Betsy Jordyn (00:00.078)
What is the most powerful thing you could do for your clients isn't to consult with them or coach them, but to mentor them? Find out why on today's episode of the Consulting Matters podcast.
Betsy Jordyn (00:15.19)
And welcome to the Consulting Matters podcast. This is the show for transformational consultants and coaches who are ready to own the power of their partnership and position themselves for greater impact and income. I'm your host, Betsy Jordyn. And perhaps you noticed that there was a little bit of a shift to my show Promise, and that was intentional. It is all because of this amazing conversation that I had with Joe Pine on my last episode. So he's the author of The Transformation Economy.
And he really opened my eyes to really what I do and why. I definitely want to help consultants and coaches who are purpose driven, who are really in it for reasons beyond the money. But really, that's not the whole deal. I'm really all about helping transformational consultants and coaches, the ones who want to guide their clients to achieve their aspirations and become the person, the leader, the business owner, whoever it is that they are striving to become.
and to be that one who comes alongside those clients who are in the middle of this heroic journey of transformation. So if the client is the hero, then who are we? I'll tell you who we are. We are the mentors. And that's exactly what today's episode is all about. So I was thinking a lot about this episode that I had with Joe Pine when I was at this OD networking event. And then I heard other people at the event talking about this guy, Yogi Mueller, and his book, The Great Slapping, which
By the way, what a great title. I knew I had to have him on the show from that standpoint, but also because he is an expert in mentoring. So I hope you tune in to really understand and appreciate this mentor role that we could have with our clients, how we could ignite more mentorships in our organizations that we are supporting. And of course, if we are looking for mentors, what we should be looking for. So without further ado, welcome to the show, Yogi.
Yogi Mueller (02:05.138)
This has been a goal since the first moment I saw you had a podcast so when I got the call I am humbled and excited to be on your red carpet today
Betsy Jordyn (02:15.352)
So what's so fun though is you and I have like lots of crossovers. So I definitely want to get into your background and I want to get into your business and how you got into mentoring and how you became an expert in that area. And I want to know all of that, but just selfishly, I want to get clarity on where did we overlap? Because I saw as we were getting, I was getting ready for this episode, I think we overlapped when I was at Disney. And then I also did work at Wyndham and I think you were at Wyndham when I did my work at Wyndham. Is that accurate?
Yogi Mueller (02:44.172)
Yeah, just I think barely there. I was at Disney from about 1998 to about 2007. So we were right in that world. I started as a frontline merchandise host. I had to earn my ears, as they said. Then spent two years in human resources at Downtown Disney at that time. And then went into Mac team operations at Epcot for five years.
Then moved into the training sphere during the WorkBrain project. I was on the training team, which was great, because they took us back and forth to Disneyland. And then I ended my 10 years there as a manager of the Youth Education Series program, where we used the theme park as classrooms for middle schoolers or middle schoolers. So was, I think in 10 years, I worked nine different jobs, it seemed like. But I think our fast- Because I spent a lot of time at DU.
I spent a lot of time at the Disney University working with those individuals. we know we've shared space in a conference room somewhere in those 10 years.
Betsy Jordyn (03:51.424)
And I'm gonna find that out. I wanna go look it up on my computer to see if like your name is somewhere. It's so weird. It's like Disney's so big. Like we literally were there at the same time, but in very different orbits. Like I wasn't at the D, I wasn't at the DU at the Disney University. I was in team Disney, you know, feature animation.
Yogi Mueller (04:10.602)
Wasn't Chris running the OD team at that time?
Betsy Jordyn (04:14.206)
yeah, Chris King is amazing. Yeah, like I owe my career to Chris King. And at some point I absolutely have to have him on the show because of what I'd learned from him. But then you and I crossed over, so you were at Disney and then I think you went to like Blue Green and then Wyndham. So it seems like you stayed in the theme park hospitality world, world was inaccurate.
Yogi Mueller (04:32.686)
took a hiatus to launch, help launch a master's program at Full Sail University for three years. And I missed hospitality. I absolutely missed being in an industry that served others outside of the education world. So I had an opportunity to join Wyndham at that time in their learning and development department, be a teacher and an educator and developer, but yet have my foot back in hospitality. And about two and a half years later, I was stolen by Blue Green.
until as I say Hilton freed me up to pursue my entrepreneurial dreams with a recent acquisition.
Betsy Jordyn (05:07.246)
Well, that was going to be my next question is about what got you to business ownership and I love that you said it tongue-in-cheek because there's a lot of people who feel like my gosh I got here because I feel bad I got laid off I feel like nine times out of ten People wind up on this path because something happened to them that like it was like like a layoff or something like that where they're like No, I want to have control over my career. I'm not gonna go back and be at the mercy of an organization
So tell us a little bit more about that. So you went from Disney to launching a program at Full Sail, then you went to Windom, then Blue Green.
Yogi Mueller (05:47.502)
13 years, you know, Hilton, yes. say, well, Orlando is the biggest, smallest town you'll ever work in. Hospitality is even smaller than that. And the timeshare world is even smaller than that. Right. So this wasn't a surprise because I knew all the players over there. I knew the org structure and they didn't have room for a VP. It just wasn't in the mix.
And so it wasn't like it was like, by the way, can you stop by HR at four o'clock on a Friday afternoon? Surprise. It was, it was pretty telegraphed for a while. And, and I didn't get my notice until six months after the takeover happened. So literally the story I left to tell is, is I had my office packed, ready to go on day one and the call didn't come for six months. You know, so there's reasons for everything. You know, I'm a firm believer in the cosmos.
and, you know, learn, learn a great deal being there in that six month period of time. And then when I got the call, I'm like, well, I'm not going to sit on the couch and eat bonbons. So I, I, I hung up a shingle. wrote a book, you know, I tried to do things to, to, to stay valid and, and, and engaged and still learning and developing myself and that, you know, that was the process. So I was blessed, in, in the fact that it wasn't one of those shocks that I know a lot of people are dealing with right now.
My heart and soul and head goes out to them and that experience. So I eased into it a little bit. I mourned earlier than I had to. And so when it did come, was, was easier to digest.
Betsy Jordyn (07:21.166)
It feels like in today's day that everybody should be prepared, you know, in some form or fashion. Like it doesn't seem, it seems like you were the tea leaves, but I think that the world is different. Like that there isn't a world anymore where you can go to a company and for the most part, unless something weird happens, that there's not going to be layoffs. Like that seems to be, this is the way it is. Mergers and acquisitions and growth that way. Like this is life right now. So it's almost like that would be the advice.
