[0:00:00] Betsy Jordyn: Betty.
[0:00:05] Betsy Jordyn: So hello and welcome to the Enough Ready Podcast, the place where we empower consultants and coaches to forge their own path to success. I'm your host, Betsy Jordan, and I am thrilled to have on the show today denise Maso White, who is a client. We've been working together for the last several months, and she is a former CIO turned executive coach and business owner. And we're going to be talking all about how do you make that shift in your mindset from an employee to an entrepreneur.
[0:00:33] Betsy Jordyn: So welcome to the show, Denise. So excited to have you here.
[0:00:38] Denise Musselwhite: Thanks, Betsy. I'm really excited to be here. It's my pleasure.
[0:00:44] Betsy Jordyn: Let's go back in time a little bit. So you and I have been talking actually way longer than it was from when we started working together. So take me back to that moment that you decided, you know what? I really like being a CIO, and I want to make a move. And actually, you could throw a little bit more into your experience as a CIO as well.
[0:01:06] Denise Musselwhite: So I want to say that I had been dreaming about being an entrepreneur for a good part of my adult life and had always been looking for consulting projects and side gigs as a CIO and speaking on the circuit. So I always knew I had this passion for being outside of the role at an organization. But the Pandemic really inspired me because I finished up a Master's degree in leadership during the Pandemic, and my final project was dedicated to understanding the challenges that women face in Stem fields and the research that I did about how the Pandemic was really going to push us back decades,
because the Pandemic has really impacted women negatively who were professionals.
[0:02:04] Denise Musselwhite: That was a turning point for me. I felt empowered to step into entrepreneurship and tackle that subject, and I didn't know how I was going to do it when I made that decision, but I knew that I was going to do it, and I started to have conversations with my husband about supporting me.
[0:02:25] Betsy Jordyn: So what were the ways that you discovered that the Pandemic negatively affected women in a way different from men?
[0:02:33] Denise Musselwhite: Well, I can talk about how it impacted me, which is the story of many women executives. I was the CIO for a large, prestigious, independent school during the Pandemic, and practically overnight, my team and I had to transition an entire organization to an online organization. And because of that responsibility, I was unable to be present for my own family and children. I just couldn't. My primary and focus was on that of everybody else's children and everything that the school needed in order to make that transition.
[0:03:15] Denise Musselwhite: It was okay with me that that was happening, but I was understanding that I was making that sacrifice. And because of that, many women left the field because they couldn't make the sacrifice. They were single moms or they worked in a role that was eliminated, or they had smaller children at home and they couldn't perform the duties of their role and they had to take a step back unplanned. So it was as women typically take the role of the primary caregiver, and we do that on top of being professional, busy, high achieving executives.
[0:03:57] Denise Musselwhite: And that was a turning point for me.
[0:04:01] Betsy Jordyn: Wow. So it's like, did that research and then your own experience coupled with this ongoing feeling of wanting to be an entrepreneur, is it just like one of those serendipitous moments where all of them came together and you're like, okay, now is the time?
[0:04:17] Denise Musselwhite Yeah. And then I started to pursue understanding what it meant for me to leave my 25 plus year career as a Chief information Officer, technology manager, and what that needed to look like for me. And when I started to dig deep, I realized that I had been on the speaking circuit, teaching schools all over the country how to implement best practices in technology and consulting with schools all over the country on how to implement best practices.
[0:04:49] Denise Musselwhite And when I think back on all of that speaking that I did over a two decade career, everyone in the seats in my audience was male. It's just like the light bulb went off. And I'm like, okay, wait a minute. The first thing I need to do is I need to talk about something different. So I went back to work. And when we went back from the pandemic back to the office, I decided that I was going to change what I talked about on my social media and on the speaking circuit at conferences.
[0:05:26] Denise Musselwhite I started to develop presentations that were geared towards individuals who felt underrepresented in technology instead. And then when I did that, guess who showed up? People who looked a lot like me and who needed my support. So it stuck. And then I knew what I needed to do. I needed to create a consulting and a coaching practice so that I could support them all through the invisible barriers that exist for them that men in the industry don't experience the same way.
[0:06:04] Betsy Jordyn: So what's really interesting I love what you're saying, it's so bang on and you're so in the flow when you're saying that, but it wasn't always like that. So when we first started working together, you were not that clear, and it actually took you a while to even really sign up to work together. Like, what was going on with you in terms of that transition from the employee mindset to this entrepreneurial mindset. And then let's get into what would help you get clear on this new role that you have.
