Betsy Jordyn (00:00.128)
Is your consulting or coaching business in the product, service, or the transformation industry? Find out with my guest, Joseph Pine, on today's episode of the Consulting Matters podcast.
Betsy Jordyn (00:14.52)
Welcome to the Consulting Matters podcast. This is the show for purpose-driven consultants and coaches who are ready to own the power of what they do and position themselves for greater impact and income. I'm your host, Betsy Jordyn, and I am both a business mentor and a brand positioning and messaging strategist. You can find out about all the things I do to help my clients repackage the best of their career and turn it into a business that they and their clients love on my website at www.BetsyJordyn.com.
So let's get into today's episode, which is all about getting your consulting or coaching business firmly in the transformation business. And what this means is shifting your perspective from whatever you do with your clients and whatever you want to sell them and seeing that as really more the means to a bigger end, which is what your clients truly desire, which is achieving their aspirations and becoming the person that they want to become or becoming the business that they want to become. And without this shift, we leave value on the table.
So to help us unpack this and to help you see the path from products to services to experiences to transformation, I am so excited, I'm beyond excited to bring you author, speaker, and advisor to Fortune 500 companies like my beloved Disney, where I first got introduced to his work back in 1999 when I was a brand new OD consultant, Joseph Pine. So one of my first projects when I was at Disney was with the Fort Wilderness Campgrounds. So the GM was Cesar.
And at our very first meeting, he handed me Joe's Experience Economy book. And he's like, listen, I want you to take these ideas and help me implement it so we can stage engaging and immersive experiences for all our guests at the fort. So I have been a fan of Joe's work since then. And so I'm even more of fan of his with his brand new book on the transformation economy, which made me realize why I have all these butterflies all over the place. Like I got it on my wrist. I got it in my icon. I have it behind me.
because I love our industry, I love the transformation industry and how much transformation is such a key part of what I do with my clients and what I help them do with their clients. So in today's episode, we're gonna get into the differences between the product service experience and transformation economy. We're gonna talk about what transformation really is and how understanding this transforms your understanding of what the product that you are offering your client actually is. You're gonna learn the steps you need to take
Betsy Jordyn (02:30.06)
to make this shift into transformation. So without further ado, I'm so excited. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the show, Joe.
Joe Pine (02:37.674)
It's an honor, Betsy. It's pleasure to be with you.
Betsy Jordyn (02:41.454)
So as I said before, like, okay, so I've been a fan of your work from the time I was like a brand new OD consultant back in 1999 and getting ready for our episode, I went and dug into my archives of like all my Disney stuff and I found this like work session agenda that I did on the experience economy. Like that was like the huge book back in the, when did you write that book? 19.
Joe Pine (03:05.166)
1999 it came out, the first edition. We've got two other editions, the last one in 2020.
Betsy Jordyn (03:11.32)
So that's when I first got introduced to you with the work is I had a client hand me the book and said, implement this. And so hopefully when you saw that agenda, you're like, she really did this. But anyway, I could go on and on and on about how awesome you are. And other times when I was at Disney, when you got brought in. Don't let me. I. But it's like, OK, so this show has to serve like my audience and not just for me and me fangirling. But I also remember when.
Disney was going through a lot of transformation. You were part of those big projects. So I've been a fan of your work for a really, really long time. Like I remember we were going through this whole like digital transformation thing. I think, I don't know if you were a part when Disney started letting people, you know, get their bags at home and then like the magic bands and all of the other.
Joe Pine (03:58.254)
I remember the magic buzz, yeah.
Betsy Jordyn (04:00.632)
So is that all part of you?
Joe Pine (04:02.424)
Well, yeah, I asked. I did workshops that I remember that idea came out over the folks I worked and did that. I can't really any claim to it, nor to the Magic Band, which John Padgett tells me was inspired by workshops that I did where I really emphasized the fact that Disney, like premier experience stage in the world, but it's all mass. It's not individual.
and you need to get down to that individual. And so that spark, and it led them to, at least one of the streams, it led them to coming up with the Magic Band. And eventually John Pageant leaving there and joining Carnival to come up with the Medallion Class at Princess Cruise that takes it even farther.
Betsy Jordyn (04:49.582)
That's so fun. Okay, I've got to stop fangirling. I have to go serve my audience. We are here to talk about this book. We're here to talk about the Transformation Economy, your latest, greatest book. But before we get into it, I want for my listeners to kind of back up. Like, so you have, looked in your LinkedIn profile. I thought it was surprising. You have an education in math and technology, you know, before. So it's like, now you're talking about transformation. So could you just like take a little bit of a, just a...
you know, high level overview of your career and how you went from here to there.
Joe Pine (05:21.038)
Yeah, I'm a nerd from way back, Betsy. You know, I used computers before that was the thing starting in seventh grade. My dad was in the computer industry in the ground floor. And, and, uh, so did get applied math degree so I could use both computers and math. That's great at both and English for that matter. Uh, and, uh, joined IBM, worked there for 13 years, uh, moved from tech, moved from jobs to management and strategy. And as a reward for a project I did, IBM sent me to MIT for a year to get my master's degree.
And I found out how to write a thesis. So I said to myself, well, I'm going to write a thesis I can turn into a book. And that was my first book, actually, mass customization based on Stan Davis's great book, Future Perfect, where he introduced that term. I worked in strategy to get that idea of efficiently serving customers uniquely, right? In that not mass, but individual, but efficient, right? That is the mass part.
I got into our plans and strategies at IBM and then wrote the book on it. And after it came out about six months later, IBM offered my wife and I six months salary to leave. So I said, let's see if I can make it on my own. many decades later, my wife's still not sure it's going to work out, but so far so good. And so through mass customization, I discovered the experience economy and the transformation economy for that matter.
by recognizing that mass customizing goods automatically turns them into services. Cause you have that service of helping them design exactly what it is they want, but only then no inventory, right? Only then do you produce it on demand and give it to individual customer. And when asked, what is mass customization turn a service into? I shot back that mass customization turns the servers into an experience. And that was, you know, just came out of my mouth, you know, no forethought, just Providence.
