in a sense, you gave of yourself and worked yourself out of a job, but you leave that job with a different mindset that is going to position you to be successful in your next endeavor.
0:46:11 - Betsy Jordyn
Snaps to you. That was so good yeah.
0:46:15 - Mark Ryan
I just want a clip just of that.
0:46:16 - Betsy Jordyn
That was so good, Mark. I dare you to go after that one. That was brilliant.
0:46:22 - Tom West
No, I don't know. I think that's like a teaser clip. That's so good yeah.
0:46:29 - Betsy Jordyn
I love that and I love that. That is the that's really at the end of the day. I think that that is the mindset that we consultants and coaches need to have, especially as external consultants and coaches who are going to be like, oh my God, there's going to be less work and clients aren't aren't maybe taking the people first agenda and putting it into the forefront right now, they might be thinking like, well, that's not practical, you know. So how do we translate that abundant mindset that is like I got something important, I got something to pour into this organization. How does that translate into how you might pitch or sell that? Yes, we need to still focus. Now more than ever. We need to focus on employee engagement, not less, but now more than ever. What are some of the language your abundance might set, might translate to?
0:47:15 - Tom West
I think it goes back to what we talked about earlier. When we say people that are less engaged or less productive. You know, becoming more engaged you get more productive or more product productivity, which is what organizations are looking for. So the value that we can add is helping to show people how to do that, helping people to be more, having better days than not being more engaged in their work, producing higher quality results, producing more. I think that's still attractive to any organization, right? So there may be some that just go straight to well, we need to do a reduction in force. I think it's. Our belief is you just invest in the people. You're going to eliminate the waste within the system, not the people within the system, but you will yield the results that you want. So that's why I'm going to.
0:48:15 - Betsy Jordyn
I'm going to have you say that again, cause I interrupted and I had a reaction, because I want that to be a clip. Eliminate the waste in the system and not the people in the system. Yes, go ahead, say it again, mark.
0:48:25 - Tom West
So what we're looking to do is eliminate the waste within the system, not the people within the system. So the more we can squeeze out waste, the more profitability you're going to have Ultimately, the more success in your measurements you're going to have Ultimately, the more quality you're going to yield ultimately by doing that. And that's what we we we come in and do. We partner with people to identify the waste and help squeeze that out, cause that's what you don't want within your, your business or your organization. It's not really the people, it's the waste that you don't want. And it goes back to what Tom was talking about creating the language. We start by putting on waste goggles, understanding what the wastes are, building language around the wastes and having your leveraging your workforce to be able to identify and eliminate, and not really having Tom and I come in there and identify and eliminate something for you. It's teaching them to do that. So your people are your asset within the business, and waste is the enemy.
0:49:29 - Betsy Jordyn
So oh good, the economy's not the enemy, the waste is the enemy. Yeah, yeah, sorry, go ahead.
0:49:38 - Mark Ryan
This is juicy, isn't it, betsy? Like like we're. We should be doing stuff like this in person, because I foresee high fives and fist bumps and like if we were to do it. Yes, oh, you had been talking about being a people-centric organization. The reality of people is a large percent of their lives are spent at work, but they also are people outside of work. So, yes, being people-centric.
Selfishly, as organizations see that if they can be people-centric and invest into them, importance in their business is going to be better. Beyond that, though, when that person leaves that role and moves into the other roles they play in their life, if you help them have a good day that day, they take a different energy into those other responsibilities. So think about a day where you were frustrated and you what Mark and I say were bad tired. You worked hard all day and you didn't achieve the goal and objective you had for yourself. That's bad tired. Good tired is you put in the same amount of effort and that, but at the end of the day, you saw that you inched forward closer to your goal, and that's good tired. So if we can send people home good tired one during the day, the work they did added more value to your business. But they leave work with a different energy than they would have if you had bad, tired. And now they go into those other very important roles and responsibilities.
Whether they're a volunteer in their local community, a spouse or at a household or at the dinner table, you know if they had a bad day. Whether they're a volunteer in their local community, a spouse or at a household or at the dinner table, you know if they had a bad day, they're not checked into those, they're just going to go through the motions and those other things because you burned them out, whereas if they had a good day, they're going to leave you. They're going to have a different energy at the dinner table and be able to do role modeling to the family and the community around them that the what they do for work is something they love and enjoy. And then people are going to say, well, where do you work? And that creates positive brand image for your company because the way you cared for your person and the energy you gave them at work, that allowed them to do different things outside of work.
