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0:00:00 - Betsy Jordyn
So are you somebody who is thinking about making that courageous leap between employment and entrepreneurship and you're just wondering how in the world do I make it happen? Stay tuned for a powerful conversation with Dali Hamush, who is on my latest episode of the Enough Ready Podcast. And welcome to the Enough Ready Podcast. This is the show for consultants and coaches who want to forge their own path to success in their careers and their lives.
I'm your host, betsy Jordan, and I am a business mentor, a brand messaging and positioning strategist, and I am dedicated to helping consultants and coaches, just like you, take all of their amazing experiences and repackage them into a business that they love so that they can create the life that they love. And on today's episode, I'm going to share the powerful story from one of my latest business launches with my client, dali, and we're going to talk all about his journey and how he made that leap, what he learned along the way and actually how his own experiences of transforming his career really mirrors what he wants to do with his own clients. So, without further ado, welcome to the show, dali.
0:01:13 - Dali Hammouch
Thank you, betsy. It's an honor to be here. I think the first time I came across your work was through a podcast, and in a million years I wouldn't have envisioned myself being one of your guests, so it's really for me a milestone being here. Thank you very much for the invitation.
0:01:34 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, it's a milestone for me because ever since we started working together, I visualized this day for where we are going to be able to talk about your journey, and actually this is a two-part podcast series, so we're going to be talking about your journey and then we're going to have a follow-up episode next week where we're going to get into your whole vision around transformational change and how it's actually very different from other types of change, and I'm so excited to get into that episode and learn all about that. But let's start with here. Let's talk about your experience. Before we get into your business, let's talk about what did you do prior to even thinking about starting a business. I know when we started working together, you were a chief learning officer, but there's a lot more behind that background, so could you share a little bit about that?
0:02:22 - Dali Hammouch
How far do you want to go?
0:02:24 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, you could summarize what kinds of things I know. You've worked in many, many companies in many countries and you've had many different roles, but just kind of share a little bit of a snapshot of your background.
0:02:36 - Dali Hammouch
I think, if I summarize it around, I think, three main eras. This is the first one where my dad had bakeries, restaurants. He was an entrepreneur and he was a business owner. So from the age of eight, me and my brothers and sisters started working with him after school, weekends, all the time. And I think in my mind at the time, this natural progression is I'm going to work with my dad and that didn't happen just because I wanted to see if the grass is greener on the other side.
I went to business school, started working in business development and sales, and that was another the second era where I thought that's what I want to do and I want to end up a VP of sales or business development in a large company. At a certain point I start to feel like I need to change. It was not enough for me. We started to get repetitive and there was more or I thought there was more than just trying to get the numbers at the end of the month. Then came the third era where I decided, oh, I want to go into HR, and that was the third era where I started doing more OD work, leadership development, talent development, and I had a natural progression until the last role that I filled in the company before we started working together. So I think that's where, for me, change and transformation have been part of my DNA and I need to realize it until late in the game.
And then the other thing also for me is that ability just to learn and stay curious. So I think whenever I was in a role and certain point things start to get repetitive, I would start getting curious about what is that thing on the edge, what is that thing on the periphery, and then I start gravitating towards it, learning and then transforming to something else. And actually that's how I discovered your podcast. I listened to a lot of podcasts and then there was this podcast where you were a guest on it and as I was listening to it I'm like oh, I like what Betsy is saying. So I Googled you and then end up on your YouTube page and started listening all to your videos. Until certain point I felt bold enough to contact you because I was intimidated. And then we started working together.
0:05:04 - Betsy Jordyn
So it's interesting is like there's a couple of different threads that I would want to pull out from what you just shared. So there's this one thread is entrepreneurship is actually part of your DNA, so it's almost like you wanted to go in a different direction, but entrepreneurship and what you're doing now is congruent almost with your background and I think that's interesting for me to relate to that, because I grew up in a family where my dad had his own shoe stores. My grandmother was an entrepreneur actually a seed money for my business actually came from an inheritance I got after my grandmother had passed and I wanted to honor her and that's where I got my money for my first website. So I think that there's something interesting as it relates to entrepreneurship as part of your DNA and then really fulfilling that in your life. Now, is that accurate or am I just making something up here?
0:05:56 - Dali Hammouch
I think it's accurate because that's when I look around me. Many members of my families are entrepreneur and they're successful entrepreneurs. I think for me it's about readiness. So I didn't feel ready to be on my own for many reasons, and I think you touch upon them many times in your podcast. But the imposter syndrome, the scarcity, fear there were so many things that every time it was, I thought about it. I was not ready until recently where I think it became so clear to me that that's the next step, that's the next iteration, and I have to do with whether it's going to be success or no. I don't care, as long as I go through the process of doing it. So for me it was around readiness, because I always believe there is opportunity and readiness we always have. Everyone has a set of opportunities that come to them and sometimes you let certain opportunities go because you're not ready. And for me that's what happened when we met the opportunity, met my readiness and then that's what launched the next phase.
0:07:09 - Betsy Jordyn
So let's put a pin in that, because I want to come back to you when you got to the readiness and I just want to make sure I'm clear on your background. So you have like this one theme of your background is entrepreneurship was seemed to be part of your DNA, as well as change. But then also, from a professional standpoint, it sounds like you served in a lot of different parts of the organization before you moved into an HR, learning and development and an OD role. It seems like you've got a broad perspective on the business before you took on more of that support role. Is that accurate?
0:07:42 - Dali Hammouch
Yes, and I think that comes from the way I was brought up professionally through my dad businesses, so you didn't do only one thing. You have to do whatever is needed on that day. So you have all hands on deck. If you are needed in bringing, for example, the bread from downstairs to put it on shelves, you do it. If you are needed to serve the customers, you serve the customers. If you needed to work the cash register, you work the cash register.