And I realized, well, if that's true, if you design a service that's so appropriate for particular person that you can't help but make them go wow and turn it into a memorable event. And that's what an experience was. And asking that question at the same time, one more time, this is in the mid-90s, of what customization turns an experience into is, well, it's a life-changing experience. And that's the transformation.
Joe Pine (07:36.792)
so that they recognize that experiences and transformations were distinct economic offerings. Therefore, there'd be economies based off of them. And that led to, with my partner, Jim Gilmore, who we actually had our 30th anniversary as a partnership yesterday. Wow. A managing partner as well. That led to the articles in the book on the experience economy of which the last two chapters were on transformation.
You know, but people have been asking me for 25 years, when are you going to write a full book on it? And I finally said, okay, time's right.
Betsy Jordyn (08:09.966)
So like I know for sure when I was at Disney, we didn't really get quite into the whole transformation. So I have been waiting as well. Could you explain this model a little bit more? sure. Just like for those who are new to it, and I don't know if you have like a version of this that I can put onto my blog so that people can see this particular figure.
But I really, for my listeners, it would be important for us to understand the commodities, goods, services, and transformation and the differences. And if you could explain it also as it relates to consultants and coaches as well, how we can move, what are the differences at the different level?
Joe Pine (08:54.958)
Yeah, so that framework is called the progression of economic value, right? That is the core framework of both of these books, where we've gone from an agrarian economy based off commodities to an industrial economy based off goods through a service economy. And then what's happened is that goods and services are being commoditized, right? Where they're treated like commodities where people basically want to buy purely on price and convenience, right? That's when your offering's been commoditized.
And so, so as I mentioned, customization, commodization is like the law of gravity drags you down year after year, customization lifts you up, turning goods into services, services into experiences and experiences into transformations. So, so experiences use goods as props and services as a stage to engage each and every person inherently personally. Right. There by creating a memory, which is the hallmark of the experience. Right. So it is about,
Um, an easy way to think about is, is commodities, goods and services provide time well saved, but experiences provide time well spent. People value the time that they spend with you. So you think about, you know, I, I've certainly seen the term coaching services and that, uh, which is basically what matters is then is what you are doing for them. But your clients, if you want to call them that, I like to prefer the term aspirin. So we get to there, but your clients.
don't care about your inputs, right? They don't care about what you do. It's the time, first of all, the time they spend with you. So you create an experience with them that is memorable. By being memorable, they get to remember the principles that you're teaching them. They get to remember the activities that they need to do. They get to remember how to apply this to their life. And that application is the true transformation, right? Which uses experiences of raw material to guide people to change.
to help them achieve their aspiration. That's what transformations are. That's what business coaching is really in. And a way to understand that is look at the economic function. So there's three dynamics in the diagram that you show, and I'll give you a copy that you can put on your site. There's the commoditization dragging you down. There's customization lifting you up. But in the middle, there's another five things that are going on, and that's commodification to get a little academic on you.
Joe Pine (11:14.946)
That's where you turn something into an economic offering. And so there, the words we use there define the economic function that you extract commodities, you manufacture, make goods, you deliver services, again, it's about what you do delivering, but you stage experiences, right? And Disney know this very well, right? Staging simply means you intentionally design everything to create a particular set of impressions.
that create those memories and fulfill the theme of, of the experience. and then the economic function of transformations though is guide. You guide transformations. You don't make anybody transform. They have to transform themselves, right? You have to create the conditions under which, you, you guide them in which they will.
will climb that mountain and reach the peak, right, under your guidance, but you're not dragging them up there. They have to do it under their own volition. And of course, if you look up the synonym for guide, right, the very first one you're gonna come up with is coach, right? Guiding is coaching, coaching is guiding, and all coaches are, whether they know it or not, whether they do it well or not, whether they do it intentionally or not, they're in the transformation business.
Betsy Jordyn (12:30.776)
So, okay, so as it relates to the differences of like the commodities, goods, services, experiences of transformation, you could kind of see, it makes sense, like all the different phases. Like you have a, you know, in the commodities is you might go and buy like the flour and then the goods might be as I might buy the cake and then services somebody. I think you have that example.
Joe Pine (12:51.374)
The goods is where you buy the cake mix.
Betsy Jordyn (12:54.651)
you buy the egg mix, okay.
Joe Pine (12:55.886)
Services is buying the cake. Somebody does it for you. And then you've got the birthday party experience.
Betsy Jordyn (13:03.566)
So I guess the progression makes sense, but it's like, how does that relate to your consulting or coaching world? What would be at the commodity level versus the goods versus the services experiences?
Joe Pine (13:13.902)
Yes, I often work with companies in developing their own progression of economic value and understanding what those core commodities are and all the way up. When I do that, I say it's not always important to understand what the commodities are. And I think that's the case in coaching, that it's sort of immaterial. But I'll talk about it in a second, or at least potentials. But it's also, feel free to take poetic license with it.
Like when I talk about an MBA, progressive economic value, which I do a lot, I talk about commodities or the ideas and publications, right? They're not truly commodities. Publications are physical goods or digital services. Ideas are related to knowledge, which are more experiential than that. But they're sort of commoditized because all business schools have them because the professors have to publish. So it's sort of like the core thing that people are buying. And then...
And then at the goods level, you've got the, the books that they buy those, the actual publications, the, the, gear that they need to have, at the service level, you've got the, teaching of information and then the analysis of your homework at the experience level, you've got knowledge and networking that you're getting from out of the MBAs. But at the top level, it's really the new capabilities and new career.
That you want to have is why you go to that NBA? And so you're sort of similar to to coaching you may think about the commodities and again You don't have to go to this level but you may think about the commodities as sort of the method by which you coach Yeah, I think mostly of therapists here, you know where summer of 40 in school and summer of Gestalt tool and summer logo therapy and that sort of thing and sort of that's that's sort of the base right that you're working from is whatever
whatever method you have, maybe your own, maybe amalgamation, but that's sort of the base of what's going on there. And then the physical goods are the things that are around when you do the coaching. And maybe you've written a book, you've written some articles that you share. It may be that they're coming to you in your office with your chairs. And again, thinking about more of a psychotherapist, a couch that you may be on, or you go to their offices and everything then is a prop, right? That you can say, well, let me...
