Betsy Jordyn (00:00.024)
Hey, do you have any fear of failure that your consulting or coaching business won't work out or something that you're doing is just gonna totally flop? Well find out how to turn your whole view of failure around on today's episode of the Consulting Matters Podcast.
Betsy Jordyn-0 (00:18.956)
And welcome to the Consulting Matters Podcast. This is the show for purpose-driven consultants and coaches who are ready to own the power of what they do and position themselves for greater impact and income. I'm your host, Betsy Jordyn, and I am both a business mentor and a brand positioning and messaging strategist. And today we're gonna talk about something that is different in terms of fear. So I've talked a lot about on the show about fears of
of visibility and being seen. I talked a lot about imposter syndrome because that's such a big deal that we consultants and coaches deal with. But today I want to get into a very specific type of fear. And that is about the fear of failure, you know, and what do we do about it? Like, you know, because it could really keep us from moving forward. You know, like there I think that there's this global fear that we might have, especially when we're just getting started, is like, my gosh, what if I start this venture and it totally flops? And then we also have like these micro fears of like, well, what do I do?
if I try this one opportunity or if I go for this niche and it doesn't work and I just fall flat on my face. Well to help us out with that, I decided to invite a Melisa Buie on the show and she is super interesting. So she caught my eye when she posted about my client Katie Anderson who I've been working with for the past four years. And it was just so wonderful and so glowing.
And I got more into what Melisa does. And so she's definitely an engineer and a problem solver in terms of the operational excellence standpoint, but she wrote a book that's who that title alone just turned my head. It's called Face Plant, which I think is awesome. And Faceplant is all about freeing yourself from failures funk. You know, the title alone just made me decide to have her on the show. And what I really am excited about with this conversation that we're going to have.
It's all about like how do you reframe your understanding of failure so that you see it not as something that, you know, you need to avoid, but you know, these ongoing opportunities for learning. So super excited for you to hear the conversation. So without further ado, welcome to the show, Melisa.
Melisa Buie (02:21.41)
Betsy, thanks for having me. I am so honored to be on the show today.
Betsy Jordyn (02:25.262)
So one of the things that just like caught my eye. So you and I have never met, but you wrote like this really nice LinkedIn post about Katie Anderson, who I've worked with for a while. And then I saw your book title, Faceplant, and I'm like, that is such a great title. So I'm like, I have to have you on the show. I'm so excited to have you here. So we really are just getting to know each other. before we get into the whole conversation about failure and how to reframe
our understanding of failure and how we create conditions where failure is not something that we're even like worried about. I'd love to talk a little bit more about your background. Like so you have like a PhD in like engineering and then you're this operational excellence leader. And so people might be wondering like, how did she become an expert in, you know, failure? But before we get into that, let's talk about your background.
Melisa Buie (03:17.632)
Okay. So I'll I'll go way back and and give you a like what motivated all of this. So I grew up on a farm and farm kids are curious by nature. So there's always something to poke at or take apart or ask about. And I probably followed my father around asking why until he ran out of answers. But that curiosity is what eventually pulled me into science.
But there's something else that was really driving me too. So we owned our farm, but money was always tight. And so my dad just kind of drilled into me that education was the way out of poverty. And my mom gave me this hunger for travel and adventure. So neither of them had done those things. And but they passed it on that wanting to meet.
So I put my head down and fought my way through school, earned a PhD, and then landed in the semiconductor industry. and at that, like all through that time, failure was never on my radar. Like it was just not an option. That was not something that was gonna happen. and it was in my first job.
where I started running experiments and I learned about this tool called design of experiments, which some people may know about this. But I started learning about really about experimentation and how to run experiments and and I just fell in love with experimentation. And I learned that in the lab, it doesn't matter whether an experiment
works or whether it blows up in your face. Either way, you're gonna learn something. And so failure in the lab, I was totally fine with. I was perfectly comfortable there. But if you fast forward into my mid-40s, I started my first business and it was a complete and utter failure. Nearly bankrupted me and I was gutted.
Melisa Buie (05:45.298)
and I remember thinking, okay, I'm not gonna do that again.
and that's when it hit me. I'd spent decades failing cheerfully in the lab, but the moment failure showed up in actual life with like real money, real consequences, with real people watching, I completely fell apart. Same person, totally different response. So that contradiction is what I wanted to understand.
In and that's what really led to me writing faceplant. So I set out to study, I set out to study failure in business, but I actually ended up with something much more personal. why we can handle failure in some spaces and then are absolutely terrified in others. And that's the gap I wanted to close.
Betsy Jordyn (06:48.568)
So there's a lot of things to unpack with what you just said there. so as a child, you grew up on a farm. more specifically, when you said I was really curious about how things worked and you kept asking for things, was it more mechanical things? Was it philosophical like how the world works? Like, or was it like tangible kind of things? Like, you know, how does this tractor work? Or was it the animals and like, well, how does how's biology work? Or
You know, was it something that related to engineering or was it like in general you just were always wondering like how everything works?