But for me, when I started working organization, I couldn't be confined to just doing my own role and say, oh, I can't do that other things because the way that I was brought up. So I was very curious and I would follow threads and just try to understand how my job connects to the other person, how it connects to the value chain, and then by then usually there were opportunities coming where they're like oh, if you're interested in this, why don't you come and do it? And it continued like that. So for me, I think I had that entrepreneurial DNA that I brought with me to companies. So a lot of time when I took on roles, I would basically change those roles, transformed them, just because I was curious, and I would keep adding things to them and experimenting with whatever things. I thought that was interested and I would serve the business and serve my development. So for me I think that entrepreneurial street continued. I was maybe an entrepreneur in organizations.
And that's also, for me, what I had fun, because I was never a maintainer. I was never the person that I will take a role and just stick with it as it is. I need to improve, I need to build, I need to explore.
0:09:25 - Betsy Jordyn
So it sounds like there's an entrepreneurial kind of thing that allowed you to not feel constrained by the box, that maybe the organizational role put you in and allowed you to kind of invent your role, and we're definitely going to talk more about that one. But the other thing that I'm hearing in this is that you have this curiosity around the connectivity of all the different parts of the organization and this seems like do you feel like that, having that kind of like systems view and understanding how all those pieces fit together, do you feel like that that is what fueled you to move into, because it's not like you were just in an executive role. You were a chief learning officer, so you ascended to the C-suite. Do you feel like that? That broad perspective played a key role in your ability to get to the top position in your area.
0:10:15 - Dali Hammouch
Yeah, definitely, and I think we had a conversation with this, I think a month ago, betsy, around professional identities and I think I was fortunate not to be brought in that system. So usually HR people, they're really HR Salespeople, they're really just sales and they put those lenses that they see the world with. But putting those lenses, they make the choice, or the unconscious choice, to not see the word differently from other people's perspective. Also, I think there is this myth that management and HR, it's a science but it's not A science means that I can do the experiment over and over again and have the same results.
You worked enough as an OD that you can take the same company and you work with a team of leaders and you try to do the same approach and you'll get different results if you go to another part of the organization. And I think for me that's what allowed me to just fall in love with the challenge and the problem, but not with the expertise in the toolbox. And when you do that, when you have that mindset of how those these things connect, fuel each other, shape each other, then you will not seem only from one perspective, because you could be sitting with the finance guy or the HR guy or the product development guy, and you know that when they bring their expertise they bring in a specific view of the world and my role or my gift because I've been in many parts of the organization is to understand that there is merit in that expertise but there's also limit in how it portrays the world.
0:11:57 - Betsy Jordyn
Got, it Does that make sense.
Yeah, that's beautiful, and so I feel like principle number one that I would love for listeners to walk away with from our conversation right now is number one is if you're still kind of on the bubble and you're not sure, if you want to make the move, you can be a highly effective entrepreneur. That will give you skill sets that will make you successful as an entrepreneur. But as an entrepreneur, the key things are regardless of where you fit in the organization, don't be stuck with the box that you're in. Be curious about the entire system, all the different areas, and do what you need to do to support solving the problem with a multifaceted perspective, and that will help you not only be more effective in your role there but also set the seeds for the next phase of what you're going to do. So I really love that. Do you feel like that? We kind of hit that point well.
0:12:47 - Dali Hammouch
It's really accurate. I was mentoring a young higher assistant point and they had this really not inspiring, not motivating job and they felt stuck and as I was having a conversation with them, their whole narrative was round I'm miserable. This is unfair. This is not what I want to do and I think for me, working with him was round. What is the opportunity you have there to learn that's going to be amazingly used in the future, and for me, when I look at something like that, what I see the opportunity is you know firsthand what a miserable job feels like. So when you're going to evolve and you will get there you will have to design inspiring work. You know when somebody is demotivated, why they're demotivated and how to motivate them and how to make a work experience great. There was always, there is always a learning experience and a learning thing that you can bring from the worst experiences.
0:13:51 - Betsy Jordyn
Wow, that's powerful, you know. So, no matter where you're at, you can always find yourself as an opportunity where you can get curious, you can learn. Leading with curiosity is going to be a key that will help you, you know, make better decisions, solve better problems, but also have more emotional resilience. While you you might feel miserable, but then you could learn about it and then that's something that you can pass on other people, so that's really cool. So I feel like we got point one, so let's talk about point two, which is all about readiness. So you were doing a great job in your career and, like, when did you start noticing that? Like I really think I want to, you know, act on this entrepreneurial DNA that I've got going on here and just, you know, put up my own shingle. When did you just start noticing not acting, but noticing. When did you start listening to the podcast and what was it that made you start? You know, doing that due diligence to learn a little bit more about. You know, making this transition.
0:14:46 - Dali Hammouch
I think the thought was always there. You know, usually jobs go through a cycle whenever you hired for a new job, there's the honeymoon, then there's the peak and then there's a, you know, a moment where you feel like either I'm done or the organization is changing, that it doesn't reflect your values or your aspirations. So every time after the peak, this thought will come back around. Well, why don't you become a master of your destiny and just be an entrepreneur? And every time, you know there was the next shiny thing that comes, and it was not only shiny, it was really something that I wanted to do. So I'll be headhunted, there'll be another opportunity and then it keeps going on like that.
I think the pandemic, as for many people, acted as a catalyst for, I think, change, or radical change, or small change, depending on the people and for me, there was so much loss during the pandemic and before the pandemic. I lost my mom in 2019. I was still going through the grieving process and then the pandemic hit. And for me, I saw many young people on my team, on the organization, just struggling with the pandemic and the impact of it, and there was so much pain, so much misery and I realized that I have the strength, having been through many experiences in life and many challenges, that I could coach, mentor, help people through change, transformation, through struggle, through pain.