So that's people to do different things outside of work. So that's to me that's people centered People. Centered doesn't stop, and I invest in my people so that they could do good work for me. It's not invested into my people so that they can accomplish things they never thought they could without that kind of boldness. And we've seen it, mark.
0:52:05 - Betsy Jordyn
I think what you're saying though I think that it's like I would want to bring it down to like messaging for today, like. So I think that there's something that's really powerful of what I would draw out of what you're saying that I would say to consultants and coaches, particularly external ones, who are like how am I going to sell the work I'm doing in today's like freaked out world? And I would say, like what you said, tom, first is that there is the. You have to be in the abundance mindset. The scarcity mindset is going to get you nowhere, it's not going to help you keep your job, it's not going to help you find a new job and it's absolutely not going to help you as a consultant or coach, to find business at all. And you're never going to advocate for the people first stuff at all, you know. But then I think what Mark is saying how I would just say is like in the, you know, the waste is the enemy and we're not eliminating people, we're eliminating waste. It's like every organization should be in the process of not having waste in the organization. But you would just add to the messaging, now more than ever. But what I would encourage leaders based on what you guys are saying is like involve your people before you quickly, just, you know, bring the chainsaw and cut out. You know, cut out people in departments. Involve your people first in the problem solving. That. If you can do that and we make the enemy not that we have these, we make it clear to say, all right, we got to hit a certain number and then involve your employees in that. And if it comes to the conclusion that just by process alone we can't get there, at least when the decision is made, that there'll be more transparency on that one. But I would say, from a messaging standpoint, is now more than ever, you know. I would just add in those like tweaks that that consultants and coaches should say, instead of like shying away from it, saying now more than ever.
And then going now to what Tom, you just said is let's talk about the business case of what we're trying to do here. So Mark brought up the business case of what we're trying to do here. So Mark brought up the business case of employee engagement leads to more productivity. We need to get more done with less nowadays anyway. But then there's this equally important thing in today's world as brand repute, you know, is that we're an ethical company that is doing right by its people and we are creating the conditions where we're a positive force for the world Brand recognition. So it's like I'd frame all of these and say all right, get really, really clear.
If you're not clear on the value that you bring to the table in your discipline, you're not going to be able to participate in any of the conversations. You're not going to be able to be able to have the strategic impact, no matter what. You have to be super clear on that. But also just adjust the language and say, now more than ever, and come up with those solutions, proactively advocate for your clients that waste is the enemy. The economy is not even the enemy. Waste is the enemy, not the people. Let's engage our people and then we'll see at the end. And I think that you know and then employees will. If you involve them and say we got to get to this particular number in order to survive, you know, and you have like process groups where they're trying to figure it out, I think that you'll people will, you'll have a different outcome. I don't, do you agree?
0:55:04 - Tom West
Yeah, yeah, we've seen that. We've seen that in the past. We've seen it work. So that's why we're believers in it. Um, I think there's a word of caution maybe also is at the heart of lean is people. You know, one of the pillars is respect for people within lean, and what I guess the word of caution would be is not just installing artifacts or things that we associate with lean to along. The other stuff is important, but not as important as really changing the minds and the hearts of those in the work. So you could put down all the tape you want on floors and that type of stuff, but if you don't change the heart and mind of the people doing the work, then you're not going to yield the results that you want. So keeping that people-centered focus is truly important.
0:56:12 - Mark Ryan
I think that mindset if we were back to employee engagement surveys and the voice, the things being spoken on that, whether it's a quantitative Likert scale rating or a comment, so qualitative data, the tone is despair. And what mark's saying is, out of respect for people and equipping them with problem solving capabilities, which now is being called psychological safety, it's the uh, you know, security you have in your role to offer your ideas, good or bad, and not feel or fear for negative consequences, speaking up and you don't feel safe or don't feel that your processes are working. And now your organizational tone, the talk track goes from despair to repair. You start to work together and make, to leave it better than you found it, and that is to me that's that's engagement is you. Disengagement is just a voice, a talk style within your organization that has a bit of despair in it. Engagement is, it's about repair. What can we do with our collective thinking powers, our creativity, our unique skills and abilities to work cohesively as a unit to do something none of us could have done alone?
0:57:36 - Betsy Jordyn
That's good. You guys almost like stole my question. I always have my wrap up question at the end of a podcast, you know, and I feel like you might have answered it, but I'll ask it anyway is you know? We talked about a lot of different things. Is there anything else you want to tell me about employee engagement, process improvement and I'm not asking you the right question. Is there anything? It seems like you kind of did your own wrap up, but is there anything else that you would add?