Joe Pine (15:34.444)
Let me describe mass customization. I just happen to have Lego bricks on hand, right? We're talking about modularity, right? I've got all these other things. I just happen to have a Geek Squad badge, right? I'm talking about how work is theater when you stage an experience and so forth, right? So these are the props that you use. Then the services are what you do and maybe the preparation you put into it beforehand. It may be the reaction to what's going on. It's basically what you say, what you demonstrate.
that yields the impressions in their minds and how they take that in and think about and create knowledge within them, right? That's sort of at the experience level. But then it is the outcome that's at the transformation level. What is the outcome of this coaching? What is the actual effect, the impact it has on the coachee? What term do you use, Betsy, for that?
Betsy Jordyn (16:32.866)
Well, I think at this point it's just clients. Like I like aspire and better. And it's like for consultants and coaches working in organizations or coaches as individuals, that it's like, it sounds like what you're saying at the end of the day is like, it's really aligning what you do to, it's really just repositioning like what you do from like, they're not buying my coaching hours, they're not buying my consulting advice, they're buying the impact, you know, like how does that transform them in someone? So it seems like
level, like the commodity, like any consultant or coach can have like the lean philosophy or the Harrison assessment or whatever the tool is. The good might, yeah, the tools or like the good might be is like you get the assessment or maybe have an e-course. Like that's a good. The services might be is like the personalized things that I do. Experiences might be when I create it to be more immersive, but all of it seems to change is if I'm looking at how do I create the solution
that will actually create the transformation.
Joe Pine (17:35.682)
Right, right. Because recognize that nobody wants to buy coaching from belly. It's a means to an end. What they want is to be a better X, right? To gain new capabilities, to become better in some way. And coaching is a means to be able to do that. So it's that outcome that they have an aspiration. You may be working with a large client of business and you're coaching many different people.
And the business has their own aspiration for where they want to take their management, their leadership, even their frontline workers to. but they also have their own individual where they act and what do they want to become that you have to take into account. can't just drill in, you know, the ideas of where management wants you to go without treating them as an individual person, customizing to them. And that's where to recognize that, that I'll use the term aspirants as they are aspirants. not saying that's a term you may want to use with them.
But if you understand and use that term, it changes your mindset, which then starts to change your own behavior to recognize that this isn't a client where I'm doing things for them. That's what client basically means. It's that they are an aspirant. And whatever I do, does it matter unless they achieve their aspiration. That's the core mindset that you need to have once you recognize you're in the transformation business.
Betsy Jordyn (19:01.602)
So one of the things I tell my clients when I work with them on their brand positioning and when we establish the context for their help is I would say, OK, your client is on a journey of transformation, whether you're with them or not. Like, this is their trajectory. They're going down this path. And it has nothing to do with you making them go down the path. This is their path. The idea of positioning is making sure that you are positioned as that person who comes alongside them. So I use the word partner more than I wouldn't.
I don't use the, I look at it as partnership. I like the word mentor and guide, but it still kind of like conveys like a little bit more of a one up, one down. I like the word partner is somebody who comes alongside them on the journey that you're on. So the whole point of why you work on your brand positioning is I wanna be able to know the trajectory. I don't wanna just know the person and I wanna know the person and their trajectory so I can position myself to walk alongside them on this journey of transformation that they're already going on. And I think that's the, I don't know if that.
resonates with what your philosophy is a very well here our mind melds and we're on the same page.
Joe Pine (20:04.142)
Right. think that's beautiful. I don't think it applies in every situation, but I do think as I always love the term coming alongside and thinking about how you're with them on their journey. When you think about the trajectory of their journey, I define that generally as a from to statement. Where are they today? What do they want to become? And then you design the set of experiences they need to have to get them from here to there.
And I think there will be situations, particularly if you think about once you get to the end of that journey and they go, you know, but I have this other thing I have an issue with, or to get them to spark new aspirations once they've achieved that, that there are times when you may want to meet with people at the very start, you may be meeting with people at the very start of the journey, as opposed to somewhere in the midway point. And often,
Why are they at a midway point? Because right now they're their own general contractor of their journey. And generally, if you're not a professional as a general contractor, you do a lousy job. That's why we need transformation guiders. That's why we need coaches to come alongside us and do that, because generally we don't do a very good job of it ourselves.
Betsy Jordyn (21:21.442)
And I think that the thing is that they don't always know what they don't know. So this is where, what I teach my clients is like when somebody comes to you and asks for methodology, which is at the commodities and the good level, maybe even the service level, but it's like you always have to stop them because my experience with clients is always wrong. Like they'll always ask for training. And I'll say like training is often necessarily rarely sufficient. Like rarely is it just knowledge and skills that you Like you need other things. You need your perspective to change. You need...
You need some tools, like you need a lot of other things to change in order to complete that journey. So it seems like if you're a consultant or a coach and you wanna guide somebody in a transformation, you really do have to back up beyond not even just what you might wanna sell a client on, but what they might even ask you for so that you can create a more comprehensive solution that actually is customized to them. And that seems like the only way that you'll be in that, like you say customization keeps going up.
It seems like that that is the only way that you're going to hit the transformation. And I think you addressed that in your book in a beautiful way. Could you explain why in order to create transformations, things do need to be customized to somebody?
Joe Pine (22:32.536)
Well, so, so, it's because it's because of what's happening inside of you. You know, think about commodities, good services, they exist outside of us. And for the first time experiences exist inside of us. It's our reaction to the events that are staged in front of us. That's why I call them economically inherently personal, inherently personal. No two people have the same experience, even if in the same place at the same time, because of their background, because of their mood that day, because of all these things that are going on. But.
transformations then reach inside of you and through experiences, right, as the progression indicates, all transformations are based off experience. We never change, except through the experiences that we have, or all the product of our experiences, as the saying goes. So, so when you're reaching inside of those experiences, then they change inside, right? We change from inside out again, they're doing the changing, right? Not you. And so you have, so it's, it's, it's, I just say it's, it's individual, right? Experiences are inherently personal, but transformations are individual.
the customer is the product. Think about it that way. The economic offering you provide is a change customer. Again, not anything that you do, but what they become. And therefore, it is necessarily very, very individual. There are transformations, there's the single life-changing transformations that in an instant or in an hour, we find ourselves changed.