I would draw from what you just said is always be prepared.
Yogi Mueller (07:54.286)
You know, I was young and naive really, um, for a long time. My father worked for a steel mill. He was head of the IT department there and he worked for a company for four years and a year before he retired, it got bought out and he like lost 90 % of his pension because of that. And you know, we're, we're, gen Xers, right? So we, we were brought up with loyalty to a company. We were brought up with that gold watch, you know, at, at 25 years or whatever.
Betsy Jordyn (08:12.569)
my gosh.
Yogi Mueller (08:23.084)
And now if anybody stays with the company, it's three years and they get a gold watch, right? So I think people's shift has moved on from that, but it took me a little bit. You know, at Disney, I expected to be at Disney for life. And I was on a lot of temporary assignments, we called them TAs, and you know, where you're gainfully employed for eight months, and then all of a sudden you're like, you have to look for a job again. And I had a lot of people say, you know, call me and then...
Phones never rang, so my mind was like, I'd like to know you're have a paycheck in nine months. I wouldn't trade my Disney experience for anything in the world. I learned so much, gained so many great friends and mentors and leaders. But I learned that loyalty is no longer a currency anymore in an organization. And that if I tell my students, nobody cares more about your career than you do, it was about time I started listening to my own wisdom.
and putting myself first. And that was a hard lesson because I am somebody that if I work for you, I give 150%.
Betsy Jordyn (09:28.951)
Alright.
Yogi Mueller (09:30.664)
And so there, you know, I always told people this last year and a half or so have been very cathartic. I've learned a lot about myself. I've learned a lot about my weaknesses, my opportunities, and, and gra have grown at 55. I'm still growing. And I think that's a good thing.
Betsy Jordyn (09:50.926)
And I feel like that, like in the work I do around personal branding, you know, and a lot of the stuff that I observe as an ex-OD consultant, you know, when I think about like the advice I give to my daughter, you know, who's 22 in the workplace, and it's like, you do good work because it's about your reputation. Like, you know, at this point, like there's no guarantee that you're gonna have a job forever, but the one thing that you can control is how you show up, what your reputation is, and doing great work, and you do great work because that is what like buys you options.
And so I think that that's like, if I had it all my way in terms of like how to think about like employee engagement, if you will, is it's like get everybody to come and be empowered for themselves. Like own my brand, my reputation, do good work because it will pay off for me later.
Yogi Mueller (10:37.346)
Yeah. And, when you, live in the world's biggest, smallest town, you'd never burn a bridge ever in this town because you never know who you're going to be working for or with in the future.
Betsy Jordyn (10:42.699)
now.
Betsy Jordyn (10:49.368)
So let's talk about what your business is now. So you went through, you got a little bit of push out of the nest, and then you decided to be much more intentional in terms of staying relevant, learning, and growing. What did you land on as it relates to your consulting business? Is it related to hospitality still, or is it something different?
Yogi Mueller (11:09.378)
You know, that's funny. I saw this opportunity that I was given to maybe do something other than hospitality. I'd literally spent the last three decades in various forms of hospitality. And though I do miss it and very passionate about it, I was like, okay, let me do something else. So that would have been an easy kind of connection for me, but I chose to go more in that leadership world that I had spent the last 20-something years specifically in my work.
You know, in writing the book, I wanted to do that homage to my mentors and to my mentees. And that became my temple. But I got to tell you, Betsy, and you probably know this for working with new people in the industry, just continuous moments of reinvention and understanding what's working and what's not. you go down, you open this door, it doesn't work, you find another one and open up. And so, am I, do I have a lot of messaging? Yes.
Is it all focused as best as it could be? No. I yell at people. said, I've been wanting to fire my chief marketing officer since day one of being an entrepreneur. because again, that's one of those areas that, I, you know, we talk about mentorship, we both remember the good network and I had Kevin McCarthy as a mentor. mean, you can't ask for a better person to hold your hand when you're beginning this process. And he slapped me several times.
you know, during this process. So, right now I'm, I'm, I'm at a point where I, I've been called a human potential locksmith. So I use that because of my approach. It's very personal, but it's very direct, not a lot of fluff. And, you know, I, I focus very much on unlocking you when it comes to either you as an individual or your team.
How self-aware are you? How willing are you to listen and do something with feedback? so whether that's through mentorship, whether that's through the grit index, whether that's through really having frank conversations and being very direct, that's kind of where I am right now. And whether that puts me at a conference of managers, if it puts me in a one-on-one situation over a whiskey, or on a keynote stage.
Yogi Mueller (13:30.222)
I am I'm at home in any one of those three areas.
Betsy Jordyn (13:35.892)
And the whiskey is important because that's part of your brand name is craft. You have craft. It's not craft beer. What's your business name is craft leadership. what's the relevance with the whiskey beer scenario?
Yogi Mueller (13:43.822)
Fuckcraft leaders.
Yogi Mueller (13:52.59)
That's a really good question. And that's exactly what it's based on. have a fondness for craft cocktails. The little tiki thing for a while there too. During COVID, my girls, I have two daughters, both amazing girls. One's 26, the other one is 22, graduating from college in a month. And when they were home for the longest spring break ever during COVID.
They said, you know, dad, when people come over to the house, and especially the young people, you educate them on how to not sound like an idiot when they order a drink. And that they understand what spirits are and how to order them and how to drink it and how not to look like an idiot. They said, you should do a YouTube channel. And I said, okay. So my daughters and I founded the Bar Dad YouTube channel.
for the longest time, my youngest shot it, my oldest edited it, and I think I have about 45 episodes, I think, covering everything from how to tip your bartenders to how they drank during the Civil War, George Washington's eggnog recipe, and that kind of led me into this loving the craft, the intricacy, the bespoke.
kind of approach in watching these scientists behind, you know, build these cocktails. And I'm like, you know what? When you're dealing with somebody's potential, when you're unlocking somebody's thing that's either unwilling or unable to see their true ability, sometimes you have to get in there like that scientist, like that craft cocktail thing, and you really have to be very delicate and, but direct and very specific and very individualized to the situation. So that's where the word craft leadership came in.