0:58:03 - Mark Ryan
I I'm spent. I know I had so much fun. This really allowed me to pour my passion into an important conversation and I think people have to appreciate that this is not an overnight sensation. Curating a culture that is engaged is going to take time and it's going to take unwavering commitment. Um, I'm reminded of something I hear my peer often says is excellence is never an accident. It's an act of intentionality. To create these things on purpose and that takes time. And working with someone to help you stay true to that commitment. It's like the equivalent of working with a coach at a gym.
There's going to be days where you don't want to do. It is you. There's gonna be days where you don't want to do it and you're gonna need a third party to keep the the excitement and energy up for those days where you don't want to. And that that's us. I think that's another value proposition, not just the way.
With mark and I and many of the people centered consultants, the way we work is uh at the elbow. I love mark's analogy of we're not uh bar rescue, we are undercover boss, we get. So I think that makes us unique, but in the end, we're true accountability partner, because we want to see you knock it out of the park and we know what it takes to get there and we know, along the way, there's going to be some days where hard work is going to be asked of you and you may not know how to do it and you may not want to do it. And that's where the third party comes in is they can coach you on the how and they're going to help you be accountable to the airy through the follow through.
1:00:04 - Betsy Jordyn
Mark anything you want to add.
1:00:06 - Tom West
No, I'm just thinking. You know, with three improvement nerds, this has been a really great discussion and I think that we could probably keep talking and probably after we hang up I'm going to say, well, I could have said this and I could have said that. So you know, I just think this is a really important topic. Thanks for bringing it up and thanks for the discussion. And it just reminds us again, like or it reminds me again how important lean is to engagement.
And as I reflect back and think of the many years I've spent doing this and seeing how people are changed by getting involved with process improvement, it's a great thing. So it was a great thing for me to get into where the work is done and see lean. That was eye-opening for me and then to have that happen for others and see that in others and then have them go out and do the same type of work and engage people in that. It's just so rewarding and I hope people really catch on to this and understand the tie between people and processes. So thanks for having us on today.
1:01:25 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, you all have your website is remind me of your address, correct? Wwwgreenconsultingcom.
1:01:33 - Mark Ryan
It's a tricky one, so that's why we call it ourself Improvement Nerds. It's much more memorable. So if you Google Improvement Nerds, you're going to find our website in our podcast. So I think that's the easiest one to put out in the universe is Improvement nerds because the green dot consulting group the name green dot is the activity of placing a sticker on a process step that you believe is aligned with the customer's definition of value. So that's where the the name green dot comes. Got it, but greening Group, we're all about being lean. So there's a lot of characters that someone's going to have to type in to put that whole thing in. So save yourself some time here, some efficiency savings. Just type in Approve it Nerds. And what's that? A seven or eight letter reduction in what you have to type.
1:02:25 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, I used to be Accelerator Consulting Group, so I get that one, so that was a very long one, okay. So where I would leave it to, and I would encourage people, because there's a lot of people who are listening, who are not from a lean background, but we should partner, should be partnering with you all. We should be creating virtually this collaboration. So, if you're an HR consultant, if you're an L&D consultant, od consultant or change management consultant or anybody who's really working with the system, I would also encourage you to check out some of your free resources, because I think you have a lot of process visuals that will explain. You know some stuff on Lean, and if you want to start talking about collaboration of like, when can you bring each other in for different kinds of work, I assume that it would be okay for them to reach out to you to talk about, like you know you're doing this part of the work and how can you partner together, you know, as consultants. Is that something that? I assume? Yes, but because of our shared passion.
1:03:24 - Mark Ryan
but just one double check passion, but just one double check and I hope that people listen to this and sense the uh personality that mark and I have. And as you reach out to us, just embrace yourself like we're nerds through and through. We love this stuff and um. So if you think, hey, I'm gonna have to do a 30 minute discovery call with tom and mark, like you're underestimating how much time it's going to take for us to actually get through our little nerd fest. So, like, just double your time.
1:03:52 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah.
1:03:54 - Mark Ryan
When it comes to connecting with us, we just can't help but share our excitement and pull out of you the things you're excited about and just connect the dots between those two things and sit and daydream a little bit about a different world we can create together.
1:04:09 - Betsy Jordyn
So I never understand when people do like 15 minute intercalls and like how do you, what do you do in 15 minutes? Like you got to get to know each other, you got to get into each other's passions, like I don't know how many pre-conversations we all had and we could continue having it and we'll probably have some stuff, cause I think we're all going to go to Disney at some point. We'll have all kinds of content created. But this has been so great and I highly recommend anybody who's just like really wants for all you other OD consultants, like I was, I highly, highly, highly recommend you get closer to the heart of this very unique field.