Melisa Buie (07:21.824)
I I it was in general. So I might have philosophical conversations with my dad. And, you know, really, he was a deeply religious man. And so I would ask him all kinds of questions of a spiritual nature. And also, you know, like, why is this, you know, why is this weed called a weed and and all kinds of things like that. So
growing cycles and why he would plant with certain soil and why he would do crop rotation, all kinds of things.
Betsy Jordyn (08:01.922)
So underneath your engineering engineering degree in talents is a seeker. You're a you're fundamentally a seeker. Like you wanna understand truth in all forms, like whatever that looks like. Like what's true in this situation? What's true in that situation? So it seems like in your early part of your career, like the discovery of truth, which is, you know, the discovery of things that aren't true, you know, or doesn't work, that was fine. What was different?
when you got into the workplace, like compared to what was the difference between the work environment and that type of thing and the lab? Like what was what did you ex what was the shift? What made it different? A different kind of l learning experience.
Melisa Buie (08:43.839)
think the biggest thing for me was that I I think there were a couple things going on. So one is I took it personally, right? Like, okay, this is, you know, I'm the one who's supposed to be successful and not mess up. Right. So when I'm working in the lab, I know I'm gonna build a model out of whatever data shows up. And it's gonna be
Something that tells us which direction we go. So no matter what happens, I'm gonna learn. I didn't have that same tool set or that same skill set in real life. And I think it may be related to well, chances are it's related to having a like a fixed mindset in real life as opposed to a growth mindset when it came to.
like science and discovery and learning in the in the lab or in the classroom.
Betsy Jordyn (09:46.882)
Well and also like the risk factors are different too. Like what in I think that there's a difference, like if I'm in the lab, like, well, that that experiment failed, but I didn't fail. You know, when you put something out there in the world, like, well, it's not that this experiment failed, it's that I failed. Like it's like it becomes an identity thing, like, my God, am I a failure? Like, I think that's what a lot of a lot of consultants and coaches feel is like it's not a not a fear of like, I I go down this and I make a mistake, but it's like, well, what if I fail?
And now am I going to be a failure? You know, because I've already gotten to this point somewhere in my career that I've even been making this change and I got a lot riding on it. And what if I fail rather than this fail?
Melisa Buie (10:28.758)
Right, right. We oftentimes will collapse the outcome with our identity. And when that happens, there's a lot of really negative stuff that happens as a result of that. And it can really drag us down into an abyss.
Betsy Jordyn (10:48.59)
So when you were trying to answer the question, like did you have like one overarching question that was driving your research project? Was it like about like what's the difference between the lab and this environment, or did you have something more sp more specific to a research project or was it more like, I just wanna see what evolves as you were doing research for the book?
Melisa Buie (11:08.266)
It started out as really what's the difference between the lab and life. That's that was my that was my motivation. And as it as it evolved, it became something completely different. And then it then it took on a much more personal nature and it it became what it became.
often think of like we start a project and it's or we start something creating something and it just takes on a life of its own. So I that's what that's definitely what happened with this book.
Betsy Jordyn (11:51.704)
So what was your research methodology? Just out of curiosity. Like I know that people are listening, it's like, why are you asking this? I'm like, I don't know, it's my show, I get to geek out on this. So I'm curious, you know, like how did you was it more qualitative research? Was it more literature review? Like, what was your research process to come to identify your conclusions?
Melisa Buie (12:14.264)
So I started out by reading, I had this fundamental question that and I did a lot of exploration and reflection in my of my own self and my own experiences. So that was kind of what kicked it off. And then I read everything I could get my hands on about learning, about growth, about failure, about it.
It didn't matter. Anything that even sounded comp like remotely relevant, I read it. And like if you look at my good reads over the period of time I was reading this, you'd see like over a hundred books each year that I was just I was just like absorbing. And then once those once those I was through that process, then it was like, okay.
Let me start trying to put together what I know about all of this and what I've learned. And that was how it that's how it started. And then when I got asked my co-authors to come and join me in this, in this process, it was, it took on a completely different spin. They're like, okay, let's go.
And look at ourselves first. And so we started doing some really hard work on ourselves. We looked at our own failures. And I'll say one thing that really inspired me throughout all of this is Katie Anderson's book, Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. Because reading that book.
And seeing what Mr. Yoshino did with himself and his career completely inspired all three of us to look at our own lives. That was such a valuable resource for the three of us when we started down this process. We have a completely different book than Katie does, but it was so valuable in helping us.
Melisa Buie (14:39.57)
open up and really be honest about our own the situations in our own life and it got very very personal very quick we learned a lot about one another and it was then it was after we'd gone through this process and over and over and over with one another
that we started working with other people and seeing the same things show up for them as well.
Betsy Jordyn (15:16.438)
It seems like there's a s close connection between your attitude towards learning and your attitude towards failure. Like if you're talking about like that's what I got out of working with with Katie and some of the stuff with Mr. Yoshina, like I was new to the lean field and operational excellence. Like I didn't really know anything about it. I come from an OD background and all of sudden, like I'm reading these testimonials of people going to Japan and like I'm like crying. I'm like, they're so emotional.
And it's like I think that the emotionality around it, and I think that what is so different about Lean, and why I hate the branding of Lean because it does not really reflect this, is this like whole different kind of attitude, like that paint story, you know, that about Mr. Yoshino's young, you know, young career where he made a mistake, but everybody looked at it as a learning opportunity. And it's like that there is such grace in that. Like it's so it it's such a graceful story.