And the question came so what are you going to do about it? If you have this gift, what are you going to do about it? Are you going to be just helping one person who are in team at the time, or you can help many people? And that's where the idea started to come back around. Well, why don't you launch your own business and put that gift in service of the people, in service of the next generation, in service of anyone who's struggling, and see how you can help and do your part in that sense? As I started thinking about that, I started exploring the digital nomad, the entrepreneur, starting my own business, and that's how I ended up connecting with your content.
0:17:09 - Betsy Jordyn
So it sounds like, then is you know, throughout your whole career, you've always had this in the back of your mind and as the career went from the honeymoon to the discontent, you had all those experiences that kind of reinforced that. But the catalyst for you that's like, okay, you lost your mom in 2019, the pandemic came and it's like, okay, I want to be in charge of my destiny, I want to be in charge of my career, and that's when it was like, okay, that's the catalyst that got you moving, and usually am I oh, no wait that you're going to question that.
0:17:41 - Dali Hammouch
I didn't get there.
0:17:42 - Betsy Jordyn
I want to get this right.
0:17:44 - Dali Hammouch
Yeah, I think, as you said, I reflected on it. I think I was always in charge of my career. That's why I change places and change companies. I think for me, the catalyst was finding my unique gift, or finding the thing that I'm passionate about, which is helping others access their potential, go through pain. I believe that misery is optional. Nobody should be miserable in a job. Life is already hard, but in a job where we paid to work, we shouldn't be miserable. We shouldn't create miserable environments. And for me, whenever I go to organization and find this toxic environment or these people suffering in silence for months, for years, that is not acceptable for me. No, you're right. And for me, that's when I realized that my gift is getting into that toxicity, or getting into that environment and shifting and changing it so it becomes this amazing human-centric environment and having people thrive and be happy to work, when I realized that that's what I'm good at. That's for me where it started to shift around. Well, maybe I can do it in another way.
0:19:03 - Betsy Jordyn
So what brought you to that clarity? Was that something that you had clarity before you and I worked together? Or is that something that we got clarity on as we worked together around what this vision was all about, what your gift was and the impact that you can envision yourself making?
0:19:20 - Dali Hammouch
Oh, definitely it was you, betty. You really pulled it out of me. I remember our session. It was painful but it was definitely you. You were amazing, but you were relentless to getting at the heart of what really drove me and propelled me and it was magnificent. It was painful but it was magnificent, and I think I owe it that to you. You have that skill of really seeing and honing on what makes somebody unique.
0:19:50 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, the nice thing is with someone like you is there was just so much there to work with I did. All I had to do is pull it out. I wasn't like I was like going to do a fishing, putting my fishing line into like an empty lake. You know no fish. You know that you had so much there, so that's interesting.
0:20:06 - Dali Hammouch
So just for your listeners when I see it was painful. It was still a very nice process, so Betty will take care of you. So it was not that painful. I was just like joking. I don't want to scare your listeners.
0:20:18 - Betsy Jordyn
Okay, but I want to be realistic because it's like you mentioned the imposter syndrome. So this is where I was kind of getting at, because a lot of times, like, we have these visions and then we talk ourselves out of it because of the imposter syndrome. And I think that what you're alluding to is like this imposter syndrome could come up before. That would keep you stuck in your tracks or it could be as you decide to step into this process. But I feel like unless you really start engaging and wrestling with imposter syndrome, you're not really on the right track, because then you're being too safe, you're not really hitting your zone of genius. Like the imposter syndrome, I look at it as like a threshold guardian. You know, if you picture like Wizard of Oz and you know the, you know the, you know Dorothy and the rest of the gang, you know wind up at the Emerald City and they knock on the door and the you know the guy there is. Like you know, are you really sure you want to come in and testing them?
I feel like imposter syndrome sort of like that Like are you really sure you want to live in your zone of genius? And so if there's not somewhat of a wrestling match and I'm just being that external manifestation of what you want and you're. You're not wrestling with me, you're wrestling with yourself. I'm just saying, yes, you can do it. I'm taking the positive, the positive, the positive aspect, the light at aspect of the imposter syndrome like, yes, you can do it, but are you sure and so I feel like that that was actually a transformative experience in our process is when you embrace that and then really came to the decision like, yeah, I actually do want to do that. Does that all make sense? Or am I just like being too symbolic about it? Or, you know, to accept the hero's journey?
0:21:57 - Dali Hammouch
Except the wizard of odd the reference, they all make sense because I've never saw that movie.
0:22:01 - Betsy Jordyn
0:22:03 - Dali Hammouch
And then I always make fun of my friends who are in North America, because I grew up in Casablanca so we never had the same side guests or you know movie references. So a movie that here everyone know I'm like what, what is that? Oh, I don't get the reference of that.
Okay so but I get the message behind it. I think for me, the imposter syndrome came after. I remember we were about to hit the go button on I don't know if the website or the messaging, and we had this conversation like, oh I, I feel like I'm not ready, I feel it's not the right thing, and we had that moment. When you're like Dali, that's your imposter syndrome. I didn't have it before and the reason why Betsy is I have.
I have made myself comfortable with failure throughout my life and actually Amy Edmondson has beautiful, she wrote a beautiful book about that but for me just side notes I don't know if it's the same schooling system. I don't think it's the same schooling system as the US, but our first year of primary school, so just after kindergarten, I failed that year, like who fails that I failed, that I failed. Two years out of high school, I did two years of law school that I failed, and so for me, failure was never an issue Because, again, coming back to the point we made earlier, I always saw it as, oh, it's a learning opportunity. It just means that I'm not good yet at that and there is another thing waiting for me. So that's why, coming to you, I was really excited about the journey. The imposter syndrome happened when it became a reality, when we work together. We got the message like we're about to go. I think live on like hold on a second. I didn't sign up for all that.