[0:06:32] Denise Musselwhite Well, you're right. I found clear now because I had the chance to work with you and you helped me get clear. But I did a lot of things that didn't work, and I did some things that did work what worked was I decided to hire a coach, a life coach, to help me. What I understood to be was like grieve my 25 year CIO career and to separate from a role that I frankly got great satisfaction from. And it had become part of who I identified with in a very interesting and important way throughout my adult development. Because I started in CIO and technology management positions in my mid 20s.
[0:07:21] Denise Musselwhite So it was part of who I was. So I had to dig deep to find out who I was. Without that title, that was really hard. It was scary. It was hard. I'm a very analytical thinker, and trying to connect how I felt to a metric was not possible. I needed to just really uncover what my purpose and my passions were and where my strength lied. And it took over a year for me to do that, which is why I kind of went back and forth on making the decision to work with you. And then those fears of spending the money and making that investment when the future was uncertain was definitely something that was scary.
[0:08:16] Betsy Jordyn So it sounds like there's a lot of things that got you to this point. So really moving from that employee to entrepreneur is number one is recognizing that you always had this drive to become an entrepreneur and do your own thing. And that's always been there. So it's just recognizing that that was a thematic thing. Second is just really noticing the things that you were excited about, kind of like leaning into your interest, which is when you were speaking, you saw the audience and it's like, okay, I'm going to start speaking in that particular way.
[0:08:50] Betsy Jordyn: Three is it was leaning into recognizing the sacrifices that are sometimes required of you when you work for an employer. And then it sounds like the fourth thing really is if you are going to move into this direction, it's actually the first step into this new life is to grieve the old life and to let go of your identity, of your professional role. I know that was really hard. It was so much easier for me based on that one. When I left disney and I started my consulting business, that was so much easier than switching my business from consulting to a brand messaging and positioning person because my identity had been so tied up. Being a consultant and being known for that.
[0:09:36] Betsy Jordyn: How did you let that go? What was that grief process of saying, you know what? I'm going to let go of this old identity or this old thing that served me great to this point so that I can make room for something new. What are some tips and best practices that you can offer other people?
[0:09:53] Denise Musselwhite: One of the things that I did that was the most impactful to me was I started to pay attention to the parts of the role that I had as a CIO that I found most joy in and what individuals who reported to me or collaborated with me or I was on a team with came to me for. When I started to pay attention to that, I could see who my new self was. And when I started to visualize and understand that I could apply everything that I learned in that 25 plus year career to step more fully into the ways that I loved the role.
[0:10:45] Denise Musselwhite: Now it really felt like I could say goodbye to the last one because I could see my new self. One of the things that I did during this time with my life coach was future journal. That future journaling I had never done before and it was transformative. I had never journaled without prompts what I thought I wanted in the future with no boundaries. That was really instrumental in my ability to vision what I could create.
[0:11:28] Betsy Jordyn: So what is a future general and how is that different from regular journaling?
[0:11:34] Denise Musselwhite: So, a future journal is where you have a typical journal and a pen, and some people do it with drawings, but Renee Brown kind of talks about this a little bit too. But you take time every single day. It can be 1 minute or it can be an hour, however much time you can dedicate and you write down whatever comes to your mind about your future, your dreams. And it can be silly and it doesn't need to make sense. You just keep writing and you do it every single day.
[0:12:11] Denise Musselwhite: And my coach told me to date them, like, date them a date in the future. And because I was leaving my role, I actually future journaled. The day that I told my boss, wow, I wrote that down, like what I would feel like, what it would sound like, what he would say, so that it would be joyful and happy. Like what my ideal talk with my boss to tell him that I was making the decision to retire from that role, how I would tell my friends I just future journaled the whole experience before it happened, it's very similar to manifesting but more tactical because you're writing it down.
[0:12:55] Denise Musselwhite: So it was really helpful to me.
[0:12:58] Betsy Jordyn: So how close was it from what you wrote about to what actually happened?
[0:13:04] Denise Musselwhite: It was pretty accurate because I had manifested it. I wrote it down and I'm a plan follower or project manager, so I pretty much executed it the way that I imagined it.