Because it's the learning that matters. And that's like and and I feel like that's what you're you know, she's bringing it from, you know, this learning component and you're bringing it from the failure component, but it seems like it's two sides of the same coin.
Melisa Buie (16:21.302)
It it really does. And I the way I look at it now, it after after all this research is that I really see struggle and failure as a means to learning and growth. So if I'm struggling, if I'm failing, then I am learning. And so I've been able to flip the I flip the script.
to use to use that phrase, I've been able to flip that and for myself and really and really open up my willingness to fail.
Betsy Jordyn (17:07.18)
Are you talking like willingness to fail like in the micro moments? Or are you saying like I'm willing to take a big swing and the whole thing might be a total faceplant? Like is it both? Or is it like is it because I think that some people might be listening and saying, I'm willing to fail. Like I'll put a social post out and it c if it's a bus, it's fine. Like I'll put out a program. If nobody signs up, it's a bus. But to make a big commitment to go on this business path or
Or something on a very personal level, like a big failure, like, Well, what if I get divorced? Or, you know, like those bigger failures. So are we talking about is it the same? Is this degrees of? Like how d how do you look at this?
Melisa Buie (17:45.774)
So I think you've you've hit on a really good point, which is, you know, with with failure, it doesn't have to be an all or nothing type situation. It could really be we could do micro experiments and and still accomplish the same thing. So we can still do micro experiments to get to a place where we're
learning and launching our business, it it it's not a it's not a one time thing. And I lost the my train of thought with your f earlier question, so I apologize about that. What was your original question?
Betsy Jordyn (18:29.902)
I think it's like differentiating. Like when I think about when I think about like fears of failure, like there's the micro failures that we might have around like I'm gonna put like this program out there and that's a bust, you know, like it's that's okay. Versus I'm gonna put all my eggs in this basket and it's gonna be a huge failure, like the whole entered entity will fail, or I'll get divorced or something like bigger. Like is it the is the are the lessons the same for both of them?
Like, you know, like just it's like the opportunities for learning and growth. I is it for both? Or is there nuances between this is an experiment, I tried this and it failed and I get to have continuous learning versus like the fear of like the big time failures and I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna make a big life changing mistakes. Cause on these little micro micro ones, you can fix you know, like even if you spend money on something, you can get more money. Can't really get time back, you know, or
You can't really, you know, save a relationship that like totally flopped. You know, that, you know, like some things are out of your control. Like is there a is is the f is the principle the same between both or is there a nuance?
Melisa Buie (19:37.728)
I think that one of the things that I've learned is that I I don't do the I don't I don't approach life as a kind of one big giant pass or fail test anymore. Like the I I'm that's that's not on my that's not on my radar now. I treat whether it's
whether it's a business launch or whether it's a small thing that I'm trying one day, I still I treat those the same. Like there's some bounded experiment that that I'm doing. And when I talk to people it's it's really about running these small experiments, right? Like maybe
If you've got somebody that who's looking at launching a business and maybe one thing they could do is keep their job, but take on one client to test, test one offer, see what happens. In the book, we talk about limiting the blast zone. So trying small experiments so that you can fail in small ways, learn quickly.
without having catastrophic consequences. So you don't have to bet the farm. You can test a small assumption at a time and every experiment, whether it works or not, gives you data that you didn't have before.
Betsy Jordyn (21:20.256)
I agree. I feel like there's this overall global thing though is like when you're committed to a particular outcome, let's just say for sake of argument, like you wanted to write a book. So you have commitment to a book. And so like there's lots of things along the way. Like you don't know if it's you it's like you want it to be successful, you want it to sell, you know, but whatever it takes along the way, you're gonna stay committed down this path. Like when you're like when I think about like starting a business.
You know, as long as you have a continuous mindset, improvement mindset, you know, your business your business will be successful because you put stuff out there in the market, see how's it respond, you tweak and adjust. And I think that there's like that kind of mindset, even you know, while you're trying out these experiments. Cause sometimes those experiments, like the conditions aren't the same as if you were going in full time. But I think it is like that attitude of of either one, like, I want to go down this direction. It feels right for me, and I'm gonna keep doing what it takes to make it work, and I will look at
the mi micro failures along the way as really good insight. I don't know if that made sense.
Melisa Buie (22:21.782)
Yeah, and you know, I think one thing that the one of the things that we have developed in the book is something called the free framework. So I I so I think it's a really valuable tool, whether you've failed already or whether you're afraid of failing, if you use this framework.
Betsy Jordyn (22:36.046)
Yeah, I wanted to.
Melisa Buie (22:52.36)
it's it can be really really valuable and so free which i've now i've now i've mentioned it is it stands for focus reflect explore engage and focus is like okay something happens and you know let's say you pitched a big engagement and they went with somebody else or your brain immediately
start spinning like, okay, I'm not good enough, or I should never have let corporate, or, you know, the whole thing was a mistake. But what we want to do is focus on like grabbing the steering wheel back and in and stop and say, okay, what actually happened? What happened is one prospect said no. That's all.