0:24:09 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, hold your horses here. Okay, so I love this because this is this is an interesting way to look at like when these different types of like fears and challenges will arise. So, as a release to your backstory is like, thing one is curiosity and seeing the big picture and bringing the connection has always been a part of your part of your DNA. The entrepreneurship is a part of your DNA and so, wherever you are, you can, you can use those skills which will help you if you ever want to act on that entrepreneurial idea. Thing number two is there's a readiness component that, even though you might have that inkling that you want to start something you know, go focus on just being successful in your career in that particular way. But the readiness and the readiness might come with a variety of different things, but for you it was all watching the suffering and watching all the stuff that happened with the pandemic.
And then three, what got you to move from idea into moving into some sort of direction is getting clarity on your gifting, your passion. But number four, that for you, failure is not the issue. Failure is an option for you because of your passion, or learning that learning, having that learning mindset, that growth mindset really for you, makes that fear of failure a non issue. That was not a thing for you, but when it came from moving from idea into reality, that's when the imposter syndrome rear. To test for you. It might have for other people maybe it happened earlier in the process, but when we were like right now we're going to hit play on this website, that's when it happened for you.
0:25:49 - Dali Hammouch
Yeah, and it reflects is on that bit and realize what happened at that moment was the transition and the processing of change. I was so in action mode that I didn't process the transition that I was going through and when that moment came in, I was still that corporate employee and I haven't made the switch to entrepreneur, business owner, so it's came too fast for my transition. So once I think we talk about it and realize that like, oh, I have to make now this internal transition because now I'm business owner, I have to bridge that that's so beautiful.
0:26:31 - Betsy Jordyn
So that's where a lot of times I think that other programs don't work. For a lot of people is it's all focused on action, action, action. But the reality is is it is not just the action, it's the actions on the surface, but underneath it is this identity shift that you were going through from from being an employee, to an entrepreneur, and you didn't really recognize that. So that's when all the questions like do I have what it takes? Can I really make this thing work? That's when all of those things came up.
0:26:59 - Dali Hammouch
Yeah, and for me, I think, once I realized that the switch happened because it was the old me, the part of me that was secure in a corporate paying job, that was like okay, I don't recognize what you're doing here, this is not what I fit, this is not where I'm the most performing. So there was this gap that that started to be, that was created by this new action that was put in in the world and I never took the time to say wait, now I have to shift. Also, the way that I portray myself, I hold myself and I see the world.
0:27:34 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, so for this is such an important topic and I know everybody who's listening can relate to what you're talking about this imposter syndrome so can we take a couple more minutes to unpack this imposter syndrome idea with you and your experiences? That okay with you.
0:27:48 - Dali Hammouch
0:27:50 - Betsy Jordyn
So could you share a little bit more about, like, how did you like, what are the signs or the symptoms that you experienced that made you realize like, oh yeah, it's imposter syndrome? What were the things, what was the stories that were going on in your head or what were you feeling in your body that made you realize like, oh yeah, this that's what I'm dealing with right now?
0:28:12 - Dali Hammouch
So should we start a controversy on your podcast A?
0:28:15 - Betsy Jordyn
0:28:17 - Dali Hammouch
Sure, no well, I'm not gonna get into that, otherwise gonna get along, because I have trouble with the imposter syndrome. I think for me it's not that it doesn't exist. I think for me, just now, it's been thrown on anything and certain cases it's not imposter syndrome. I think you know for me when what happened is. I realized in my body, I was tense, I Was having this spiral of negative thoughts. I was constantly in my head instead of being present or being connected to the work, and Usually when I feel tension in my neck and on my back, that's a sign that there's something that I'm holding on to that I'm not able either to process. Put in front of me so I can deal with it or let go.
And you, of course, like a sleep. You know, one sleep is not Optimal. So for me I could see that and then the really the moment, or I realized something was happening. We were on a call and I kept challenging you and I kept, just like you know, send this negative energy at you and we're both like very talkative person and we can challenge each other and I could see like the conversation, just like it's, the energy is going up, going out, it's just point. I realized, okay, there's something happening here and that's what it done on me. And you know, I Think I've gotten good over the years at recognizing those moments when something is happening. So I think that's something that I advise everyone to work on is what are the signs within your body or in a Relationship that can tell you that something's happening within you? It has nothing to do with the topic, it has nothing to do with the other person, it has nothing to do what you're trying to do or say it's all has to do with something that is happening inside you.
0:30:13 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, I, it's funny because you and I talk about that a lot because, like I'm, I'm stepping out of my comfort zone into writing a book and I it's funny for me because I hear myself acting the same way with my book coaches I, as you, are with me and I think it's like anytime we want to just really resist the process Because the person that you're working with who's holding out the vision for our potential, you know, until we see it for ourselves, like you're not really wrestling, like it's not personal to me, I'm like, okay, well, I I'm just holding up the mirror what you said you wanted and you're like, ah, you know, and that's a good sign.
And I think that the other thing I would just add in about the imposter syndrome at that particular moment that I think you Did really well, is that you didn't judge it in a negative way. Like to me that was the most important thing again With your learning bias is you got curious about it and what it meant to you, and you didn't just get like Judge you about yourself. You didn't get angry with yourself for having it, you just got like, huh, I wonder what's going on here? I, I experienced that from you. Is that, is that accurate around, like your mindset?