[0:13:15] Betsy Jordyn: That's so awesome. You said something that you were taking what you loved about your technology career and turned it into the business. But when I was working with you and when we were going through your branding and you were trying to decide like, do I want to be a consultant to other tech companies? Or what else do you want to do? And I think what I observed is that you were doing the kinds of things you want to do as an executive coach to tech women.
[0:13:43] Betsy Jordyn: You were doing that all along. It's just there was another expertise that you were developing outside of technology, but it was around all of the mentoring and all the stuff that you did for executive women's groups. Is that accurate? And what helped you see that other expertise, if that is accurate, yes, you're right.
[0:14:05] Denise Musselwhite: When I started to pay attention to what people were coming to me for or calling me on or asking to go to lunch about, they were asking for sponsorship, for mentorship, for support, I didn't realize how my leadership style and the way that I presented myself helped other women step into their leadership. They felt brave because I had done it and I was still happy and still thriving. And they wanted to know how I did that.
[0:14:42] Denise Musselwhite: They also wanted to know, how do you overcome being the only woman in the room and not being taken seriously and not being paid what you're worth? And I had examples, real life examples on how I overcame those that I could provide. So you're right. When I started paying attention, I was like, oh, my gosh, I've been doing this all along. I didn't realize it, but I was.
[0:15:09] Betsy Jordyn: Yeah. One of the things that we created in our work together was the Thrive model, which does reflect some of those best practices about what, you know, around those hidden barriers to getting to the C suite. Is there anything that you would be willing to share about your Thrive model and why it's such a core foundation of your coaching practice with your clients?
[0:15:30] Denise Musselwhite: Yeah. The Thrive model is such an integral part of my coaching practice because it is personalized to every single client, and it is developed through a deeper understanding for the client of who they are and where their strengths are and where they want to go. So I'm really excited about rolling that out to my clients because every model is going to manifest and be personalized to that unique client.
[0:16:00] Denise Musselwhite: No two models are going to be the same. And I am thrilled to start to implement it with clients. And the clients that I've started to work on it with are really benefiting from it. So I'm really excited to share that more broadly throughout my launch.
[0:16:21] Betsy JordynL Could you give any previews about what the Thrive stands for? Is it an acronym? Is it a meaning? What's the thrive stand for.
[0:16:28] Denise Musselwhite: So the Thrive stands for the T, the H, the R, the I, the V, and the E all represent a step in the process that I'll use with clients. And the first one, T, is for transparency. This is when clients understand more deeply where their strengths are. And I use a multidimensional assessment in order to uncover where their character strengths are, where their drivers are, and where their risk areas are.
[0:17:05] Denise Musselwhite: And when we understand that, then we start tackling the other letters so that at the end and I'm not going to uncover all the letters because I want there to be some interest in the program. So I don't want to give it all up. But the E, the last letter is Engage and execute. So we start with creating clarity through transparency, and then we end with engaging and executing. And the part in the middle is the best part, the part where we really get to create the client's vision for who they are and how they want to show up in their leadership.
[0:17:44] Betsy JordynL So it sounds like then for the women that you help. So we're kind of like, hinting at it, but we're not being as explicit as you are an executive coach for women in tech to help them thrive in their career and their life. Is this model specific to tech women, or is it something that all women who are executives can benefit from?
[0:18:05] Denise Musselwhite: Well, I think that anyone who uses the Thrive model could benefit because they're not specifically it's specific to women because I'm working with women clients, but I can apply the model to anyone who wants to work with me. And it really just elevates your level of focus and clarity in six key areas. And going through my program, my signature Tech and Thrive program takes you through each step, and at the end of the program, you come out having many successes.
[0:18:38] Betsy Jordyn: In some cases. In many cases, people feel transformed by it. And I can even say that. Just yesterday, I wrapped up a six month coaching engagement with a client, and we both cried. And the reason we cried is because she had transformed. She saw herself in a completely different way than when she started, and it was not because of anything. I mean, I helped her see her strength, but she was showing up in her strengths at work and the payout and the payoff was already starting before we ever finished coaching.
[0:19:17] Denise Musselwhite: So we both celebrated and cried a little, and it was wonderful. So I'm looking forward to all the other clients successes, the ones that I'm working with now and the ones that I haven't met yet.
[0:19:27] Betsy Jordyn: So I love this whole side is like so your transition, it feels like, from a leader to a coach has been complete. Let's talk about the other side of your transition from being an employee to an entrepreneur. What was the changes in your mindset that you had to make from being in a job versus, like, I'm running my own business now.