That's all that happened. That's the fact. Everything else is our story that our fear is writing, that our fear is making up. And so the first step is really to separate those two. So before we can build anything useful. And then the next step is reflect. So when something happens.
And w it's a threat or a failure or something that that even the possibility of a failure, we go into autopilot mode. And it's really important to like spend time exploring what that what that autopilot is doing, what it's what it's telling us. And it's only by looking at the patterns of our
Of our responses to failure and reflecting on those, that we can start identifying them. And then we can start, it gives us options in the future. Engage is about or explore. That's the next step, is really about getting curious instead of catastrophic. So, so you don't want to, what did I learn from this? You want to look at, okay.
Melisa Buie (25:14.688)
I've I can separate the facts from the story that I'm making about it. I've really looked at myself, I've looked at what's going on, and now I want to start looking at what I might learn from this. So maybe the pitch wasn't for the right client, or maybe the positioning was off, or maybe it was just a timing thing. But you start asking better questions instead of spiraling.
And when you get curious, you can look at what's possible now. And you know, not from a place of panic, because when your limbic system is engaged and your amygdala is completely hijacked, your prefrontal cortex can't engage. So it's only by getting your limbic system calmed down and your prefrontal cortex engaged.
That you can express and enjoy genuine curiosity. And then engage is taking one small step, one deliberate experiment, not a giant overcorrection or a giant over response to something. So, okay, we're not gonna change our brand overnight. but do one small bounded experiment. Maybe you rework your pitch.
Betsy Jordyn (26:40.374)
So it's the F is focus, reflect, reflect, engage, explore, explore and experiment. engage, engage. Engage is the experiment.
Melisa Buie (26:46.094)
Reflecting.
Melisa Buie (26:51.532)
And then engage.
Melisa Buie (26:56.928)
Engages the experiment. That's where you're doing one small thing. And
Betsy Jordyn (27:02.722)
Focus, reflect, experiment, engage. Explore and engage. I don't know why I keep putting experiment. Maybe it's too many E's. Maybe it's I Let's just add three. We'll add another E to it. You know
Melisa Buie (27:06.606)
And then we're
Melisa Buie (27:12.31)
want to experiment there too.
Melisa Buie (27:19.342)
But engage where we're doing the experiment.
Betsy Jordyn (27:23.818)
Okay. So what I what I heard you say many times in this explanation is a story we make up around failure. And I wonder if that is the difference between the lab and life is that in the lab you don't have any stories that you're making up about failure, but in life we make up stories about failure. So the freeing yourself is is to take on the story that we're making up about it so that we could actually observe the experiment of whatever actually is. And that's how we're going to be able to learn from it.
And it's almost like we need to have that same curiosity without the story in life in order for the life failures or what is perceived life failures to actually, you know, do the the teaching that it's meant to do.
Melisa Buie (28:10.506)
Mm-hmm. Well, and part of the reason that's that's difficult, and this was this was a revelation to me. so part of the reason that's difficult is that there's so many emotions that are associated with failure. There, you know, blame, shame, anxiety, all kinds of things. And they don't feel good. And that's why the that's the funk of failure that we talk about. And when
we're feeling those emotions that makes it a little more difficult for us to start thinking about what's possible in in our lives. And if if we took those things personally in the lab, it would be the same thing, right? Like, I'm a complete failure because I, you know, ran this experiment. But because in the lab,
I knew I was building a model which would completely describe the process space. Like I it didn't matter really that some of the experiments would fail. Even 90% of them could fail, but I'd still have a model. And I didn't have that same that same framework in life. And now I keep a I keep an experimental journal.
So, okay, I'm gonna try this. Well, that didn't work. All right, let me try this. Okay, well, that didn't work. And but I go through the free cycle, this free framework with each experiment. And I'm looking at like I'm disassociating the or detaching the emotions from it. And yeah, it still stings, like, I didn't get that one right. Okay, well, let me try again.
But it's it's never not gonna sting because we care.
Betsy Jordyn (30:15.126)
I wish I would have had your free model a long time ago. So when I'm thinking about like my biggest face plant is when I was actually pivoting my business from consulting to what I'm doing now. So I was an organizational consultant and so I had a Disney background and I did a lot of internal consulting and I started my consulting business and it was sort of like gone to my head because I got divorced and I had to get like a a business going and you know, five years in I was making money, but it wasn't the right one. And I knew I wanted a pivot, but I didn't know how.
You know, like I did know how to let go of all of this consulting background. I kind of knew I wanted to work with individuals and I always had this passion for branding and and messaging and positioning and all the stuff I do now, but I didn't really have words for it. I didn't trust it. And so I had this in-between period where I was trying to make something and anything work. So I'm like, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna like create a course where I'm gonna monetize my my OD best practices and try to sell that. And I'll never forget I went up to
to Ohio where my web guy was who was helping me with it and he was like so what's your passion? I'm like, I don't know. I just want this thing to sell. And he's like, but yeah, but what's your passion behind? I'm like, I don't know. I just want passive revenue. I just want us to have these, I just want this to sell. And he's like, well, we all have our failures. And I'm like, that's like an interesting pep talk as I'm getting ready to do two days worth of videos. You know, but he was right. The, you know, it it it failed, but then it didn't fail.