0:31:17 - Dali Hammouch
Oh yeah, definitely, and I think you know we can invite Brinne Brown to the conversation ground chain and because if you judge it, then automatically you're going to go into shame. The moment you go into shame, the learning stops and the growth stops. For me and that's why I'm very passionate about human-centric organization, creating healthy and safe environment is that as humans we are a sum of contradictions and we have to allow those contradictions. And the moment you embrace them within yourself or within others, then we create those beautiful Environment where people can thrive and excel. So if I judge myself, then I'm not accepting my contradiction. I'm not a monolith. I am really a sum of those contradictions and I have to embrace them.
So for me, being failing, doubting myself, being at loss or losing my way is part of my humanity. It's part of my process. I don't have to be on top of my game 100% of all the time. It's impossible to do that. That's a recipe for perfectionism, which is a recipe for burnout. So I need to embrace myself At the level, at the place where I am right now. And if I, right now, in front of you, bet see, I'm doubting and I'm feeling less than it's okay. I just have to Get to the root of it and understand why it's happening and then release it and let it go, and then let it go and connect back to the conversation with you. Okay, so let me see if I can understand the dolly process for handling imposter syndrome.
0:32:55 - Betsy Jordyn
And so first thing sounds like is you noticed it? You notice in your body, you notice it in your neck and your sleep and all of those things, and you noticed it. The second thing is that you didn't judge it because that kept you from going into shame. And then it sounds like you got curious about it, you understood about it and then you got re. Once you did that, then you got connected back to Passion vision, what you were really trying to accomplish. So it's almost like we were at this level of conversation you recognize yourself kind of going south over here In this going south area. Is you just recognize that you were going south? You recognize. Then you accepted it, not without judgment. Then you engaged it, figured it, figured out what the messages were, addressed it and then you moved back up into content and that's how you handled it. Yeah, definitely, I want to add something.
0:33:46 - Dali Hammouch
Betsy, because Especially my generation I don't know if the new generations are like that we were brought up that Intellect, the intellect is the highest form of expression and of being and with the years and as a coach, as a mentor, I realized and also now the science shows it Is our bodies. Our physical and physiological Expression of ourselves is really important. So that is why we have to really tune into our body, because it's an amazing source of information of what is happening. And instead of trying sometimes just to think about it.
Listen to the body. Your body will tell you what is happening and your body will sense whether, discomfort, danger, shame, way before it comes to our brain. So that is why I think you know the, the, the, the part around, embracing our physical expression, our bodies, tuning in, listening to it. It's an amazing database for everything that is happening within us. I think it's so interesting because, as coaches, specifically consultants, were using To work.
0:35:01 - Betsy Jordyn
Fine, being in our heads and all of that, what we do and help people. But when we add in the coaching element you know we all know what you're saying like if the coaches who are listening consultants might, this is how I imagine the listeners are going to be responding what you said. I think the consultants are like, yeah, but that's cool, but you know, we don't really need feelings, it's just business, you know from that standpoint. But the coaches are like, yeah, absolutely, that's what I try to help my clients do. But when it comes to our software and you know we have a really hard time applying those principles for ourselves. Those are great coaching principles, you know.
And being like Some, you know like there's a lot of movement right now on somatic coaching and you know whole body and whole mind and that whole thing and you know. But how do you, how do you take like what you know that you help your clients with and you apply it to yourself and your real time situations where you were personally dealing with a lot of resistance, a lot of imposter syndrome, a lot of fear, how did you apply this, you know, and flag it with Does that make sense. Look at my.
0:36:05 - Dali Hammouch
I think I started the same place as a lot of people coaching therapy, junolyn Coaching therapy uh, junolyn meditation, and these are things that you can use, you know, at the same time or one other time. But the things around, how do you capture information about yourself, what you're feeling, and how do you record it so you can get back to it after? So general and helps you with that. And the thing around self-awareness is not about accessing a higher level of existence, the nirvana, or something like that. When I see this movement around conscious leadership and it's about oh, there are five stages and you need to be at the top stage Now, for me, I don't believe in that. That's a neo-Buddhism. For me, the self-awareness is around. When I'm in conversation with you, betsy, am I really aware about what I'm saying and how it's connecting to what I'm really feeling? And am I really aware about how I'm coming across to you? And even I'm saying words? Is it really reflected in my body and in my body language? So it's about authenticity in the moment, right now.
And even in an organization, if you look at the successful leaders, they are able to get into the room and read the emotions and the dynamic in the room and then shift it in a way that if it's a toxic meeting, it becomes a positive, dysfunctional meeting.
And there are leaders that have that, no matter the content. So people think, oh, if you're an expert as a consultant or even an employee, then you're successful. Here is a thing In organizations, usually everyone that is hired, they have a CV On paper, they have those skills. What really makes success of the person is how they are able to connect to others and make them feel safe, make them feel good about themselves and make them want to stay in that conversation and work together. And I'm sure through your career you can remember people who are amazingly smart but nobody wants to work with them. And I'm sure, as a consultant also, you've seen leaders coming into the room and changing, whether positively or negatively, the energy in the room and the work, and the work either gotten better because of their action or gotten worse because of their action.
0:38:31 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh, absolutely. I mean some of the podcast episodes that you and I had talked about that resonated with you, particularly the last one I did with the one I did a few weeks ago with Matt Crofton, who's an executive at Disney, and how she did. She had this ability to tap into how other people are feeling and aligning that. But I think that it seems like the first step is you have to be able to connect with your own emotions. And so I just real quick, I just want you to talk to the Myers-Briggs T people, the thinkers, the consultants, who are the rational left brain people around the importance for their own career success and their ability to make this type of transition that you did, to tap into more of their emotions and their body, and all of that Just real quick, just give a couple tips to that person.