[0:19:51] Denise Musselwhite: Oh, my gosh. One of the biggest norms that I needed to change was my relationship with the way that I spent money on myself. So I have three children, and at the drop of a hat, I will invest in them and in their development. And for a couple of decades, I worked for an employer who would allow me to have professional development in areas that supported the organization, and I took advantage of those.
[0:20:22] Denise Musselwhite: I didn't recognize that I myself would need to invest in my own professional development in order to succeed and that that was going to have a dollar sign attached to it if I wanted to be successful. Because I could have DIYed myself for months and stayed stressed and overwhelmed. All of the things that led me to want to try something different. So I decided I needed to invest in myself, and I did.
[0:20:53] Denise Musselwhite: And the payoff has been great, but it was a mind shift for me. I needed to understand that investing in myself was investing in my business and investing in support for other women. And that was really difficult. That was really difficult.
[0:21:09] Betsy Jordyn: I love the way you're describing this, though, because it feels like it's a little bit of I'm investing in myself and I'm investing in my business and I'm investing in my future clients. By doing this. It's the three parts of it. It's not just like, okay, I got to spend money, but it's like it's an investment for the future and you're experiencing the payoffs. I love the way that you're thinking about it.
[0:21:30] Betsy Jordyn: Why do you feel that so many people have a hard time investing in themselves? I always use the example of the hot dog cart. Like, if I wanted to open a hot dog cart, I would assume I'd have to go buy a cart and buy inventory, and I'd have to go pay for the permits of where I'm going to put my hot dog cart. And I know I'd have to get the word out about my hot dog cart. Why is it when it comes to, like, a consulting or coaching business, we have a hard time with that same kind of mentality that I have to invest in myself?
[0:21:58] Betsy Jordyn: And how did you get to the point where it's like, I have to invest in this business in order to get a payoff?
[0:22:05] Denise Musselwhite: I think it has a lot to do with the way that women prioritize themselves in the hierarchy of needs of their families. And for me, I always put other people first. So when I recognize that the success of my consulting and coaching practice hinges squarely with me, that no one is going to create work for me anymore, I'm not punching in or going to a corporate office. The office is mine. I recognize that, you know what? I have to do this just like I would invest in my children's education or my own education.
[0:22:49] Denise Musselwhite: When you get older, you forget that investing in yourself is more than just taking a spa day or whatever it is for you. For me, it was gaining expertise in coaching, and I knew I needed to do that in order to feel confident and comfortable stepping into that space for my clients. I wanted to be great at it and to do that I needed to be around other people who were great at it, and that cost a lot of money.
[0:23:25] Betsy Jordyn: What about on the business side?
[0:23:28] Denise Musselwhite: On the business side, I consulted with dear friends who were in accounting and finance, and they provided me with a framework to follow so that I could be financially responsible and understand what it meant to build a business. I bootstrapped my business, so I didn't take any loans or anything like that to do it. So I had to be incredibly discerning about what I invested in. And talking to successful coaches like you on where I should prioritize was really integral to me setting up my business.
[0:24:09] Denise Musselwhite: The other thing that I did was I tapped into local resources. I live in Orlando and the UCF incubator. Is in my backyard, so I tapped into those resources as a support system because I was bootstrapping.
[0:24:22] Betsy Jordyn: So what it's interesting for you is that you built a coalition of many different types of resources that you invested in. And so it sounds like you identified with your future visioning of, like, okay, here's what I want to be in the future. Here's where I am today. I have a variety of things I need to work on, and I'm going to make sure that I have my board of directors, if you will, to guide me towards that particular angle. So it sounds like you have the life coach that's there to help you kind of work through the mindset and make sure that you're in a good place. You have financial advisors to make sure you're being fiscally smart and the incubators as well.
[0:25:01] Betsy Jordyn: What would you say, the role that I played in your board of directors?
[0:25:05] Denise Musselwhite: Well, I mean, Betsy, you were my marketing department and my coach, my consultant. I saw you as the marketing arm of my organization, and I still do. You help me accelerate my clarity around a niche, around content, around how to present myself to the women that I aim to attract because I want to serve them. And so you were definitely part of that board of directors, and your marketing and messaging program was absolutely essential to that.
[0:25:49] Denise Musselwhite: I still reference the action sheets and the visioning documents that you challenged me to complete still today. I reference them often.