Like I spent it way too much money. Like I spent way, way, way too much money. Cost me a lot. And it really kind of forced me to this like reckoning because I was trying to sell these things while I was keeping my consulting business going. I was confusing the market. And, you know, because it kind of got my results to where it was, it kind of feeled that didn't, because that's when I started really listening to the market. So I kind of think I did and did do the free model because I didn't have a choice.
You know, I had to focus and say, okay, what's not working here? And I had to reflect on, you know, why am I straddling the fence here? Cause it's like I wanted to move in this direction, but you know, I'm like dragging this consulting identity along, you know, so I had to reflect on that one. And then I had to, you know, really like come up with like what is the different direction, but I had to listen. You know, I was listening to what the market was saying, and I'm like, good news. What the market wants is what I want to give them.
Betsy Jordyn (32:29.718)
And so then I started, I I did cut off my consulting business. I did cut off that other part. And I started to I started to really, you know, do these experiments, you know, moving into this new direction. But it was only because everything kind of went to crap that it I ever would have moved forward into what I do now that I love. And it's like my my mission, what my med to business is. I never would have got there if it wasn't that fail in the middle. And the the reality is all those training that I created, I just
You know, it didn't work in that container. So I released them all and put them on YouTube, made them free and you know, built SEO and other ways. So it all kind of served, but it never would have gotten there if it didn't go to the face plant. Like if I did not get to that part. And I wonder, like, is there sometimes where we so this is a long story. So there's up to questions in that one. Is, you know, the first one is sometimes does it require things to get to a face plant level?
Like this is like, you know, AA people would say, like, you gotta hit rock bottom. Like, is there sometimes we just have to get there and on the bigger changes that we need to do? And then I have a follow up question on that one. But is that the and it and the well actually the follow up question after that one is is curiosity, the reflection, really the key skill set in all of this? It the curiosity and the reflection. So those are my two questions. So we have to make it bad. And is curiosity and listening
the path out of whatever it might be to get to you from the failure to the learning.
Melisa Buie (34:07.744)
I think that I think there has to be some struggle and failure for us to for us to learn. And one of the things we talk about is the learning curve in in the book, which is the learning curve that we all go through when we're really learning lessons. And there is no, does it have to be as deep as, my business failed? Or like for me in my own life, the first, the first startup I joined.
completely failed within a year. And then I started my own business. And I was like, okay, I'm not gonna be, I'm not gonna be afraid. I'm gonna jump in there. And it was like I just didn't have a safety net, nothing. And it completely failed again. And so then it was like, okay, I need to take some time and really reflect on this. And so the next time I started an entrepreneurial
Business, it was I was a very, very different person. And so I think that there does we do have to learn things. Now, does it require that we go bankrupt or that we no? It you know, it may be other things that cause us that have us learn, but I think we do have to experience some things in order to really learn. And
To answer your second question, reflection. I am finding that reflection is the key to so much in life. We really learn more from reflection, like it solidifies everything for us. And if we could, if we could get to where we're doing smaller experiments, having smaller failures and reflecting and learning from that.
codifying that into really something valuable and strong and then doing the next experiment. Like what a great way to progress, progress through life. And it it's when we ignore them, let them accumulate. well, okay, that didn't work. I'm just going to ignore it. That didn't work. I'm just going to ignore it. And then they start piling up, that's when we get into a lot of trouble.
Betsy Jordyn (36:35.554)
Like it's the replacing the fight or flight with the more reflective kind of approach of saying, All right, like what are some good habits of reflection? Like if something happens, is there a certain certain tips on how to reflect? You know, or certain questions, like beyond like, what did I learn from this? Like what would what are some tips around reflection that you would have?
Melisa Buie (36:58.04)
So I for me personally, the and and I think for a lot of people, I relied heavily on James Pennebaker's work, Expressive Writing, and the tool that he uses. and some people prefer talking to other people, but for me it was really around it was around writing. And I old-fashioned pen and paper and
And sometimes it was with a prompt, like a focused question, like, you know, what did I do wrong? Or and and other times it was just like I just needed to sit there and write whatever was coming up and not judge it, not grade it, not worry about punctuation or spelling, just write. And it was through it was through these exercises that I really that I really learned. And
Frankly, if you look at his the work that the research that Pennebaker did, over and over you see that with expressive writing, people are recover from failures, from setbacks so much faster. And they get to the other side where they're in a much better place a lot faster.
Betsy Jordyn (38:21.984)
Is that the same thing as journaling or automatic writing or like what Julia Cameron does of like the writing pages? Like are all they the same or is there something specific about what he's saying in terms of expressive writing?
Melisa Buie (38:36.374)
I and I don't I don't know the details of the other people's work that you've mentioned. So it's hard for me to compare. But with his writing, one of the things that he talks about is, you know, just express what you're express what you're feeling, express what's real for you right now, get it out onto paper.