Betsy Jordyn (15:44.982)
I love that you are infusing so much of your personality in your business. And even in your book, so I want to move to the great slapping book, which is a funny title in itself, and it's a book about mentorship, which is like, okay. But I love, I just want to just affirm that standpoint is like you really bring you into your business.
Yogi Mueller (15:49.528)
I got all out of it.
Betsy Jordyn (16:09.87)
and you let your personality shine. And I think that really emphasizes like one of the key thing that I believe that even leads to our conversation about mentoring is, people don't really buy our methodologies. They don't buy our knowledge. They buy ourselves. Like we are the agent of change, you know, and who we are, how we show up, like we are it. We are the instrument. You know, maybe ultimately what we saw is their transformation and what the client gets on the other end. But the mechanism is not what we know. It's who we are. And I love that you're bringing you into it.
Because that's what they're getting. And they're getting what you just said, like you're no fluff, you're customization, you're love of the craft. In this world, it's like the love of the craft of leadership. so there's that love of that. And it's like bringing out the best in them. That's what they're buying. They're not buying. Maybe you have a grit framework, or maybe you have certain ideas that you represent in your book, but it's not about the ideas, it's about you. That's what I'm getting out of this conversation, or this segment of the conversation.
Yogi Mueller (17:09.562)
I really appreciate that. The best compliments I get about my book is when I read it, I hear your voice talking to me. And that, cause that was very important to me. I can't talk about authentic experiences of being a mentee or being a mentor and come across as fake, is come across as disingenuous. You know, I think there are two.
there are two people from a business perspective or two things that have really shaped who I am and what my why is right now. The first one is Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends that Influence People. If you haven't read it, shame on you. I try to introduce that to all my students. And he says, look, he says, the power of connecting with anybody comes from you being genuinely interested in that person. Because anything less than a genuine interest in...
helping this person achieve whatever they want to achieve, whether it's ego, whether it's a task, whatever it is, you come across as a used car salesman. I apologize for any of the used car salesmen out there, but you come across as disingenuous. So that was a very, that was a big compass point for me. That book changed my life. And then I came across one of my favorite quotes of all time. And I think it's attributed to Nelson Henderson.
That scene, it's happiness is planting a seed of a tree whose shade you will never enjoy. Or something to that effect. And like, wow. Yeah, that's it. That's it. That's my purpose on this rock is to try to make people better when I leave them than when I found them. And to not expect anything in return. But the knowledge that I potentially had something to do.
literally gets me up every morning. So, you know, that's my driver. That's my fuel for doing what I do.
Betsy Jordyn (19:08.75)
It sounds like a lot of what you do is you want to show up as somebody who's invested in the success of somebody else. And I think that that's a different type of thing versus like, I'm here to get a transaction. Let's do the contract. I hate when people talk about like landing consulting or coaching clients as like sales. Like I always bristle against it. I'm like, I don't do sales, I do partnerships that up.
is that because it's not a transaction, it's not like you buy these number of sessions and you buy that in exchange for this amount of money. It's my partnership and coming alongside you on your journey and I'm invested in your success. Like I'm here because I'm invested. And I think that's a different value proposition. If you are looking at, don't know where this is gonna go and I don't have any attachment to where this is gonna go, because the where we go is not my monkeys, not my circus. Like that's your deal.
but I'm going to be here to provide that support along the way.
Yogi Mueller (20:02.862)
That was something that I wrestled with personally. a fee structure around something that I would have done for free. Because that's who I am. Right? And then, you know, when, and so yes, I've read books, I've watched videos, I've listened to very intelligent people like you kind of straighten my head in this business for all the right reasons.
But that was a struggle for me because I saw myself as providing a service for the benefit of the man, benefit of man in general, mankind, and not for me. And to say, yeah, I'm gonna plant that seed, but here's my invoice. It played with my psyche for a while to get over that. And I'm assuming you've run into people just like that too, kind of get them over that hump for.
All the good reasons they have it, but it's something they need to kind of unlearn.
Betsy Jordyn (21:04.952)
Well, I'd say if you are in a zone where you do it for free, then you're in the zone of probably what you should be doing because, know, there's like, to me, there's like the should-do, ought-to business. And then there's the, I'm in the flow business. So if you hit the place where you're in flow, that's a good place to be. And then the fact that you have to like caution yourself. Like I do this all the time, even in my own pricing, because I'm like, think I've been, I think I've been like staying at a certain level for a certain period of time. And it's like, you know, and it's not really about like how much money I'm making.
I think that the whole idea around the fee is that they're investing in themselves via me. And so if I don't charge properly, then they're not really invested in the process to the way that they should be. So even if I wind up with somebody where I have an energy exchange with somebody who's helping me with something that I don't know how to do, and I'm helping them with their brand messaging and positioning. So it's like, kind of have this energy exchange, but I literally put something in the system.
in my system and said, right, so in exchange for your help with this, I'm doing this, this is the equitable value, go ahead and sign up. Because if she didn't sign up, then I don't know if she would take the homework I would give seriously, you know, or the direction. And I don't wanna be somebody who's just like giving away my time where it's not invested, you know. So for me, the getting over the pricing is...
I'm invested in your success, but I can't be more invested in your success than you're invested in your own success. And that's where the energy is. That's where the, you said that. we gotta get to the book. We've been talking for like 20 minutes and we haven't even gotten to the book yet.
Yogi Mueller (22:36.098)
Well, that's.
Yogi Mueller (22:45.048)
But just in the mentor book, Great Slapping, mentees have to bring at least 51 % minimum to the relationship. I'm not gonna chase them down. So we're applying that same concept to the consulting role. Perfect.
Betsy Jordyn (23:00.718)
So let's talk about the mentoring book. There's two parts that I have curiosity about is I love the title and I understand the gist of the title, but I want you to explain the gist of the title. But I really want to understand what got you to be interested of all topics for you to pursue for a book. What is it about mentoring that's interesting for you?
Yogi Mueller (23:22.39)
I think it's the journey, it's the arc that I have been, that I have been privileged to see in folks that I've worked with in the past, to see when they reach, when they realize that potential. I like the phrase that mentors are not satisfied with who you are today because they can see who you can be tomorrow. And then when that individual is in that moment, you're like, that's awesome.