[0:26:02] Betsy Jordyn: Awesome. Thank you. I got a big AHA, as you were talking about it is, I don't think that you made the leap necessarily from the CIO to executive coach or from employee to business owner. It feels like you really stepped into a promotion, if you will, into CEO of your business. And it seems like you're kind of like you started thinking of as a CEO is, I need to have my chief team all around me. I need my C suite. So I'm sort of your chief marketing officer.
[0:26:36] Betsy Jordyn: You have somebody else who acts as, like, your chief finance person. I'm sure from your tech background, maybe you're playing dual roles there. Then you have your coaching certification group and people helping you from that standpoint. And so you're like building yourself your own virtual C suite where you're the CEO of your business. That's the big shift for you. It's not from employee to entrepreneur.
[0:27:02] Betsy Jordyn: It's from CIO to CEO of a whole different business that's your very own.
[0:27:09] Denise Musselwhite: Yes. That didn't occur to me before you said it, but yes, you're right. As a CIO, I spent much of my time applying strategic planning processes so that we could scale and shift and be dynamic in the way that we implemented technology solutions. I literally took that expertise and applied it to starting this consulting and coaching practice. And in order to, I created a strategic plan. And I knew I needed marketing support because that's not my area of expertise.
[0:27:44] Denise Musselwhite: And I knew you were in my network and knew I wanted to work with you. We hit it off, and I have deep respect for you. So someone that I trust and you know what's interesting about being the CEO of this new thing is that everybody that I'm working with, I have deep admiration and trust for, that I couldn't have created when I was working for someone else. I get to hand pick the individuals that I work with.
[0:28:20] Denise Musselwhite: I can put that puzzle together, and it can be fun and challenging and supportive, and I can be myself.
[0:28:36] Betsy Jordyn: I love this so much. I mean, it seems like the big transition for you is you manifested a new business that you're visualizing for the future in comparison to a lot of people. And maybe that's the key for how you thought about the investment decisions differently, is that maybe through that future journaling and that future process of you are manifesting in the future is, I don't want to just recreate my career in a business.
[0:29:02] Betsy Jordyn: I want to have a business that's set up for the long term. I want something that will be scalable, and I want something that will give me success on my own terms, the way I define it, using my creativity. And it seems like maybe just intuitively, or maybe this was explicitly like you had that vision, and so in that vision is, of course you're going to invest in that because you're investing for the long term.
[0:29:25] Denise Musselwhite:: Yeah, and I also understood fundamentally that if I was asking organizations and individuals to invest in me as a consultant or a coach, then I must trust that process and do the same.
[0:29:47] Betsy Jordyn: Right.
[0:29:48] Denise Musselwhite: Because I'm expecting people to do that for me or with me. So I need to move that roadblock or that fear, because that's what I'm hoping people will do.
[0:30:03] Betsy Jordyn: This is one of the things I always want all of my clients to have. And somehow you just came to the table, is understanding that the role you're playing and as you go through your own heroic journey, that's where you're going to get all the wisdom that's going to allow you to be that transformational person for the other people. And I wonder if that situation that you just had with that client that you wound up closing out on for the past six months and you're crying because of the transformation, would that have been able to happen if you didn't. Go and do the same thing for yourself first and go through your own transformation and dig into your own strengths. Figure out what you wanted to have to create a thriving life in your own way.
[0:30:43] Denise Musselwhite:: I think that every single part of the very difficult transition away from something that was very stable and secure was absolutely the journey that I needed to go through in order to be present and relevant for my clients. When it was happening, it didn't feel that way. But now, in reflection, I absolutely know that it was the self development and professional development that I did over the last two years were absolutely essential to where I am today.
[0:31:22] Denise Musselwhite:: And it was tiny little steps, like, millions of tiny little steps. And some of them were very tiny and others were big, but they all played a significant role in where I am today.
[0:31:36] Betsy Jordyn: I mean, you seem completely different than when we first met and started talking about this. There was so much like, you're so grounded and clear on this, who you want to help, how you want to help them, even your proprietary model. I just even like that little cheekiness of like, I'm not going to tell you all of it. I want to intrigue you. So you're going to come and find out more. I mean, it just is so different for you.