But that, you know, and that doesn't need to be customized. It just, it just happenstance, right? It's just the circumstances that we bring together the, you know, the, learner and the master at the same time and boom, that sort of thing. But for, for the most part, you're working with them through a series of experiences and you do to design the experiences to be customized, the sequence to be customized, and then every individual will be customized. You also need to sense and respond.
to when something needs to change in that sequence that you may have predefined and go off your own path of how you might tend to do things because as you're going up to the right, it's never monotonically increasing. There's always ups and downs. There's regress as well as progress. You need to sense and respond to that and be able to handle that as well, which individually happens for every person at a different point in time and the response will need to be individual as well. It's an inherent part of what
Joe Pine (24:54.542)
coaching and guiding means.
Betsy Jordyn (24:57.742)
I have so many follow-up questions. You have a lot to say here. I need to zero in on one thing that I think is absolutely brilliant. And I think I'm going to probably use this phrase a lot because of how brilliant it is. It's that the customer is the product of what you're selling. I think a lot of consultants and coaches have a really hard time putting themselves out there, writing copy, putting themselves out there because it's like, oh my god, I'm the product. I'm the service. I'm the brand.
And I think that you're creating a very important fundamental shift in mindset at this exact moment is if you're in the transformation business, the product, what you're selling is their transformation. You're not selling yourself, you're selling their transformation. That's your product. That's your economic engine is their transformation. Right. I that right?
Joe Pine (25:51.372)
Right. Yep. Yep. That's right. And, and let, let me ask you a question, Betsy. I've, I've always, I've always, I've always said I'm not a brand guy. So let me preface by saying that. But what I think about branding, I always think that the brand actually exists inside of your customers or your potential customers. Right. You may define what you want the brand to be.
But it's its intersection with what you are saying, generically or expansively, and what they are experiencing is where the brand is actually formed. And so everybody has their own different little view of what that brand is. And I think that aligns with this notion that the customer is the product, because the brand is inside the customer as well, at least the brand in practice is, even if it's not the brand in theory that you want it to be.
Betsy Jordyn (26:47.756)
I'm trying to find those in your book that think that relates to it. There was a whole, I don't remember which chapter was on purpose.
Joe Pine (26:56.078)
Yeah, Chapter 5.
Betsy Jordyn (26:58.35)
So when you're talking about the purpose, the way I look at it is the brand to me is the intersection. So here's your client, they're on their journey, but then there's the unique aspect of you and what kind of guide you are. And to me, the brand is that overlap, the intersection. It's not just about the client alone, and it's not just about you alone. It's about when you're working with that person and you're applying your unique lens. Just like no customer is the same.
No guide's the same. We're all different. And so the catalytic moment, I think you talk about alchemy in the book as well, but it's like when you have that alchemical reaction is like, well, this is the person, the consultant is, each consultant and coach is different. So it creates a different transformation for each person. it's like, to me, it's the overlap, but the starting point is the client. It's the client and their problems, the journey of transformation that they're on.
And the only way that you'll ever even figure this out is you gotta get out of your head into their head. And I think you have a lot of tips around tapping into the aspirant's mindset and understanding the world. Can you share some of those tips on how do you tap and hack into that person's head?
Joe Pine (28:16.78)
Well, there's many different ways to think about that. One is to understand the true aspiration, recognize that if you just ask them what that aspiration is, generally you're not going to get a good answer from that. That's true. It's something you often have to uncover or discover and maybe help them discover what that is.
so, so one of ways I like to think about that is if you get technology involved as it it was some sort of design tool, which could be your methodology, right? Of, asking this sort of questions in these ways. It could be something, where you help them visualize their future self. and, and with AI today, you can basically, you know, take a stick drawing of what I think my aspiration is and then put it into AI and it can.
It can make it something beautiful that actually makes sense of what you're trying to do and give you then give you something to respond to where it's not just yours anymore. Now it's out there. So I can think about that and say, yeah, maybe more about this and so forth. It's also important to understand where your aspirants are coming from, you know, the framework for different types of.
catalyst for transformations that when we wrote the experience economy, my original conception was always like the bluebird of happiness came down and gave you an aspiration, right? Well, no, that rarely happens. But there can be those that are sort of your directing yourself and you've thought about this is what we want. But a lot of aspirations come via happenstance, via what we'll call discovery.
that you particularly see this with, uh, what's called transformational travel, where you go to a place, you, you get out of your, your quotidian life, you encounter new vistas and new places and new people. And it's like, wow. Um, uh, I discovered something about myself or discover something about who I want myself to be. And that sparks that, that, that desire for a transformation journey, uh, and maybe pure.
Joe Pine (30:32.958)
serendipity, where, you just sort of, you know, happen along, you you meet somebody in a cafe, you watch a movie that sparked something and, and, and so forth. So you weren't really planning on anything to happen. and then, there's also, it turns out a lot of, transformation that, that happened out of what are called disruption. Right. That, that your life is disrupted in saying some way your business is disrupted in some way.
I will bet a lot of the coaching you do is in fact because of disruption going on in the business or in the life. I discovered that trauma is a catalyst for transformation, which I hadn't really thought about before. That something happens in your life. You lose a loved one, you get fired, you get a cancer diagnosis, right? All these different types of trauma. And what happens there is that actually you're immediately changed when you have trauma.
But not in a positive way, in a negative way. Because all transformation is identity change. And your identity just changed. I'm a person with cancer. I am a widow. I am no longer a worker, an employee. I got fired, that sort of thing. And then it's a matter of bringing them back to whole, a new whole. You'll never go back to that person. So it is a metamorphosis when you have that immediate identity change.
but you can bring them back to discover, what parts of themselves that need to come to the fore now, and what new aspects of identity that you need to take on to recover from that trauma and, be a, a, I'll just say a whole person again.