I'm super passionate about lean and continuous improvement people, especially around their branding and positioning, because it drives me crazy that I didn't understand. You know this particular value that you all are bringing to the table. Like, if I only knew then what I know now, I can only imagine the impact I could have had in organizations. So you know, definitely reach out to them. If you are not knowledgeable like I was not until I started working with Katie Anderson absolutely do that. I also will leave the challenge for anybody who's a lean and continuous improvement professional that this might be your opportunity to to work on some of your messaging, because lean, you know like the word lean doesn't really convey you know all of this kind of stuff. So I would highly recommend that you work on the value proposition, where actually all of us should get better on working on our value proposition. That's free from jargon, but there's so much depth and meaning to this particular field that it drives me crazy that it was invisible to me and I didn't appreciate it. So that's where it's like I'm an improvement nerd too, yay. So anyway, thank you all for being here. For sure, connect with Tom and Mark as well on LinkedIn. I will have their profiles in the show notes, and so this is one of my first podcasts back from now, the Consulting Matters podcast, where we are going to get into nerding out about our field. So if you got value out of this episode, I would love for you to hit subscribe and share it with your colleagues, and I just want to leave us all with the reminder that what we do as consultants and coaches really matter, especially now. You know, the right consultant or coach, you know, with the right position, can change the world one leader and one organization at a time. So we matter. So thanks for listening and I will see you all next time.
Oh my gosh, so much that is in this conversation and on one level, this episode, I think, is all about making all of us more aware of this very practical, value-driven way to make the people-centered cultures that we talk about actually happen. But on another level, I'm just being honest with myself. I really think this episode is simply my love letter to lean and the people who practice it with heart. I want more consultants, coaches and leaders to see what I now finally see that took me so long that lean isn't just a way to employee engagement as well as high performance, it is the way. And so if you're in lean operational excellence, continuous improvement, agile, six sigma, whatever you might call it let me know if I'm getting all of this right about the value of what you do and tell me what I'm missing. I'm also curious to hear what's resonating with you from the conversation I had with Tom and Mark, so you can find me on LinkedIn and drop a comment, dm me, or you could drop me an email at Betsy, at Jordyn. And in terms of next steps, if you're an organizational consultant of any type, internal or external. Make sure you connect with others who have complimentary expertise and take the time to fully get what they do, so you can partner and refer each other more effectively. That's the big lesson I would take from this episode is I wish I can go back in time. I wish I can go back to my time when I was an internal OD consultant at Disney and we did have like a continuous improvement team, but I really didn't know how to partner with them in what I understand now, and so I wish I knew that. I wish, all the times that I did all kinds of employee engagement initiatives as an external consultant, that I knew I could bring in lean consultants to help me out with it. There's so many things I could have done. I wish I would have known that.
As it relates to lean people, I'm going to just since this subject is about you and not to say you do this more than all of the rest of us do we all do it. I would encourage you to pay attention to how much jargon you use, particularly on your website and when you're describing what you do. So let's just take the website, for example, or looking at your LinkedIn profile If the leader that you want to work with landed on either one of those things. Would they say that you're using words that resonate with the words that they use, or is it more lingo? And if you're using more lingo, how can you flip it a little bit more? How can you get out of your head and into your heads of your ideal clients and use the words that resonate with them? I think that if there's like a shift that would make the biggest impact for those all of us, not just lean, because we all do the jargon is we need to get rid of all the jargon and start using the language that our clients are using.
And if you're in a place where it's like I'm just trying to figure out like, where do I fit in and stand out? Like, okay, there's a million lean consultants out there who do what I do, how do I stand out? Or how do I take my practice and make it stand out compared to all the other consultants and coaches out there? And it's just hard to see all of this stuff on your own, you know that's where I can help you. The thing is, even though I didn't get lean right away, I do get organization development, type of work, organizational improvement. I do get the clients that you want to attract and I can help you find those words that resonate with them. So, again, head on over to my website. You can learn all about my services at Jordyn slash services, or just hit that big pink button at the top and request a discovery meeting and we can talk about what it looks like to partner together. So that is it for today's episode. If you are a lean practitioner and want to be inspired completely inspired by the ROI of elevating your strategic positioning and messaging, you will not want to miss my next episode with Katie Anderson. She tells you all about her journey, so please be sure to hit subscribe wherever you're listening right now or wherever you're tuning in. And until next time, thanks for listening and have a great day.