Betsy Jordyn (39:00.652)
Yeah. I'm a huge journaler and I feel like that that's the way I can access like I don't know the higher part of myself. You know, like like I don't know, like if when you get in a mode of writing, it's like sometimes it's like, Am I writing or am I receiving? Like I s like you know, it's like you if you write long enough, it's like, Am I scribing this or am I actually writing this? Like 'cause now I have like the wisdom, but it takes a little bit to kind of get into that mode and it has to and you have to have like some degree of courage, I think, to
get into that reflective space, you know, is so that because it's really like looking backwards. The word reflect is like looking backwards twice. Like you're, you know, and it it takes a lot of courage, I think, and a willingness to, you know, go within. And I think a lot of people are nervous about that. Like what tips would you have for somebody who it's like I, you know, like self, you know, like being with myself or seeing myself in that way is so challenging for me. You know, how would you what would you encourage them with?
Melisa Buie (39:58.432)
It it really is. And so one of the research studies that I read was that we would rather s receive electric shock than reflect. It is a it is like I I I was surprised and at the same time I was like, yeah, well, I've got this big thing going on and when I sit down, what I do is I create my to-do list rather than reflective writing or
You know, like I I would do anything to avoid reflecting on that particular thing that I was dealing with. And so yeah, it's it's not a comfortable thing, but I think we have to get in the practice of it. And the more we do it, the the easier it becomes, and the more second nature it becomes.
And and when it when we wait and it and it's some big thing that's going on, then it is harder to jump into reflection.
Betsy Jordyn (41:10.902)
It feels like when you're talking about reflection in this way, like the image that I have in my mind is like something external outside of me. Like it failed, it feels out of control. But when I reflect, I take my power within. Like it just like I'm visualizing like this feels like crazy. And I'm taking this power and putting this like spotlight within and it's within. And now I have the power to move forward in a different sort of way. Like you become empowered through this practice is what I'm visualizing as you're talking. I don't know if that feels absolutely
Melisa Buie (41:38.324)
Like what you absolutely. Yeah. So you're looking at you're looking at your who you are in the process of all this stuff that's going on. And like getting to that to that real piece is so valuable and so important. yeah, I can't I
I can't express enough how valuable reflection really is i in the learning process.
Betsy Jordyn (42:13.422)
So I d I wasn't expecting us to wind up in this place, but it you're making me think about a recent challenge I'm observing in my clients. So a lot of my brand positioning work is requires a lot of reflection. Like I have my clients at the beginning, you know, really listen to their life and really kind of unpack like what's inside their like what's not working today so that they can identify what they want moving forward and, you know, tap into their passions of what's driving them. But I've noticed a trend since like AI has become
a of of a bigger thing in our lives. And my biggest worry, I think, about AI is what you're talking about here, is that when you journal, you have access to your higher self, your own power. When I feel like when you go to AI, it's like you're accessing something outside of you rather than within. And it it feels like these patterns of reflection or these habits of reflection are being threatened.
And I think that's why I have like I I just did a a couple podcasts on AI. I think that's my biggest concern about it is that we lose that thing about what it means to be human. I think that that's the essence of being human is this ability. And I'm worried about it. I don't know if you're worried about it, but I'm seeing this as a major challenge. Like I'm seeing my clients having less tolerance for that inner work than even a year ago than
then I like I've noticed that there's less tolerance. I don't know if I'm just observing it, it's just or it's just this latest, you know, I'm just experiencing that. Are you seeing that as an is that a concern that you might have as well?
Melisa Buie (43:46.462)
I yes, so I I have been seeing a lot more disconnection between our humanity and our and and embracing AI a lot more. And I I I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn. And one of the things that is really important for me is to bring that humanity back to.
LinkedIn. And so I the stories I write about, the the things I talk about, they're very, very human-oriented, very leadership heavy. And it focuses on the human side of things and how we develop as humans. And rather than on the, you know, learning more about AI. So I don't have AI tutorials. I have
things that talk about leadership. And I think I'm seeing that a lot where people are letting AI take over. And unfortunately you can see it when that happens. And it it's sad because it really disconnects us from who we are and who we are with one another.
Betsy Jordyn (45:11.244)
You know, and the superpower that you just mentioned around like really the the failure resist resistance technique or the re or the failure resilience technique is this reflection. Cause that's like it seems like that's the key element in the free model is focus and reflect. Like that's the k linchpin. And if you can't do that, then like so then we're gonna miss out on this skill set that is really transformational in so many ways. Not just like re getting resilience from failure, but
Just this other thing about like being more empowered as a human, you know, having higher wisdom, you know, having access to your prefrontal cortex and not letting the stories that you might make up about things take over. It all comes from this superpower. And it's like we can't cut ourselves off from this this thing that we could have. But I think it does take courage. Like what what did you say? People would rather get shocked. Like like what did what did you say that they Yes. They would rather get people
Melisa Buie (46:04.28)
Would rather have electric shock than reflect, than spend time in reflection.
Betsy Jordyn (46:12.664)
It's crazy. Or I mean it's not crazy. You can kinda make sense.
Melisa Buie (46:17.198)
It does make sense when you think about it, but it's like, well, really? Yeah.