0:39:23 - Dali Hammouch
Coaching and therapy. Start with that, because we are some of experiences that some will remember, some we don't remember. We are some of wounds and good things, bad things, that we bring and we're not aware. We take them and then we put them out in the world. So start there. Second thing journaling, because it's amazing how you remember things versus how things happen really. There's really sometimes a gap and you have to learn really how you shape the narrative or shape an event in your own word and add things to it. And I think for me, for T people, if you're really about performance and excellence, you can't get there if you're not aware about the impact you have on others.
0:40:15 - Betsy Jordyn
Yes, and how other people are impacting you.
0:40:18 - Dali Hammouch
Your empathy begins with empathy for yourself, and understanding that and a lot of people also don't realize sorry to interrupt you, betsy that people observe you all the time. Even before you have spoken to them, you already have an impact and they already form an opinion about you and what you're doing. So you have to be aware all the time. Especially if you're a leader and lead in a team or having that horizontal leadership throughout the organization, you are observed all the time. So for T people, that's the first thing you need to master. The easiest part is a technical part. Whatever your expertise is. The hardest part is really being aware about how you are engaging in the world every second.
0:41:06 - Betsy Jordyn
And so it feels like it goes back to our first point that we had in our conversation is no matter where you're at, there is a power skill that you could have, which is tapping into your own heart and body and connecting the dots between other people and their perspective. So it's not just enough to know your line of business or what your area of expertise, but understand the motivations of other people. Do that in your job, do that now as you are moving into a consulting or coaching role, and do that for yourself as you are embracing your own transformation. So, either way, it's a power skill that translates everywhere, and so it's worth it.
0:41:43 - Dali Hammouch
Yeah, it's a human skill. That's what we do with our family. You know you get you go to after work. You go into the house. The moment you open the door you are able to read the energy in the house. The second thing is you are in tune. Whether you had your spouse or your boyfriend or girlfriend had a good day, bad day, your kid, how was their day? And then as they come in all around the dinner table, they all bring that energy from the day. So you are in tune to how they're feeling and how you can create the best experience dining without the event of the day. Coloring. That. That's a human skill. When we live in society, is it tapping into the other person and making sure that they know they're welcome to the table?
0:42:27 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, that's a human skill in a functional environment. It's not present in a dysfunctional environment, which we will talk about in our next episode. So let's hold on to that one, okay, so let's just talk a little bit more about any other obstacles you might have faced along your journey to bringing your business. So your website is launched and it was the coolest of all the websites because it was my first French and English website that I helped somebody create. My team had to embrace the challenge of how do we get a bilingual website going. So tell me a little bit more. Because your website is live, what else would you say were obstacles that got you from idea to where you are now at your launch?
0:43:10 - Dali Hammouch
I think the first obstacle was and we talked about it is letting go of the past. So that's, for me, the first thing. There's a comfort in having a salary every two weeks. I don't know about the US per-year, we're paid every two weeks. There is a comfort in being part of a larger organization. There's a comfort of having people that reports to you, that look at you in a certain way and feed a little bit of your ego because you need it and you have that power at the organization. So I think for me that was part of it. I knew that I had to let that go. I knew that's a new journey. I knew that I had power that came not within me but within the role, and once I let go of the role, that power will leave and I had to work through that process. The other thing for me in terms of obstacle was really around, where is my place?
0:44:19 - Betsy Jordyn
I mean, if you google coach, there's like millions of coaches, I would say a coblillian would be a more accurate. I like to make up numbers when it seems like it's really, really big.
0:44:33 - Dali Hammouch
Yeah, consultants, same thing. And you look at the different subject matters, there's also tons of them. So for me, trying to find my place, that still felt authentic to me but is still needed in the market and can speak to clients. So for me that was pretty hard and I think with your help we were able to hone into that. I was never afraid of business development just because I've done it for many years, but I think the hardest thing was just to find the right message when I'm doing that. So it doesn't come across as you know, too selzy, but it comes across as me it's dally. It's still the same person with the same expertise, with the same skills who's now offering this, and I think so how did you get there?
0:45:26 - Betsy Jordyn
Any tips to getting to your clear messaging and where you stood out in the market? How did you get there?
0:45:33 - Dali Hammouch
So we worked with you and me. We worked on our how do you call it? The special thing you call it?
0:45:41 - Betsy Jordyn
The brand messaging and positioning.
0:45:45 - Dali Hammouch
I talked about that, and then we talked about the script that I had to work.
0:45:48 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh, the what I do script.
0:45:50 - Dali Hammouch
Yeah, the what I do script. So that was very important. And then the second thing for me it just around coming across as dally, which I used to do when I was business development. You know, it's really it's me. A friend of mine told me that people will work with you because of the way they feel about themselves when they're with you, and for me, maintaining that authentic, genuine connection was very important. The second thing for me is, even with my years of business development, there was hit and misses and I think for me was random we talked about.
This is, and I think it comes from Elizabeth Gilbert, who wrote Eat, love and Pray. She did a talk which was amazing and she was saying that when she was writing her first book it was hard and then she realized that she was not supposed to be good at it. It's her first book, she was not to be masterful of it. So for me that was one of the realizations that helped me, which is I'm not supposed to be good at this new business venture. I'm just starting it, I'm in the learning curve, so it's okay if I miss, I just have to learn from the miss. So for me that was really a good realization. And I think the last obstacle which I underestimated, which is the admin stuff. So maintaining the website, writing things so that I underestimated and it's still part of the work.
0:47:26 - Betsy Jordyn
It's not daunting, it's just you have to plan time for it and it's annoying too because it's not a personality we're, we want to help people, we're big picture people Like the tiki-taki details is annoying. Oh, I remember I remember you getting really annoyed just on the licking your stripe to your kajabi. You were like so what I love about how you're describing your obstacles is it seems like no matter what obstacle you face whether it was the imposter syndrome, whether it's trying to figure out where you stand out, whether it's dealing with it being new and the learning curve, or realm and the admin tasks is every time you hit this point it was like ah, and then you're like I'm normal, this is normal. You tapped into all the other things where you normalize it for yourself. You address whatever the emotions. Then we got back to the task on hand. So no matter what happened in each one of them.