People say, how did you get involved in L &D? said, well, I was a professional comedian for years. And somebody said, go teach this class. And the first thing I thought of was, got 40 people in a captive audience to entertain them for 40 minutes. And then I realized, my god, I can have impact. can open eyes. I can change lives, potentially. And so that's my romantic entry into the industry I'm in. it's
you know, mentorship for the onus or the impetus behind the book was gratitude. You know, I think when you're put in situations like a lot of us have been with the green banners and things like that on LinkedIn, you know, in order for me to not spiral, one of the anchors is just gratitude, to understand the blessings you do have, the gifts that you have been given.
the impact that you make. And it was originally kind of a thank you. said, I wanna talk to people that changed my life, that gave me that great slapping, that woke me up from being some stupid kid in college to where I am today. And in that, I wanted to also talk about gratitude for my mentees to allow me to give back. And that's kind of where it came from, that sense of gratitude. Yeah, there was a lot of work.
I did with gratitude after that decision was made and I was let go for lack of better term. And it's cathartic.
Betsy Jordyn (25:28.726)
I think it is cathartic to go back and look and say, what brought me to this place? Last year, I went on a sabbatical. So I went on a couple cross-country, two cross-country moves in two years, and I was like, cash, when I moved back here. And so I went on a sabbatical, like a seven month sabbatical, and during that time, I got really connected to, like, even though I do brand positioning and messaging, and I could look like I'm in the...
the marketing world, at my heart, I have 30 years experience in organization development. Like, that's my home base. And everything that I do around positioning doesn't come out of marketing. comes out of, what I learn. And I had several people. So I had Peter Block on my... So as soon as I got out of my sabbatical, I had Peter Block on the show. And then I had Jack Phillips, who kind of gave me my philosophical understanding of consulting.
But then I had Rick Bommeljay, who's a professor at Rollins, who was my first mentor. And he gave me the life-changing advice that has completely changed my trajectory. And he told me early on when I had actually an OD role in my organization, but I was not leveraged for this big change that was going on. And he told me this like little nugget. He said, nobody's ever going to use your expertise the way you want. It's up to you to position yourself for the work that you want and the role that you want.
And that is like defined everything that made me successful as a consultant. And that's everything behind what I do now and what I help my clients do. it all came from him and like he was on the show and it's like, I couldn't help but cry. It was like, I don't know what I would have been if you didn't give me that one bit of wisdom at that particular moment. know, like that was the information and it changed everything. Like I would not be a brand positioning person. Like I'm a positioning person first.
You know, and messaging. People hire me because they like my ability to put thoughts into words, but I do positioning. Why do I do positioning? Is because Rick told me that you will never ever get to the clients and the opportunities that you want if you wait for them to invite you to the table. You know, you have to make those situations. And like, that was the mentor moment. And I understand what you're talking about with gratitude, because it was really meaningful for me to come out of this long sabbatical and to honor.
Betsy Jordyn (27:40.812)
these people and that's why I'm like, I want Chris King on the show because, you know, he's another big pillar. And it is important, I think, to express gratitude to everybody who came before you and all the people who are invested in your success.
Yogi Mueller (27:54.038)
And I'm glad you had a moment to share that with them and that you will with Chris as well to let them know because, you know, if you think about those impactful moments that you've had with individuals and then I've gotten feedback that I've had this impact on others, that your interaction in your mind was just passing, but yet there was something about the connection, the truth that you shared, the awakening that you gave this other individual that literally changed their lives. And you
20 years later, I've run into people, they, did you realize you did this? No, wow. And it comes when you need it the most. So I'm glad you had that opportunity to share that with them, because they may not know how or where you are today.
Betsy Jordyn (28:38.126)
And that would be like a reflection moment for those who are listening. This could be that moment of just thinking about who is it that has contributed to where you are today? And more specifically, how did they contribute to your success or what you've gotten to? And then the follow-up is like, well, what can you do to either pay it backwards or pay it forward? So think them and then pay that information forward.
Yogi Mueller (29:03.246)
or 100%. You know, when, the moment you realize you're not where you are, that you're at, you're where you are because of the help of other people, then you're willing to give back. If you think you got to your seat without the help of other people, you're not necessarily willing to give back.
Betsy Jordyn (29:19.374)
And nobody's gotten to where we are on our own. Like that's just not even logical. But you know, we could be like, I'm a self-made person. It's like, really? I don't know. Okay. Yeah, yeah, you. Yeah, tell your mom that.
Yogi Mueller (29:30.318)
Make your mom that.
Yogi Mueller (29:36.098)
Let's see how individual you really are,
Betsy Jordyn (29:39.438)
I'd love to move the conversation from the accidental mentor to the intentional mentor. And I want to kind of share our perspective that I had about mentoring, which I think is like what sparked my attention when people were talking about your book and you that made me like, should have connected anyway. I can't believe I've been back for over a year and you and I have not connected. So that was just bad, bad. We should have connected. But what got my attention is, and I brought up my little toys here.
I've, so I've always seen the role of a consultant and coach through the lens of the heroic journey. And I think that the word mentor is part of the heroic journey because it came out of the Odyssey and the original role of the mentor. so like what struck in my head about the great slapping and connection with mentors is, so you have Simba and Simba's on his journey of transformation.
And it's like, all pay attention to the kings, the sovereigns, you know, the queens, like who are those, but we always disregard this person. You know, like this is that other role that I think is a sacred role that I think consultants and coaches can play, which is the mentor. The people who have been where they are and can show them the way, or the definition of the word mentor, which is like about mind, where they can hold out a potential for someone until they can believe it for themselves. But like, would Simba have ever gone back to take his place at Pride Rock? You'll get to play with my toys.
My daughter would be so thrilled. Would Simba ever make it up Pride Rock if Rafiki didn't balk him on the head? know, like, balk him on the head at the appropriate time. You know, it's like past hurt, you know? I'll stop playing with my toys. You guys, don't know how cute my toys are.
Yogi Mueller (31:24.066)
have all the, but brilliant, brilliant connection. I mean, honestly, when you talk about a manifestation of a physical great slapping, that scene between Simba and Rafiki is brilliant. You know, when you really break down that relationship and you hit on something that I hadn't really thought about before, but you said, you know, Simba's royalty and Simba's high up in the, in the organization, as they say.