Betsy Jordyn (46:25.614)
So it's like it's really a courageous act then is to say, I if I'm gonna reframe my understanding of failure and I'm gonna reframe my whole understanding of seeing life as a lab and I'm going to apply this free model, is it's really this act of courageous rebellion around like I'm gonna take on these crazy stories that my brain and the society wants to make up about what my choices are, is if I take a big swing and it didn't work.
Instead of it, the society in our brain might say, I'm a failure rather than I'm a risk taker. You know, like I'm a I'm a big swing taker. Like that, like that's a much more empowering belief than than it is like I'm a failure. You know, so it seems like that's the big thing is like we gotta use this pattern of reflection to fight off this bad narrative that's gonna keep us from moving forward.
Melisa Buie (47:17.186)
Definitely, definitely. And you know, I think one thing that's the other thing that's really important in all of this is find your people who are who have this same belief. And so they take chances. They're willing to learn and grow. And so if we surround ourselves with people who who aren't taking chances, they're very safe, you know, like, okay, I'm not gonna
I'm not going to do anything that takes a chance. I'm not doing any risk taking. Then that's where we're going to be. And we're going to seem to be the most dangerous person in our social network. But if we surround ourselves with people who are learning and growing, experimenting and taking chances and spending time and reflection, those are the people that are going to help us grow and encourage us to grow.
And we won't seem like the outlier in that in that network. So I think it's really important to have people in your corner and people who will support you in this, not the you know, not
Not people who are going to be just yes, yes, yes for everything you do, but really challenge you and help you grow and develop.
Betsy Jordyn (48:42.254)
But what I love about how you talked about with your book and your approach to writing your book is it doesn't sound like you did it from I want to have these ego reasons where I have to like my ego's attached to the success of my book. I mean, what I heard from the beginning is the same child on the farm is like, I'm just curious. I want to figure out how this works. So the question drove you, you know, and so the question is what you and then the answer to your question is what you want to put forth. That will never fail.
Like it's like I think that there's sometimes where we put goals out there that do have the past fail. Like you said, life is no longer past fail. But I think sometimes we put goals out there that is the past fail because it's like it's an ego driven type of thing rather than like like how's your book's never gonna fail? Because first off, you were the first reader, you know, like so you and your partners and the co writers, like it was satisfying enough for you, like to get an answer. So for sure, good there's good, better, and best, like worst case scenario.
Like that's gonna work. You know, next level is like, well, the handful of people around you and maybe it will become a best bestseller. But I'm not sensing that you're putting your sense of what the book's success is, is it's gotta be a bestseller and it's gotta make X number of dollars. Like it's right sizing also the goal and letting I think that that is also part of the the failure resistance is why are you doing it? What's the purpose?
Melisa Buie (50:06.22)
Yeah, so I I will tell you that my experiment with with writing, because this is my, you know, if you count my master's thesis and PhD thesis, like this is the fifth book I've written. And my goal with each thing that I write is to have a few more people read it. A few more people. And that's successful. So if I can reach more people, and I think
Now, am I committed to this being as successful as possible and reaching as many people as possible? Absolutely. This is, I think, free, the free model and the free framework. And this book, FacePlant, has the potential to really change people's lives. So I'm really passionate about being visible and staying out in front and talking about this message.
And that's really hard for me as an introvert, but I'm committed to doing it because I think it could make lot people's lives different and really have a positive effect.
Betsy Jordyn (51:15.052)
And I feel like that that goal will definitely be achieved. Like that's you know, like it's a thousand percent. Like I think that's the intention. I think sometimes it's like it's the intention versus like an external goal. Like the goal is I wanna have this message out there because I wanna have people's lives change. And so it's already gonna be a success, you know, and it's gonna continue. I think sometimes like people like, I wanna write a book because I I wanna elevate
you know, this and I don't know what the book should be about. I don't really care. You know, as long as it just elevates my positioning. It's like, well, then you're put in the past fail rather than like passion is leading me or service to the world. And it's like, yeah, I want to help more people. Like why like why would we do our work if like why would we do what we do if it wasn't to help people? You know, and so helping more people is better than helping less people because if you really believe in what you're doing. But I think that there's a difference. Like you're always gonna be successful if you put
You know, it's it it takes out the past fail equation from life is passions leading, you know, and then the results will follow rather than letting the results be the outcome. You know, and it seems like also it's just the opportunity to like be around other people. Like what I loved about so I I've been working with Katie on her book. And what I love about what she does is she's all off there of the book idea in process.
You know, like she's sharing the book idea as it's evolving. So we're working on our next book. And like the book idea is evolving. And so she'll put the idea out there. She's not being precious about it. It's not like I have to have this. It's like I just want to get the a good idea. And I think that's also must be part of the experimentation. I think we should put another E in this. I feel like the free model needs an experiment in its own E. I if I
If I if I if I humbly could submit to you and your co-writers, can we make it be free and just an experiment?
Melisa Buie (53:02.542)
Well, I think that I think there was there was a little bit of reluctance on the the E being experiment because we had one person who wasn't a scientist in this and she was like, okay, well let's let's hold off on that. So the engages it captures it. So yeah. I think that what I love about what Katie's doing and
reaching out to in her new book is reaching out to people and and really having all of us involved in the process of of writing this. And and she's taking all of our learnings and all of our experiences and really putting those together in this book. I think that's a really valuable way to to do this. And we did something similar with a failure survey and really getting
Collecting failure stories. We ended up using our own failure stories primarily because we we wanted to keep it a very personal, personal work. But yeah, I think what Katie's doing is is really valuable collecting the reflections of everybody in the community.