[0:32:02] Denise Musselwhite: A lot of it has to do with the confidence that I gained from going through your program. You're such an expert at this and you've helped so many clients and so many people succeed that I trusted the process. And I know you remember when I would push against some of the process and you would hold me to account and say, no, no, we've got to do it this way. I promise it's going to work out. And I did it.
[0:32:28] Denise Musselwhite: So I can see the payoff there clearly now. And the reason I can articulate this so clearly and so easily is because you helped me and because I am in my purpose. I don't have to rehearse this. This is just what I provide.
[0:33:01] Betsy Jordyn: See, now I'm going to cry. I mean, this is the essence of a purpose driven business. This is what it means to turn your purpose into profitable reality. I know it's just something I might say on my website or it's like a lot of people might throw out those words, but I think that the real secret here is having a vision for a business that's set up for scale and that is aligned to who you are and what. You want.
[0:33:28] Betsy Jordyn: And when you have those things together, your success is going to be guaranteed because you're going to be doing what you're meant to do anyway.
[0:33:39] Denise Musselwhite: Yeah. It's clear to me the time that I dedicate to it feels natural. I'm not forcing it. Every time I speak to someone, whether they work with me or not, I am better. I am better off for every single individual that I meet because I know that I can provide them a resource if I'm not the right coach for them. I have a huge network now, and I can get them for somebody who can help them. And that is incredibly important to me. Is leaving this industry better than the way that I found it? And when I found it 30 years ago, the tech industry, there was no one there that looked like me.
[0:34:25] Denise Musselwhite: And by the time I'm done with this, I hope that there will be many people who look like me and like themselves and they can show up authentically and in their power. That's what I want to help women and technology professionals do. If they feel underrepresented in their technology roles, I am their person.
[0:34:48] Betsy Jordyn: So if somebody's in that space right now and they're listening, how do they get a hold of you? How do they find you?
[0:34:54] Denise Musselwhite: Okay, so my website is my name Denisemusclewhite.com, or you can go to techandhrive.com. Either URL works. And for individuals listening to this podcast who subscribe to my newsletter and submit the contact form and make a note that you heard me on Betsy's Enough Already podcast, I'm going to enter you into a raffle for a free multidimensional assessment and 3 hours of coaching.
[0:35:31] Betsy JordynL 3 hours? Wow. That is so generous. Oh, my gosh. All right, you all better get there quickly so that you can get into the raffle. Oh, my gosh. That is such a generous offer. Thank you so much.
[0:35:45] Denise Musselwhite: You're welcome.
[0:35:46] Betsy Jordyn: Thank you.
[0:35:47] Denise Musselwhite: I'm excited for all the people I'm going to meet who want
[0:35:52] Betsy Jordyn: That's wonderful. I love that. I love what you're doing. I love your energy. I love just all the creativity that you're bringing into this whole thing. Is there anything that you would want to tell me about your journey from employee to entrepreneur? Anything about the mindset shifts you had to make, especially around money, or anything about finding your purpose, working with me? Anything that I just didn't ask you the right question.
[0:36:23] Denise Musselwhite: You asked such great questions. I think the one thing that I would want to share with the audience is that when you pay attention to the places where you find your strength and you feel joy, pay attention. Write them down, because they're going to build the picture for what your future looks like, and it is in your power to design it. So if you're in a role that's not tapping into your strengths or you're in a situation where you feel undervalued, pay attention to those moments where you find joy in that role and take note, because you can make a whole new one.
[0:37:20] Betsy Jordyn: Well, on that note, I love that so much. There's so many things I feel like I keep saying the word like, I love that so much. I love that so much. If you are a tech person and you are ready to thrive in your career, in your life, definitely check out Denise's website and take her up on that incredibly generous offer. If you are looking to become more of the CEO of your own purpose driven business, definitely look me up. I'm at www.betsyjordanwithowy.com,
[0:37:49] Betsy Jordyn: and you can check out my services there. Join in on the brand messaging program that Denise referenced, or I have other types of resources to help you get the persuasive communication, the words, the copy, all that kind of stuff that you need to grow your business. And until next time, thanks for listening. Thank you for tuning in. If today's episode litifier on you, please rate and review Enough Already on Apple podcasts or subscribe wherever you listen.
[0:38:15] Betsy Jordyn: And if you're looking for your next step, visit me on my [email protected]. And it's Betsy Jordan with the Y, and you'll learn all about our end to end services that are custom designed to accelerate your success. Don't wait. Start today.