So, yes, you had to work on where you stand out in the marketplace. You figured that out, but you got it in a way that worked for you, and so it seems like that's the Dolly secret sauce as it relates to your. Out of all the things that we talked about, what's the secret sauce to? How do you move from being a C-suite person to a change catalyst, you know, in a consulting and coaching business owner, is really this there's tasks that you're going to be doing that's going to trigger emotional stuff. When the emotional stuff gets triggered, accept it, normalize it, deal with it and then get back to the task. That's the Dolly secret sauce.
0:49:03 - Dali Hammouch
Yes, we will always be tested. You lean into that emotion, explore it, and it's almost like a secret. The moment you put it out there, either talking to somebody else joining about it, it stops getting a hold on you. You're able to see it and then you know, decompose it and then deal with it. And then, after that, the question that always help and I shared always with my co-cheese which is what am I supposed to learn here? The moment I ask that question, the mindset shifts from I got to solve this, I got to dance with it and sit with it and then find a way through it.
0:49:41 - Betsy Jordyn
So is this secret sauce that we just unpacked is so this is your got task? Going on is triggering you into an emotional state that takes you away from the task at hand, and then the first thing is to go from that learning perspective embrace the curiosity, go within, accept it, normalize it, deal with it, come back. Is this what you do with your clients? Is this the essence of how you help your clients with transformational change? Is this a part of your secret sauce? How would you say your journey of transforming you know your career into this calling? How does it mirror what you're trying to create for your clients as a transformational change code? Could you quick actually let me ask you this question a different way Could you give a quick summary of what your business is all about and how does your personal experience with transformation mirror what you want to offer to your clients?
0:50:37 - Dali Hammouch
So my work basically is helping clients with transformational change, and the reason why I call it transformational change is because change is something that is constant. We have it all the time. It's not something new, but we had this old approach, which is we treat it change as a project. So basically, we know what the end state is, and my role as a change expert is to help you navigate from point A to point B. It's easy, it's breezy and it's going to happen. How many changes did you fail, betsy?
0:51:08 - Betsy Jordyn
Almost all of them. Why? Because, well, my experience.
0:51:16 - Dali Hammouch
Yeah, well, because it's not straightforward line.
0:51:19 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, well, and because some, you know, like the people, like it's outside in, it's not inside out.
0:51:25 - Dali Hammouch
Yeah. So a lot of them fail because it's not a straightforward process. There's a lot of complexity and the moment you add the human elements, humans are the most unpredictable, complex thing that can happen in the project. And to think that we're going to put them in a process like sausages and have the end result, that's never going to happen. And in addition to that, the change leader changed themselves the moment they accept the project and the moment they go through it. So they're starting point. By the time they launch the project, they've already changed and shifted, and the environment around them.
So that is why transformational change is not about what is the future.
It's about what is the present capabilities within the person or the team or the organization, what are the possibilities of growth and change in the future and which one will make sense, given where they are right now and how we can make that happen, knowing that there will be many challenges along the way. That makes it impossible for them to get there, and also there will be more opportunities that will come and it will make sense to incorporate them into that effort they're doing and it's not taking them in a different direction than where they started. And that's where curiosity is very important to always look on the edge and look what is coming and be connected and listening to weak signals. That is why self-awareness is very important, because it helps seeing as we shift as a person, as a leader, and as we evolve, and that's where creating self-unhealthy environment for experimentation and failure. They're very important because we might end up in a different place than where we started, but it might be the best place where we should end up.
0:53:11 - Betsy Jordyn
That's awesome. Okay, so there's so much to unpack here, but I think I'm going to save this one for our next episode. So if you are listening and you want to hear us talk more about what does it really take to create this kind of transformational change in an organization, be sure to hit subscribe now on this channel so you can get notified when the next episode that we're going to be talking about gets dropped. But let's talk a little bit about so, like you want to create this kind of change in organization. So you're a coach or consultant or mentor like, tell me a little bit about who you serve and how do people find out more about your business. And then I'd like to hear a little bit about how your personal journey of transformation in your career is perfectly suited to help your clients who are going through the similar kind of change.
0:53:56 - Dali Hammouch
So I just want to go back to something you said, betsy, to help create transformational change. I don't think that I can create it, it's already there. Like when you look at the last five years, how many things we went through, how many things shifted for us as individuals, as employees, as organizations, as team, it's just amazing. I don't think there's any team or individual that is doing the same job they were doing four years ago, let alone what happened in the beginning of the year with chat GPT.
0:54:30 - Betsy Jordyn
I'm going to time you up. Okay, nathan, we want to cut this one out because I want to. I want Dali to answer this question in a different way. So we're getting towards the end of the episode and I want you to start selling your services. So what I need you to do is to talk about, like Nathan if we can go back to the question where I asked him about mirroring this one and then just say you know, like some like, do you talk about like, well, I went through this transformation, this is what my business is all about and then talk about your services.
I have a trusted mentor program. I do workshops, you know you can find out more about me on your website, so we're trying to get to that part. So is that okay? All right? So so, dali, like, I love what you talked about of what it took for you to transform your career, and I wonder to what degree this might mirror what you're trying to do. Would you do us all a favor and share just briefly what your business is all about and how your experience of transformation really aligns with what you're trying to create for your clients and how you help your clients?
0:55:36 - Dali Hammouch
So thank you, betsy. My clients usually are either individuals going to a change in their careers, so I have a trusted mentor, a trusted advisor program where I do coaching, mentoring, depending on where the clients are. I also work with teams that are going through change or transformational change or even change teams to whether I want to have more impact in the organization. So I work also with teams and I have program for teams, intact teams, and also I do executive alignment, working with leadership teams trying to help them get alignment, see how they can make their vision a reality in the organization.