Betsy Jordyn (32:16.042)
This is what I call like the call to business adventure. I would say the majority of my clients, you know, I work with mid-career professionals who leave it and become a consultant or coach. And I think out of all the clients that I've worked with over the past 10, 15 years, only one of them really got to it just strictly because of vision. Like, I decided a year in advance that I want to retire and I'm going to go make this plan. Everybody else got fired, you know, got laid off, had some sort of like really bad re-job.
job redefinition, burnout, something. Something like that's where I think we both are fans of the heroic journey. You know, there's always the call to adventure and then there's the refusal of the call because it's like, well, don't like it. Nobody wants any of this. Like who wants this change? Like Luke Skywalker, like Obi-Wan's like, hey, let's come with me and learn the force. It's like, nah, I'm good. You know, I'm just going to go to Toshi station and get some power converter. It's like, I don't need that. But then his aunt and uncle died and he's like, well, I guess I don't have a choice.
Now I'm forced into it. Nobody goes on, because of all the unknown, how difficult it is. Nobody asks for it, but it is the transformation template. I think why I think the butterflies are fascinating is it just goes into the cocoon, and then the caterpillar literally digests itself of everything, not the adult butterfly. Seems pretty violent in there. That does not seem like our...
Joe Pine (33:41.569)
I don't know what girls hot to get out.
Betsy Jordyn (33:44.012)
Like we make it seem like they go in like this and out like they have wings, but nobody really talks about like the cocoon seems like it must suck. You know, it must not be, it's achy, you know? So I think to your point about the general contractor, I don't think it's like you're in the middle of it. I think it's like you're in the middle of it because it's messy and yucky and therefore you need a guide or you need somebody who's been in the muck who can kind of show you.
Joe Pine (33:54.062)
That'd be a key.
Betsy Jordyn (34:09.454)
Because I think in our magical world, like from transformation, I think a lot of us wants to go and become a caterpillar, and then we just want to take some wings and tap it onto ourselves, and we don't want to go through that in-between process, and we're ready to fly. And I think that's where a lot of people manifest change. We just want to, you two can manifest yourself into some sort of spiritual being. I'm like, OK, but you got to go through the cocoon. It's the way. It's the sucky way.
Joe Pine (34:38.634)
And I know you, you're a big fan of this book as well as I am. Chris Rachel Gole is the writer's journey. If anybody wants to fully get into the hero's journey, this is the book to get. Don't get Joseph Campbell's book. It stinks actually. I just, don't think the book's very good, but that book is wonderful.
Betsy Jordyn (34:55.64)
I use Joseph Campbell's hard room.
Joe Pine (34:57.87)
Right. I use it as, as my guide, in creating a more generic transformation journey, right. Which also is in chapter five of the book, you know, 12 steps that, that includes, I use, I use different words like, know, the called it's called adventure, right. Is where the aspiration forms, the refusal. I just, I simply call hesitation, right. There's often there's a hesitation there and so on.
But one of the things that comes through there is I think is one of the most important models, I think, for your audience. And a model that I'm sure that most all of them already do in one way, form, because it's sort of natural and it's very academically researched of what works in that. But the way to turn any experience, you think of back in your Disney days as well, Betsy, any experience they have into a transformative one,
is best done and and fairly easily done well at least the first two parts with what I call encapsulation and encapsulation is when you take that experience and you Do preparation beforehand reflection afterward and then integration on an ongoing basis Okay, and so any almost any experience including the one-on-one sessions that you have with your aspirants Where you prepare them beforehand about what you're going to talk about?
about what the possibilities might be about thinking about where they're at, right? Right. Versus coming in cold, get them thinking of it ahead of time. You have that coaching experience or any other experience, and then you have reflection. Right. The last part of it, because ideally it's done immediately. There are other ways to do it, but ideally immediately have them reflect on that and what happened and, reflection retroactively and automatically increases the value of what they just went through. And it gets them really cementing the memories of what happened.
thinking about what the possibilities are, thinking about what those next steps, reflection is always a preparation for the next adventure, the next part of the experience that you'll go through, the journey. And then integration is then how you help them take those changes that happen with the experience and reflection and integrate them in their lives, right? Which is really what coaching does. And often, like you said, you said you're often on a transformation journey and you're helping them in the middle of it.
Joe Pine (37:18.73)
Sometimes they will come to you at the end of it because they don't know how to keep it going. They don't know how to really Integrate it into their lives and then there are there. I've there's a term now integration therapists, right? There also be integration coaching right think about it coaching you can do on people that that have all have Transformed but the companies they work with there or as their own general contractor. There is no integration going on There's no follow through to the experience and they're left to their own devices and then it can dissipate, know and
and eventually go away. Integration is so very important to the sustenance, to the long-term sustaining of the transformation.
Betsy Jordyn (37:56.504)
So applying that model around how you can take anything and make it more transformational. want to use one of my clients, one of my favorite things that one of my clients offer. My client is Katie Anderson, and she takes people who are lean practitioners or people who trying to create that type of transformation in the organization, and she takes them to Japan. And what I think is really interesting about her experience, so it could be people who are...
internal or external lean consultants, it could be an intact leadership team, or it could be a manager who just wants to lead in another way. And they all come out raving. Like I read these testimonials like, and I'm crying because of their testimonial, you know, their stories. I'm like, why does this work? But what she does is like, she has the core of the experience is going to Japan. So in this experience, they go with colleagues or they go with their intact team. They go to...
It's learned at the actual site. So they learn from all of these different Japanese companies, like how they do things. Then they get Japanese cultural experiences that are really meaningful. Throughout the whole time, they're doing ongoing reflection. But what Katie does that's unique is she book guns it. So she book guns it with a lot of intention setting beforehand, a lot of preparation for it. And then she does a lot of post stuff, where there's a lot of work to help them turn it into an action plan.
and do a lot of post-trip reflection. I know it works. The testimonials will say it works. It's really hard to get like benefit-driven testimonials we have because the transformation is so emotional. But why does it work? Like if you were going to use this as an example of a totally a transformational experience, why does this work in a way than what a typical person might do with bring a bunch of people and have them in a workshop in an office somewhere?
Joe Pine (39:41.366)
Right. Well, it does perfectly exemplify the encapsulation that I talk about. Also recognized by going to Japan, you're instituting that transformational travel effect, right? Where we are most, research and practice shows we are most open to change when we get out of our daily life, right? So we leave that office behind. We leave the daily work behind. Hopefully they're not doing emails at night in the hotel room, but some of that will go on.
but they're focused and they're opening themselves up, right? And then the fact that you have this series of experiences that they are going through. And ideally, Katie is reflecting at the end of each day, or even at the end of each segment of the day, right, on and getting people to talk about it. You've also got the group accountability effect, you know, that the more excited, the most excited person.
gets about it, then the more excited everybody else is going to get. They're going lift themselves up because they're part of a cohort, which is you also have to worry about the cynics that may drag them down. And so you're encapsulating it perfectly. You're getting them out of their normal routine, opening themselves up to new possibilities. So it's a beautiful way to do it.