And Rafiki is not, Rafiki is not in the Royal family, but he's trusted. And I break down the two very important aspects of mentorship is trust that I trust that your feedback to me, your slappings are coming from a place of genuine interest in building me up. And so I'm not gonna push back, I'm gonna listen. And the mentor trusts that the mentee will...
hear and heed what they have to say. Sometimes it requires a verbal or physical slapping to get them to wake up. And the other one is the willingness to be in that relationship. If nobody comes voluntarily, then it's not gonna work. And so you think of the Simba and Rafiki, there was a huge level of trust, even though it had a 15-year gap or whatever it is in between, that relationship never stopped being what it was.
And Rafiki sought him and Simba sought him out because the trust was there and they voluntarily trusted each other to give the best information. And Rafiki slapped the king.
And there were no titles, there were no positions, there were no structures in reporting. Those all went away. It was pure trust and pure investment at that moment. And so, you know, one of the things that I, if somebody asked me to coach a senior leader or a C-suite, my first question is, how self-aware are they? Because if you don't get past that, nothing's sticking, right? so-
Yogi Mueller (33:30.316)
The fact that you brought up Simba was royalty. It was the first time I really understood that. And great connection. Thank you for that, by the
Betsy Jordyn (33:38.156)
I think that you can go beyond this, even that. Because I think in our world, we're obsessed with leadership. How many books are there about leadership? And then how many books about consulting are all about build a business, build a business, but nobody's really talking about what is the role in the office of consultant and coach? And the reason why I think Rafiki could speak with power is he was not a part of the system. He was on the outside.
And I think consultants and coaches like wind up in this place like, oh, I don't have positional authority. Where's my source of authority? And it's like your source of authority is your objectivity. You're outside the system. You don't have a dog in the hunt. If you were in the executive's kind of world somewhere, even if you were an internal consultant, you won't have the authority that you're not going to be trusted. Because the reason why Rafiki's trusted is he has no dog in this hunt. He only wants what's best for the kingdom.
And so he can speak truth at an equal level, is the power is equitable. Because Rafiki's not gonna act like this direct report like Zazu couldn't be a mentor. Zazu couldn't have done what Simba needed, because he was like below him. And even when Mufasa was alive, he could speak to Simba in a different sort of way, but Rafiki can, because it can come alongside him.
And I think that we miss out, that's why I wanted to explore with you the differences between the accidental mentor, know, somebody has a great word of wisdom at the exact right point in time that makes a difference, and then the intentional mentor, the one who chooses to come alongside somebody else's journey of transformation and be there, you know, at that important moment, like the Obi-Wan to Luke, you know, Obi-Wan.
is in the same energy as Rafiki is, or Glinda is in the same energy. They're all in the same energy. And I think that this is why I call my podcast Consulting Matters is we have a sacred role. We're not just these people who just got kicked off of the corporate ladder and we decided to take our careers into our own hands. We have a role, and I think our role is the mentoring role.
Betsy Jordyn (35:45.986)
You know, this is what we do. This is the essence of what we do. When you talk about, you know, unlocking this potential, like it's like that's the essence of this intentional mentor role of coming alongside somebody on their heroic journey. All right, so I'll let you comment on all of this. Maybe it's resonating, maybe it's not.
Yogi Mueller (36:04.14)
great stuff. The first thing I popped in my head was, and we both talked about how we're both parents, that you can't tell your kids anything. You tell them A, B, C, a D, and they're going be like, whatever. But a teacher at school or somebody else tells them A, B, C, they think it's the most brilliant thing they've ever heard. And you're like, I'm glad I didn't think about that. And so the word that popped in my head, Betsy, was obligation. If you're in an organization, you have an obligation to the organization.
potentially first, then the leader. But if you're in a true intentional mentorship relationship, your obligation is that individual. There are no other things, there are no other, you know, you're a parent, that's why you know, you're a parent to your kids, not a friend. Because if you do that separation, then you're able to make decisions and calls and interact with that child in an appropriate way. If you become their friend, that blurs lines because your obligations change.
And I think if you, will you base mentorship, it's that concept of why are you in this relationship? What is your application? Is it to you? Is it to your fees? Is it to your, you know, what is that thing? I think you can be a great coach and a mentor, but you can also be a great coach and not a mentor. think there are, there is some divisions there that make it.
To my mind they're clear, but you asked me to articulate it, I might not be able to do it so well.
Betsy Jordyn (37:35.392)
I think that a coach, so I think that there's a difference between a consultant and a coach and a mentor. You could be a consultant who coaches, a coach who consults, you could be a consultant who coaches and mentors, you know, but it all is like understanding like what's the role in the office that I'm playing at that moment. And I think where the line is different is like a mentor provides guidance out of a lived experience of wisdom. You know, it's not like I just ask you questions and you know, coaching is like I ask you questions and I believe the, I believe all the insight is in you.
Like to me, like I deliberately call myself a business mentor because I want to take that office. And it's partially, like, I'm going to guide you out of my lived wisdom, you know, and I'll knock you aside the head. A coach was not going to knock you outside the head, but I will be pushing you. Like I'll tell people all the time, like when we were contracting, like you'll tell me what you want and I won't forget it. And I'm going to keep pushing you to get to your highest potential. If you told me you want X, we're going to go for X. But if I were a coach, I couldn't do that.
you know, because that's not the coaching methodology or even a consultant because a consultant's just giving, you know, it's a different kind of relationship. But a mentor to me, you know, comes from this office, this spiritual role of that you could choose to walk into that is different. And it's like, it's partially out of my lived wisdom, you know, like what Obi-Wan has to share with Luke about the following the way of the force or even Yoda as the subsequent mentor.
You know, it's out of their experience of years and years and years and years and years of in the trenches. And so like this wisdom doesn't come from the book knowledge or the head. comes, it doesn't even come from the heart. It comes from your whole body.
Yogi Mueller (39:19.086)
100%. And I, and I go back to sports coaches as well. And some of them transcend into being mentors for the students and others to stay a coach. You know, because, because if, you know, they're, they're pushing somebody to have a better team or you pushing some of this to be a better person, to be a better, you know, version of themselves. it, it, there's a gray lines, but I, you can't, if you, if you, if you're genuinely in one of those three areas that you're talking about and you're generally.
Betsy Jordyn (39:28.034)
Yeah.
Yogi Mueller (39:49.538)
there to support and develop others, you can't go wrong. There's no wrong direction there. And not being able to put a moniker on it is not going to destroy the impact that you're having.