Betsy Jordyn (54:28.524)
And I think that that's where you like have the balance of like, okay, I'm gonna synthesize all of I'm gonna synthesize all of this, put an idea forward. But I think what I love about like even as you were talking about yours, it's the it's the question, answering the question and and putting forth an idea that will make a difference for other people, you know, is is the driver. And so like in terms of like the things that we talked about today, it's like there's a lot of stuff about, you know, like just the the
the ongoing curiosity that you had from the time that you were very young to what led you to this part particular research project is like how do you take the lab to life and what's the difference between the two. Seems like the big issue of what be is between the two is this whole idea around like the story that we make up around failure when it comes to the personal side in the life versus the lab. And we have to like
get rid of the story so we can go back to the lab. That's where the free model comes in. The superpower is the reflection out of the whole, like the the the whole model is like it really begins with reflection and turning it into like, I what can I learn from this? Like that's that's what we want to do. And if we could do that, then it's like it's like our curiosity in life being a learning journey. You know, like really like re reframing our a whole time here on earth from
you know, into like we're just here on earth school, you know, and that's what we're here to learn. I think creates that whole it's I feel like that might be the deeper meaning. Maybe, maybe when you're on the farm talking to your dad about his religious, you know, perspective, maybe it was like life's just a big learning lesson. I don't know. But it seems like that that's the the through line is is if it's if I could learn from it, I can grow from it, you know, and and the way I'm gonna grow from it is to reflect on it.
And take on that story that would make me not want to that take on that story of like from it failed to I'm a failure. Right. And if that sounded correct. In terms of a summary.
Melisa Buie (56:26.935)
Right.
Melisa Buie (56:30.848)
Yeah, I I think you're bringing up a really good point is that when when we're dealing with failure, it's actually a skill. So it's not a personality trait that we're born with. It's it's a skill that we can develop. And it we just we can learn it, we can practice it, and we can get better at it. And I think that's what the free framework allows us to do.
It gives us a framework to practice and then we can we can learn from that. And the more we practice it, the more we engage, experiment, the easier it gets. Yeah.
Betsy Jordyn (57:18.772)
Awesome. I would love to I have I have a million other questions, but I know we gotta be sensitive to time. can you share where can people buy your book? Where can people connect with you? give us all those deets.
Melisa Buie (57:31.19)
Okay. So I am so first of all, FacePlant is available at all the major booksellers, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Bookshop.org, all of those. And and I am available on LinkedIn. You can find me there. I'm love engaging with people and talking to you and learning more.
So and my website has additional resources that are also available, Melisabuoy.com. And
Betsy Jordyn (58:06.338)
B U I E, correct? And it's one one L, not two L's.
Melisa Buie (58:09.464)
So it's
Yes, and one S. So E L I S A B U I E dot com. Yes. Yeah.
Betsy Jordyn (58:24.472)
So is there anything else that you want to tell me about face planned or about reframing failure and I'm just not asking you the right questions?
Melisa Buie (58:35.48)
I think that I think the big point that we just talked about, which was the fact that failure is a skill. So learning from failure is a skill that we can develop is a really valuable tool for people or a really a valuable walk away from today's discussion. And that I hope that's what people learn from.
faceplant as well is that it's it's something that we can learn. And there's there's so much more in the book. I wish we had time to cover it all, but yeah, that's a that's a big one.
Betsy Jordyn (59:20.782)
'Cause it does go along with vulnerability. And one of the best definitions I heard about vulnerability is the end of it has ability in it, which means that there's a skill set, you know, like it's a skill set that you can learn. And it's something that you could get better over time. Like even if like patterns of reflection and having habits of reflection, like you could learn to do that. You mentioned a book that people can get to learn develop those habits. And yes, it might feel scary like getting electrical shock treatment and all.
You know, but you know, what's the alternative? You know, living a small life and never to really taking a risk. Like it seems like that there's a lot of good opportunities there. Well, thank you so, so, so much for being on today's episode. I learned a lot. I'm really excited to implement free, you know, more in my regular life. I'm adding the experiment one because I like that one.
As as well as engage. you know, like I like engage too, but I like experiment because it makes it feel like going back to the lab, you know. Like I like the idea of applying the lab mindset to things that you're doing. I think it depersonalizes it in a lot of ways. So I love it. That is that was super helpful. for all of you are listening, definitely check out Melisa's book and her website.
Lots of great stuff. There's so much here. I'm so excited to be to have this conversation. So thank you all so much for being on the show. If you or not being on the show, you're not all on the show. If you guys want to be on the show, you can be on the show. But anyway, if you enjoyed the show, please rate and review it so more people can find it. And subscribe as of course, as always, so you don't miss future episodes. And until next time, thanks so much for listening. And thank you, Melisa, for being here.
Melisa Buie (01:01:00.962)
Thank you.