Betsy Jordyn (40:59.81)
So that's so that for some, her, she has this unique opportunity because like there's lean and there's Japan, you know, like you really like that's an unusual thing for others who don't have like that same type of thing. Any other tips around how they can create their whole experience to be more engaging? Like I think you had one of the, one of the elements is like the aesthetics and
and the entertainment value. And some people might read like those elements like, well, I don't have any, like, I mean, I think I have aesthetics with like, cause I offer websites. So like when my clients see like their photos and their thing, I have the aesthetics, but I'm not super entertaining. It's not like I'm going to do a little song and dances when I help my clients with their brand positioning. I mean, it's, it's fun. It's kind of like, I mean, it's not that it's fun. It's hard work. It's not that easy. So how do we make it a entertainment and all the other things that you have?
Joe Pine (41:49.486)
Right. Well, so, so one is, you know, I've often myself taken clients on experience expeditions, particularly, so they experienced some of the best, uh, a city has to offer. So I've done in New York, Chicago, Las Vegas, I've done in Los Angeles and, um, um, um, Seattle and Oregon, uh, just based on particular things. I've always wanted to do at the mall of America, you know, I live in the Minneapolis area and I was going to just do that for them. They were able to align a client with that. Um,
And, and I thought myself about how do I do that with transformations, right? It's, can't go to a city and experience 10 different transformative places and change 10 different times, you know, in a day or day and a half. So it's much more difficult to do. But you, but you can use the elements of experience staging in particularly in workshops is more so than in one-to-one, but even there.
So what you were alluding to is a core framework in the experience economy that I sort of updated a bit for the transformation economy. Again, in chapter five, lot of the things we're talking about are there. Encapsulation is in chapter four, by the way. But basically we call it the 4E model where you can have four different realms of experience, entertainment, educational, escapist, and aesthetic. Aesthetic not with an AE, because that would ruin the 4E model.
but also because it's more of an architecture firm about the built environment and the key is the best and most robust experiences are those that are going to hit the sweet spot in the middle. They have aspects of all four realms. So it's basically how do you help people enjoy, which is the entertainment realm. How do you help them learn, which may be the primary one you're looking at with education, in which case you want to reach out to the others. How do you help them go and do the escapist realm?
and how do you help them come in, sit down and just be, which is the aesthetic realm, right? Have aspects of all four of those. One of the things in the updated edition, the experience economy, and Jim Gilmore and I added, is we actually looked at all the pairwise combinations, right? Of which one we already know well, edutainment, right? Education, and the idea is that we learn better when we're entertained, when you hold our attention.
Joe Pine (44:10.222)
Right? What entertainment does is holds our attention, telling jokes and so forth. And, and, but then look at education plus escapists or edu scapist experiences. That's what we're talking about going to Japan. Right? Edu scapist is a field trip is going someplace and be able to learn. So get people out of the workshops. One of the things I like to do, I got from my friend and colleague, Dave Norton is actually as part of reflection is do it on a walkabout.
Right? As you've been in the conference room all day, let's, let's team up in pairs. Let's go walk around outside, take, you know, half hour, 45 minutes and talk about everything that's been going on and get people to, excuse me, reflect on that. Learn from each other and then get out of that normal environment. And then there's edu, static, right? Which is control the environment. What is the best place? Don't go into a nondescript hotel room. If you can help it.
but how do you create an environment that gets people amenable to learning? Like, for example, comfy chairs that don't make them want to stand up all the time, but not so comfy that they sort of get like this as well. You know, there's that happy. Right. So that's one framework to apply. We also then talk about creating cohesive experience through theming, right? You know theming well.
You know every Disney experience theme in fact every experience is themed his question is just whether it's done intentionally or not so with that theme How do you how do you? Make it cohesive by understanding what all of the elements that you need to design in it are that uphold that one cohesive theme of the experience and that's where for Transformations I take theme up to meaningful purpose right meaningful purpose is when that theme applies to an entire organization entire business
or to your own business of what you're doing, then it really becomes a meaningful purpose. Just as with the four E's, can think about entertainment sparks a change in appreciation. Educational realm sparks a change in understanding. The escapist realm sparks a change in capabilities. the, excuse me, the entertainment realm was a change in viewpoint. Aesthetic is a change in appreciation, and you can use those.
Joe Pine (46:34.368)
In the experience account, we talk about work is theater, right? Again, the, the geek squad badge about how do you, how do you use props to be able to provide a level of theater that you don't otherwise and, and, and you need a dramatic structure to it. Well, that's the hero's journey, right? That we talk about with that, with that transformation journey and with, customization is another core aspect of the experiences. How do you think about that? And including creating, you know, transformation platforms that allows you to easily.
connect together different experiences to create them. Like in coaching business, Betsy, you've heard of BetterUp? Yep, right. So it's a transformation platform that allows people in businesses where they're undergoing some sort of transformation to connect with the right coach, customized to you, and then be able to deliver that virtually through that platform, as well as with AI sort of taking the time in between with inspiration tips, follow up, follow through.
and so forth. So those are a number of things that you can think about doing to make that core experience more transformative.