Betsy Jordyn (40:02.53)
Well, it can go wrong because, you know, Darth Vader didn't work out so well for, you know, Obi-Wan. you know, there are times that your mentees do not always...
Yogi Mueller (40:16.778)
and the art of the lightsaber duel.
Betsy Jordyn (40:21.274)
Like Obi-Wan would probably say, like, I think we're going to hold your craft beer for a second. Hold your craft beer.
Yogi Mueller (40:29.268)
He Obi-Wan did say if you strike me down, I will be more powerful than you could ever imagine.
Betsy Jordyn (40:36.812)
No, I'm talking about when Anakin, the earlier part, when Anakin was the mentee who turned it to Darth Vader, it did not work out so well. You're saying it can't not go well. Sometimes it doesn't go well in terms of the mentee doesn't follow through or goes to the dark side.
Yogi Mueller (40:54.818)
There you are because if you look at the requirements you look at the trust There wasn't he started to not trust his mentor, right? He was kind of thrusted and he didn't ask to be a Jedi apprentice. He was thrusted into that so there was a lack of volunteerism and The 51 % he didn't bring the 51 % to want to be a better Jedi And so those three things automatically point that it was a mentorship relationship doomed to fail
Betsy Jordyn (41:24.846)
gosh, I can't believe that we're using Star Wars to analyze those qualities. This is the best. What are you seeing? The law thinking and Star Wars. Can we deconstruct the different types of mentors? Like there's the Obi-Wan who just pops up and then just disappears. And then there's like in the trenches mentor like Yoda who's literally on the back of his neck and you know, like there's that kind of mentor.
Yogi Mueller (41:52.994)
Well, I'm gonna start humming the theme song, but you might run into copyright infringement on that, so I won't do it.
Betsy Jordyn (41:59.384)
Well, I don't know. I was watching Shrinking and there was like a scene where they had the Indiana Jones theme song. So I keep having that in my mind. So if you override it with the Star Wars, my brain's going to be like, OK, which Megabuster?
Betsy Jordyn (42:18.712)
So let's talk about, before we leave off of us being mentors, I want to talk more explicitly, Ron, how do you do the great slopping and how do you create the conditions where the great slops are going to be received?
Yogi Mueller (42:35.33)
Well, I definitely need to preface. I was on a guest on a podcast and the first question is, why did you pick such a violent name for your book? That's a good way to start it. There you go. You know, I don't advocate physical violence in any way, no matter how much they might deserve it, right? So that's the disclaimer. You know, the great slapping is those moments where just like a physical slap, there's gonna be pain.
And it's going to hurt your ego. It's going to take you down. You're going to feel like you were cut out at the knees. And then there's that moment of clarity where you slap clarity, you know, where you just, you kind of wake up a little bit and your eyes open and you see things from new perspectives. And, and I, I recounted some areas of my life where that happened to me, where somebody who, you know, I, this guy, don't remember his name, God bless him, but I remember he gave me a verbal lashing.
because he's like, what are you doing? You're screwing up. This is not gonna help you be a better person. And I remembered that, and I mostly remembered how I felt. My wife picked me up, or girlfriend at that time, and I was like, I was destroyed. But that guy changed my life. That guy woke me up. And it was like a slap. And so, the beloved Kevin McCarthy, I didn't know what I was gonna name the book, but I described what that wheeling was. I said, it's like a great slapping. like, don't you call it the great slapping?
Evans opened up and I'm like, what a great idea, you know? Yeah, it is, it is. Either people think it's like some sort of like, somebody said they thought it was like a murder mystery book or something that they're not into that genre, they didn't pick it up. I'm like, things you learn, right?
Betsy Jordyn (44:06.827)
What's catchy?
Betsy Jordyn (44:20.44)
thought of from like that How I Met Your Mother TV show where they had a slap butt. And so like I have that in my mind too. I have a million earworms going on. So.
Yogi Mueller (44:30.342)
you do actually. By the way, if you look for it on Amazon, there's a book underneath it that's not in the same genre as my business mentoring book based on Slack.
Betsy Jordyn (44:42.894)
Yoki's in the naughty category.
Yogi Mueller (44:48.542)
I was number one in that category. You you asked for the conditions and I go back to those two things, there has to be the trust. If I'm gonna give you feedback that's gonna sting, you need to know that I'm doing it for all the right reasons. I need to know you're gonna take it for all the right reasons. Bottom line, trust is the foundation. Anything else you're building in on a foundation of sand, right there. And honestly, think that's one of the reasons why, another reason why I wrote the book is I...
I fear for the future of mentorship. think we've become too soft. We've become too sensitized. Want to bubble wrap everything and not destroy somebody's psyche, you know, and, tough feedback these days has taken in as an attack. So people just don't want to engage anymore because they don't want to get lashed at cause you're providing feedback or they're, they're, they're afraid to open up their, their vulnerable doors and let people in. you know, God bless people like Bernie Brown working on that because I think that.
that could literally sever all this great stuff that we talk about mentorship. If we can't get past our own ego and ability to receive tough feedback, we're only going to grow so much as a species.
Betsy Jordyn (45:59.298)
Well, we're in a culture now where anytime you say anything, it's like, you're toxic. You're narcissistic. So then it's like, if you're a mentor, you're on eggshells because it's like, I don't want you to feel this way. But I do think that if you set up the conditions upfront, I'll tell people now in all of my partnership setups with my industrial clients, it's like,
I just need to be clear, I always will have your best interests and I'll let you know when I get especially animated, it's not gonna be around just my best practices, I'm gonna be animated around my worst practices, the things that cost me tons of money. And so you don't have to do anything with it, but I just ask that you try it on. I'll say this, like my kids, I tell my kids, you can make your own mistakes, just don't make mine.
And I think it's like sometimes you could set the conditions of saying, will be raising difficult issues. That's the other thing, as I always ask for. I will be raising difficult issues. I will have an independent point of view. And this is part of the partnership and you set it up when you're at the beginning so that when you're in the tough moments, you could say, remember when I asked you this and like, remember I asked for this permission now, let's talk about that part.
But it's hard because then people get litigious if you have to have your professional liability because it's like, well, you're just supposed to be my cheerleader all the time.