And when we talk change, for me there is change in everything that happens for individuals organization. It could be a learning development team trying to improve their services throughout the organization. It could be a talent team trying to come up with a new strategy for change, for talent management and how to roll it out in the organization. It could be a product development team trying to find a better way to serve their organization. So usually whenever a team or individual organization trying to do something new, that's an opportunity for transformational change and that's what I come to help them either at the level of the individual, the team or the executive leadership organization.
0:57:00 - Betsy Jordyn
So it sounds like then you could also help the internal change leaders lead their change more effectively or, when needed, where they need your outside perspective, you can come in and help the executive team get aligned so that the change leader can be at the table. Is that? Am I hearing that right?
0:57:16 - Dali Hammouch
Yeah, definitely. And for me, the most important thing is not to do the job myself, because I think being a change ready and having changed DNA should be in every organization, every team, every leader toolbox. So for me it's about helping them, developing them so they'll be able to do it over and over again in their career and in other projects and being successful. I don't want to be the person who's always, you know, monopolizing the expertise. I want to share my expertise so after that they're able to do it on their own and having those capabilities even with themselves if they're an individual, either within the team or either within the organization.
0:57:56 - Betsy Jordyn
So you're going to equip and empower them with the transformational change skills that will carry them throughout their career. Tell me again what your website address is and if anybody is listening, who wants to also see it in French. Is it the same URL?
0:58:14 - Dali Hammouch
So you can see that the bottom of the screen, wwwdalihamougecom. It will take you directly to the English and then you'll see Francais, which is French Francais. You click on it and you have the French website. It's Merid. There's also my blog in there how to Get in Touch with Me and my calendar if clients are interested to book a discovery call, which is free, by the way.
0:58:38 - Betsy Jordyn
And you have a I think you have an assessment on there as well.
0:58:42 - Dali Hammouch
Yes, I have an assessment around transformational change, so it's free also, and it has my methodology, so that's also a way for individuals clients. We give it for free because that's also part of the mission of my business is to empower and help leaders so they can download it, they can read it and then do the assessment.
0:59:05 - Betsy Jordyn
And how did your experience of transforming your career deepen your approach or your philosophy, or just your belief in what you do as a transformational change coach? Because of your own personal experience with significant career transformation?
0:59:21 - Dali Hammouch
I think, for me, the empathy and the compassion whenever there's change, there's fear. There's a lot of, sometimes, fear of failure, fear of what other people might say, fear of just the change itself, letting go of the past, getting into the unknown. So for me, I understand that fear. I understand what people can go through. There's also an element of courage to be able to step into the unknown or do something differently. So for me, I understand what it takes to get to that place and be brave and bold and do it.
And also the other thing for me is around embracing the human and the contradictions in change is not straightforward, it's not smooth and we have to embrace that messy part which a lot of time, we don't allow it. We talked about it, but we talked about the pandemic, what happened and beginning 2023, everyone is back to normal in organizations like, oh, it never happened. People are back to work and we're going to work and we don't allow people to process the pain. We're still living with the impact of that. And for me, that element of processing, helping people process the change and go to transition, that's for me, something that I learned the hard way through many experiences and want to bring it to team organizations and individuals.
1:00:43 - Betsy Jordyn
I love that. It's like it's going through it yourself. You got the empathy, the human element, recognizing that that's always a part of it. Dealing with the human contradictions. That's powerful. We talked a lot about different things, about your journey of going from an employee and a corporate leader to an entrepreneur, as and now as a consultant and a coach. Is there anything else that you want to tell me about your experience, and I'm just not asking you the right question?
1:01:10 - Dali Hammouch
I think it's just impossible. Questions Thank you All the questions.
1:01:17 - Betsy Jordyn
I'm sure there is something that I missed.
1:01:20 - Dali Hammouch
I don't think you miss. I think, for me, I'm just thankful that you exist and you do the work that you do, betsy, because you have this unique perspective, unique energy, unique way of doing things, and I want to look at the people you helped. It just amazing the, the, the, the beautiful and the positive work you're doing and you bring into the world. So that's for me. I just want to be thankful that I get to meet you, that you exist, that you put your content out there and it's almost, like you know, a light that is shining and guiding certain people towards where they're supposed to be and to contribute. Thanks for that.
1:02:04 - Betsy Jordyn
Thank you so much for saying that.
That means a lot to me, and you just you know after all the listeners here would probably say you know like. You're just an amazing, unique one of a kind person and it's been an honor working with you, and so, as we wrap up, I cannot thank you enough for being a part of my community and being on the show and for those listening. If you want to have experiences like Dolly had, where you know your authentic self is reflected in your business, please let me know. And if you can find out more about me on my website at wwwbetseyjordancom and Jordan's with a Y, not an A, there's another Betsy Jordan out there who gets all my emails, so make sure you do that. And if you want to catch our episode, which we will be following up and just talking a lot more about how do you really ignite transformational change in organizations and what are some of Dolly's proven best practices we're going to build on that. Definitely, hit subscribe now so you don't miss that, and so until next time. Thanks for all. Thanks, all of you for listening.
1:03:07 - Dali Hammouch
Thank you, betsy.
1:03:09 - Betsy Jordyn
Thank you for tuning in. If today's episode lit a fire on you, please rate and review. Enough already on Apple podcasts or subscribe wherever you listen, and if you're looking for your next step, visit me on my website at Betsy Jordan dot com and it's Betsy Jordan with a Y, and you'll learn all about our end to end services that are custom designed to accelerate your success. Don't wait Start today.
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