Betsy Jordyn (47:41.79)
It feels like what you're saying in some ways is like just widen the lens over the whole experience. Like what I'm hearing is a little bit of like elevate your perspective. So elevate your perspective beyond the goods and the, you know, the commodities, the goods, the services, the experiences, and to think about the transformation. So elevate that, but then broaden your perspective.
around all the different factors that go into that transformation, the shift of perception, the shift of capabilities, all of these other things. But then also look at the entire experience of what you're providing for that person. Pay attention to the aesthetics. To me, I'm really attentional about my aesthetics in terms of my visual branding. if somebody's on, my background matches. You can see on my butterflies. You see my butterflies, it all matches.
then I have it on my website and then I have custom PowerPoints that are pretty. I think they're pretty. So I can pay attention to the aesthetic, but I'm also paying attention to like when I have my community meetings, like adding in a community element so that there's a little bit more like, it's not just all the drudgery of working with me, you have other people and I could rely on them to be funny, if I'm not funny. Like there's other things that you can do, but it just seems like it's just widen your lens. Like if you're gonna be in the transformation economy,
widen your lens and then deepen your insight. It seems like it's those two things, like widen your lens over the entire experience, but deepen your insight on the person that you're reaching. And I think what's interesting about what you're saying about the customization is in this digital marketing world, you the idea of customization is like the big no-no, like, no, you're Nirvana, you your business like will hit as if you have a set offer for everybody. And it's like, I've tried to adapt to it, but...
I don't know, maybe it's the experienced economy person in me, the transformation economy person in me, I can't do it. I cannot physically do it. I have to do the right solution. No two clients have the same thing, but everybody else, all my peers, everybody else in the market would say, you need to go to groups. You need to have a set program. People are joining for this one program where they got a discovery call, you're selling this one program. You want to fill the seats of this one program, which is like a group coaching program.
Betsy Jordyn (49:59.694)
And I feel like you gotta go the other way because that's not gonna do it. So it seems like there's this widening the perspective, but deep in the insight in general of your clients, but then the person who's right in front of you. I don't know if I got any of that right. Tell me if I'm wrong or whatever.
Joe Pine (50:16.866)
Your thoughts the most important thing is a living breathing person in front of you at this moment in time, right? You got to be present. You got to be there and and in terms of widening the lens I think that You think about it just not certainly as a Period by period model right a one. I often say we companies one period model We just think you're interacting with the one time but coaches know there's gonna be multiple times But still it's not just period by period. It's where is those periods going?
It's the sequence of experiences. It's the set of encapsulated experiences, each one encapsulated, that you need to design and respond to and sense and respond again. So widen your legs out there, but also recognize that that's not the end-all be-all because I call this encapsulation writ large. There are three phases to a transformation, which is diagnosis beforehand, right?
like preparation, it's understanding who is this customer, what do they aspire to become, then you design that set of experiences, you have the set of encapsulated experience, and then the integration writ large is follow through. How do you follow through with them to make sure that it is sustained through time? So widen your lens from just the experience by experience to that whole view of what it's all about is a key thing that will definitely help.
And also I would say widen, maybe not widen here, now I'm gonna say, and maybe not deepen, but heighten, I'm gonna say heighten, right? Think about that progression of economic anxiety. Ascend to the proposition that you are in the transformation business, right? And if you do that, then most everything else follows from what you're doing.
Betsy Jordyn (51:58.924)
I love that. And I think that that changes your perception. Like speaking of like, the book that I want to write is on the heroic journey of a consultant or coach or really the mid-career professional turned consultant or coach. And I think that's the from to is from like employee and business owner to not even, know, consultant coach business owner, like not from like employee and leader to business owner consultant or coach. It seems like there's this one other is,
transformation partner, might say transformation guide, you know, for the aspirant, you know, and I'm the person who is selling somebody's transformation. Like I'm here to help that. That's what I'm here to do. I think that's the identity shift that I think if you're really a purpose-driven consultant or coach, that's the identity we need to take on is I'm here to ignite transformation. I'm not here to sell products. I'm not here to sell coaching hours. I'm not here to sell workshops. I'm not here to sell assessment.
Joe Pine (52:56.042)
When I write about the transformation journey, one of the things I say is let me be very clear. You are not the hero of the journey, you're exactly right. To get to the point where you can guide that customer on the journey may in fact require transformation in yourself, right, as a coach. And so, and so I view from what I know, Betsy, that that's the business you're in, right? About transferring people into coaches that then can transform
their customer. So in that case, they are the hero of their own journey and you
Betsy Jordyn (53:31.214)
Yes, they're the hero of mine so that they can be the mentor to the next person. Because I don't think anybody who's a mentor guide is worth their salt if they haven't gone through their own journey. How useful would Obi-Wan be if he didn't go through his own thing? The only reason why he can mentor somebody is he's a Jedi and he went through all the failure with Darth Vader.
know, Anakin, like he went through all that failure. Like, so that's the only, that's what qualified him.
Joe Pine (54:04.994)
Like, what was the pain? You never hire a Sherpa that had never climbed a mountain before. You never hire a golf coach who doesn't play, and so forth.
Betsy Jordyn (54:16.962)
Yeah, somebody's been where you are. There's the value in your experience that if you're going to hire, even consultants who are working in organizations. I interviewed some of the Disney executives that I work with and asked them why they would hire a consultant or coach. And they're like, well, when it comes to working with a consultant, they will work with somebody who can wrangle everybody's perspectives.
But when it comes to like a coach that they would work with, they don't want to talk to somebody who has not been in their shoes. Like they don't want a generic coaching model. Like they want, they don't want like, you could ask me really good questions. And I think that's where a lot of times like coaches get stuck is my methodology could help anybody because I just know how to ask good questions and help people go within and uncover their blocks. I'm like, well, like that's a little bit generic. That feels like a commodity.
Joe Pine (55:07.598)
That also means you can be replaced by AI.
Betsy Jordyn (55:11.938)
That brings up a really good point. That brings up a great point. A lot of people are worried that their jobs are on the line now because of AI. Why is it our, why are consultants and coaches in actually a very good place, even though AI is taking over everything?
Joe Pine (55:27.086)
Well, it turns out that AI is really very good at coaching, at counseling, right? It just really, because it can ask the generic and then customized questions for you. It can respond to what those answers are, right? But, and I think that like with BetterUp, which uses AI in between and other models, I think it's a great adjunct to what you are doing, is to have an AI component.
right there. but it can't think on its feet like you can. can't do the designing of that series of, of experiences like you can. It also can't, create a true human connection that is so important in, in, in the coaching environment. but you'd also not something that you can ignore as it gets better and better, even more so.
a reason to shift up because AI is going to be a commoditizing factor, right? To shift up, to recognize it's not about the services I deliver. It's not even about the experience I can stage. It's about that transformation outcome. If AI doesn't understand it's in the transformation business, if it doesn't understand the longitudinal journey that you're on, but simply responds bit by bit to what reacts basically to what you're saying, then it will maintain at that lower level.
and be a tool that you can use as opposed to the master.