Yogi Mueller (47:26.082)
No, and I love setting expectations right up front and letting it melt. that's why I lead with there's no fluff, man. It's sandpaper learning. You see captains don't learn how to sail on smooth waters. Let's make it rough, right? And because you're gonna come out more refined and polished afterwards. And I love that. So there's no surprises. You're setting expectations early.
Betsy Jordyn (47:50.19)
So what is a mentee? Okay, so I wanna finish on the, so if you're moving into the mentor role, you have to set the expectations, set the conditions, be in that best interest and build that trust. But let's talk about the mentee and what they need to do to show up to be a good mentee, to make it really worth somebody else's life wisdom. What are they supposed to do?
Yogi Mueller (48:16.76)
So I use the analogy of climbing a mountain, right? Your mentor is going to be up there ensuring the ropes don't get tangled to make sure that your path is clear, but they're not going to pull you to the top of the mountain. You got to climb, right? And their job is to ensure that all of the ancillary things around you are working right, and that you're seeing things clearly, that there are appropriate safety nets. Sometimes you need to stumble a little bit, but there's appropriate safety nets.
But you gotta do a lion's share of the work to go back to Simba and climb that mountain, right? Nobody's chasing you down. Nobody cares, as we said, nobody cares more about your career than you do. And if you're not bringing the energy, don't expect the mentors to be a mirror. You know, I will tell my mentors, hey, you I'm here for you. You call me, I got you, but I'm not chasing you down.
You have to own this relationship. You have to own what you get out of it. If a mentor goes in with precognitive understandings and predestination feelings, I mean, they know what the potential is, but they can't set the goal. They can set the general direction, but not the destination. you know, that's, you know, I talk about things and maybe this was maybe a follow-up question, but there are things that mentors can do that screw things up.
They take too much ownership. tried to be a savior. They tried to have the answer for everything. Those are the things that will just derail a mentor relationship. So mentees, bottom line, you gotta own it, baby. You gotta own it.
Betsy Jordyn (49:53.878)
Yep. Yeah, like Chris King used to always say, going back to other mentors, is we don't work harder than our clients. You know, like they have to bring the energy. And I think that that is part of that setting expectation is you have to reach out to me. This is what's available. You have to bring the energy, you know, and I will get you to where you want to go, but you have to go there. And I like your example of going up the...
Yogi Mueller (50:18.878)
And there was a phrase that I learned early at Disney, and I talk about this in the book, it's that you can be responsible to people, but not for people. And as a consultant, if you're going to be responsible for your clients' actions, that is a recipe for disaster. And you can be responsible to them, deliver what you're supposed to deliver in a genuine fashion of interest and development, but the line draws right there.
Betsy Jordyn (50:47.116)
Yeah, you have to understand what your monkeys and circuses are and what their monkey and circuses are. Going back to the animals, we have an animal theme going on here, but.
Yogi Mueller (50:51.79)
100%.
Yogi Mueller (50:56.948)
Head, animals.
Betsy Jordyn (50:58.926)
Yeah, but not the day the animals, as I revealed to you in my childhood trauma. Speaking of Star Wars, we were talking beforehand that when we went to, when I was little and Star Wars just came out, it was like two movies in the theater and Star Wars is one and the day of the animals was another. And my mother thought Star Wars would be too scary. So she took me to day of the animals. It was terrifying. And I was still freaked out by birds. But anyway, so let's talk.
Yogi Mueller (51:27.278)
If you told that today, young kids would be like, you went to theater and there were only two screens? What?
Betsy Jordyn (51:33.966)
I know, Or they might even ask, like, you went to the movies? Like, why wouldn't you just stream it? Like, what is that all about?
Yogi Mueller (51:45.282)
I'm on Gen X stories.
Betsy Jordyn (51:50.094)
Wait till they hear about how you had to wait until like somebody called you and this little thing would ring and then you'd answer and you'd say hello. And then you'd talk to the person on the other side. And if they didn't send you a message for a sec, it's now a good time, they would just interrupt you. It didn't matter what you were doing.
Yogi Mueller (52:13.446)
Your mobile line was a cord long enough to go to the top of the stairs and close the door behind you. Exactly. the cord wrapped to the kitchen, right?
Betsy Jordyn (52:21.12)
And your joint call is when you realize like there's cause why you had two phone lines. And if I could just like push the little button between it and I just hold it just like this, can go like both my friends have talked at the same time.
John X was a lot more fun.
Yogi Mueller (52:38.599)
God, we're hysterical. Best generation ever, right here.
Betsy Jordyn (52:42.378)
I know, right? We were, and we had the best music. We had the worst clothes, but the best music. No. Right? both parts. Our clothes was unfortunate. I don't, I can't really justify the acid watch or the, the pla, the parachute pants or the leggings.
Yogi Mueller (52:48.161)
Amen? Amen.
Betsy Jordyn (53:02.636)
I cannot justify that. There's no excuse.
Yogi Mueller (53:06.094)
Airways and Browns and forest greens in the late 70s so
Betsy Jordyn (53:10.67)
And I really cannot ever find a justification for the mullet, you know, or the bi-level haircut, like...
Betsy Jordyn (53:21.31)
The bangs? Yeah. No, I didn't have like that part. The bangs, it would be like, and then the perm face. That's another whole thing. Anyway, we have to talk about mentoring. Sorry. We digress from this into our Gen X-E world. Okay, so let's talk about consultants and coaches who want to get a mentor. Why would somebody choose to look for a mentor rather than a coach?
or rather than somebody else? what would be the benefit for a consultant, coach to seek out a mentor versus like a business coach?
Yogi Mueller (53:55.214)
Like you talked about Rafiki, somebody on the outside that sees your blind spots. We never are able to see all of our blind spots at one time. And getting somebody to be able to take that third party look at you and what you're doing and your messaging and your websites and your marketing is always a plus. Always an opportunity to get better.
you talk about the Odyssey, Socrates said, you know, the wise man is the one that knows he knows nothing. And if you are a mentor or a consultant, no matter how skilled, talented, experienced you are, there's more juice in that lemon to squeeze. And sometimes that mentor is going to give you perspectives that you didn't even consider before. So if, if there's an interest, if there's an interest in being better and doing more and being more, find a mentor, either find a, a, a professional relationship.
coach like Betsy or like I did, I joined an organization of OD professionals and they had a mentorship program within it. And I not only found an amazing mentor to help me write a book and be a consultant, but he's a dear friend that we built out of that relationship. So I think ultimately, Betsy, it's gotta come from in here. It's gotta come from what you want and what you're able to see where your opportunities are. If you don't have anything to prove, God bless you. Good luck.
Betsy Jordyn (55:20.535)
And
Yogi Mueller (55:20.726)
If you do, then there are people out there, as we talk about it, that are very willing to give back and help you out.
Betsy Jordyn (55:28.822)
One thing that I think a lot of us have a problem with is like professional helpers and the people who are always giving advice is like, I should already know how to do this. You know, like that myth or that shame that is like, why don't I understand how to do this? How would you help somebody overcome that? I should already know how to do this myth and find the right support from somebody who's been where they want to go and could show them how to get to where they want to get to go faster. But they still have this like, why don't I know how to do this?
I give advice all day long. help other people grow businesses. I'm a coach or I'm a, you know, I could do this.
Yogi Mueller (56:04.366)
physician heal thyself
Betsy Jordyn (56:07.021)
That's a good answer.
Yogi Mueller (56:09.198)
I've literally said that to myself. I don't know if it was in my head, my inner voice, my guardian angel go, Jesus, you tell everybody how to do this. Why can't you figure it out yourself? Well, you you're dealing with a lot of other layers that you don't have to deal with on the outside. you know, it's one of those things that because we do it for other people, we're so, this is me personally, is
My life for the last 30 years has been dedicated to helping other people grow and develop. The last person I thought about was me. So sometimes it's not, it's not a, it's not a, and I'm gonna use this in a very definitive word, ignorance. You have lack of knowledge of something, that's why you're ignorant of it. But you've spent your life investing in others. And sometimes to make that leap from,
Focusing 100 % on putting other people's needs ahead of your own to start focusing on your own that is an uncomfortable Sometimes scary and alien journey and having somebody Walk with you during that especially somebody that's been through that exact same journey Where they had to come up with those own personal observations and understanding about the new realities they live in Essential essential, you know
You're not, you don't fail at anything, you don't know how to do it. Think about that, right? And so if you are learning something new, you're ignorant, I'm gonna say that, I was ignorant going in the consulting world. There were things that I didn't know. So you can't fail at anything you don't know how to do. Now, if you spent a year and a half working with a coach and you still don't know how to do it, that's a whole other conversation. But.
The fear that you have on how you would be viewed, that's all up here. That's all the block that you create yourself. So, you know, it's funny Betsy, when I had to work with people that are in service business like us or that have been in the hospitality world, and I start talking about their personal development, they go, I wanna be a better leader because I wanna help my team or I wanna do this. And I said,
Yogi Mueller (58:29.346)
I said, you realize everything that you've created for you on your development plan was literally for the benefit of other people. You can't take five minutes and think about how to better yourself because you want it. I literally had to give these leaders permission to think about themselves. And you're so conditioned, you're so focused on that goal of hospitality and consulting that you don't give yourself a second thought.
And sometimes that mentor is going to give you that permission.
Betsy Jordyn (59:02.638)
And I think the mentors also going to normalize some things for you. You know, is that the reality is, if you're a growth oriented person, you're going to always hit the edge of what your competence level is. And then there's just the unknown to get to this next level. And I think that's where the mentors shine is they step in because they, they know how to, they, they have the maps through the unknown. They can get you to that next level, but you need to go to that next level for yourself, you know, and then others will benefit. But the hero goes on the journey to get this boon and this
insight that they bring back to, they bring back to others, but they learn it for themselves first. It's an embodied learning rather than an external like, want to learn how to do this. And I think that that's a really important perspective shift that I'm really grateful that you provided.
Yogi Mueller (59:47.95)
I know you didn't bring up Phil as a mentor. That's a whole other conversation in Hercules, by the way. He has another complete journey, too.
Betsy Jordyn (59:56.422)
yeah, we should do a whole episode on the mentors and the Disney, the Disney thing. Do you have a podcast? We'll do it on your show next.
Yogi Mueller (01:00:03.822)
That was brought up with another podcast host that focuses on Disney, and she brought up Phil. But I like the idea of digging into that because there are archetypes all over the place that we can find.
Betsy Jordyn (01:00:19.082)
Okay, so stay tuned for a future episode with Yogi and I where we are going to analyze the Disney annals for the role of the mentor in all of the different movies and the archetypes that they represent. Good, bad, or what have you. So stay tuned, we're gonna have that show. Okay, so how could people get your book and connect with you?
Yogi Mueller (01:00:33.998)
Bring it on.
Yogi Mueller (01:00:41.178)
My book is available. Ebook is available on all outlets. You can get the paperback on amazon.com. You can also find the link at craftleadership.net, which is my home website. And then I'd love to have you reach out to me on LinkedIn. Love to stay connected.
Betsy Jordyn (01:00:58.784)
Awesome. And if they want your help of like instituting more mentorship into organizations, like, is there other things that you can provide them kind of behind the scenes as they're doing their consulting or coaching work and wanting to move into that mentoring space?
Yogi Mueller (01:01:13.058)
Well, it's funny, a lot of the work that I've done recently has been about how do I write a book? So I've kind of moved into a little bit of a new area there. you know, whether you're looking for your, your, your personal work, we can, we can bring in the, the grid index, the framework there, to work with. could work with your organization. We could work with, you know, your talent landscape, your ecosystem to ensure that you have a, a cradle to grave type of, process in your, in your,
in your organization to ensure your talent is, is kept developed and, ready to have you grow in your next business success that you want to have. So, looking forward to chatting with anybody. Give me a shout.
Betsy Jordyn (01:01:56.718)
Awesome. Well, that's awesome. Thank you. And thank you so much for being on the show. And thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. And for all of you, if you enjoyed this conversation, please rate and review it, subscribe, subscribe to the show so more people find it. My take on this whole idea around the mentorship is that this is our role for us to step into. I think this is the ultimate real purpose of consultants and coaches. I don't think that we're just supposed to be paid listening ears or just
experts with all the answers. I think that we are supposed to play this role. So if you are needing help to position yourself more as the mentor on your client's transformation journey, I'd love to work with you. You can check out what I do on my website. And I think that's it for now. Thanks so much for listening, everyone.
Yogi Mueller (01:02:41.582)
It's been a magical journey. That's it. Thank you so much.
Betsy Jordyn (01:02:44.596)
It's been magical. It really has. Thank you so much.