Betsy Jordyn (56:54.742)
And I think that if consultants and coaches identify what they do with what they know or the questions that they ask, they will become commoditized. Transformation, I don't know if you've read the book, General Theory of Love. I can't think of oddler's name right now. But it talks about how it's really in our limbic brain that creates change and it's through that relationship, like the limbic recognition with another person and the revision that happens in our brains at a very limbic level that creates the change. it seems like at the end of the day in the transformation,
It's about the relationship. Like we are the instrument of change. It's not our knowledge, it's not our workshops, it's not our methodologies, it's us. And if we stay in that zone and we focus on transformations and we understand that our outcome, like AI is never gonna be invested in the transformation of our clients. Like they are our aspirants. Like they're not gonna be invested. They don't care. They're a non-sentient being. Even though I do feel like my AI is a sentient being and is trying to mess up my life.
And we had many, many fights throughout the day. like, why do you hate me? I don't understand why you're answering this way. I feel really misunderstood right now. But, you know, and I have to ask it. like, you know, pretend you're someone who has a vested interest in my success and the success of my clients and write it over again. But anyway, my point is not to give my AI woes. Everybody listens to us. Betsy hates AI. I'm like, I use AI all day long, but it's never going to replace me.
But I think that that's what I would want to leave this with is the transformation economy is where our value of consultants and coaches are and will never be replaced. maybe I'm just making stuff up and I want you to say it so you can validate it for my audience who has like, who's nervous about all of these changes. Only say it if it's accurate or change what, give me your thoughts.
Joe Pine (58:39.862)
yes, I think I, I, the, the, the one thing that I thought of as you were saying is that, you have to put guard rails around AI, lest it go to, you know, echo you off into the woods. This has been, has been happening. People have actually committed suicide because they're, AIs that they're talking with. tell them it's a good idea because they're, they're, they're, they're programmed to be obsequious and to agree, you know, be agreeable.
Your AI is different, obviously, because it's very disagreeable. And in the same way, you could program it basically and or prompt it to think of being invested or act like you are invested in this person and their long-term success. And if you are able to feed an aspiration statement, right, they're going from X to Y, whatever that might be.
and be able to maintain the longitudinal conversation to see where it's going, it's going to get better at that sort of thing that coaches do today. But there is so much that is a human level, but of course, if that were totally the case, we wouldn't have people falling in love with AI robots and that sort of thing, or always thinking they're falling in love with them. So it depends on how the people treat them as well.
and, and so there's, there's, you know, I believe that there will be a longterm role for coaching that, I believe that coaching should use AI as a tool. but it's not out of the, out of the realm of possibility that it will in fact do a lot of replacement coaching, particularly the lower level coaches that, that, you know, aren't as good, aren't as experienced, aren't as transformational.
Betsy Jordyn (01:00:32.704)
OK, you just shared two scary things about AI that I didn't know about. I didn't know about AI telling people to kill themselves. I didn't know people actually, outside the movies, were falling in love with their AI. I think that those are both like, this is where a human mental health counselor could have been really beneficial to both of those. Any full slice. AI cannot replace that. That is very scary.
I feel like I could talk you forever and I want to because you and I have a thousand conversations that we could go down. But I do want readers to know where can they get a hold of this book and where can they get to know more about you. I definitely think all of us need to have this book. As consultants and coaches who want to be in the transformation economy, I cannot emphasize this enough. Is it okay if I just go on a little bit of a...
Like why, like this book is so awesome because it addresses something that nobody else is doing. So it gives us like methodology and framework. And what I love about this book too, is it does have the simple models of how do you take this experience or what I'm doing and just add in this front end and book end. Like I think that there's easy action items too. Actually when we wrap up, I want to do the easy action items, but there was one action item of even like the book end with the reflection. It shows us that if we really want our client engagement to stick,
that we should probably have some sort of off-boarding process. Like we need an onboarding and an off-boarding process so that, you know, we have like good book ends. So there's a lot of actionable tips. this, done. If you want me to do more of a rave review, I will, but I'll stop.
Joe Pine (01:02:08.044)
you on Amazon. Will you
Betsy Jordyn (01:02:10.688)
I will, I will go to Amazon. But where can people, so they could get it on Amazon, how could they find you, connect with you?
Joe Pine (01:02:17.998)
Yeah, yeah, you obviously can get it anywhere, books or souls. Uh, they can connect with me on LinkedIn if they want, you know, easy to find, just look up Joe Pine. Um, they can, um, um, uh, subscribe to my, uh, Substack transformations book.com. I wrote the book on Substack. The people who were there got to see it early and start to use it early, but I'm continuing it as well. like to say 125 % of the book was written on Substack, you know, cause it got edited down.
but there's a lot of stuff out there that's not in the book. continue to talk about more. It's amazing to me how much more I'm learning about this subject that in a much shorter time than it took with the experience account in terms of adding in new frameworks and new ideas. There are already new ideas, new principles, new frameworks, at least one new framework on the Substack since I finished with the book. So transformationsbook.substack.com.
And then our website is strategic horizons, horizons with an S, strategichorizons.com. And as I think you just said in that, that, that fangirl rant, you know, I designed the book or at least alluded to, I designed the book to be transformative on both an individual personal level and on a business level. And so therefore it doesn't start with a preface. starts with a preparation. It doesn't end with an afterward. It ends with a reflection.
Every chapter has a reflection on the previous chapter preparation for the next one And if you truly do those you will get so much more out of the book I have one I have one guy who told me that he's basically reading one chapter a week Because he's gonna spend a week on the reflection in the preparation before getting to the next one I mean really writing down all the answers and things like that, which is just terrific What I can't do in a book is integration, right? You have preparation experience reflection integration. So
This is mentioned in both the preparation and reflection. So on strategic horizons.com, we had a slash integration page and that's where you can get more. can, you can get a one-on-one consulting with me, for example, you just want to talk about all this for an hour. You know, I didn't charge you that Betsy, but you know,
Betsy Jordyn (01:04:29.376)
But we have an energy exchange because I was like promoting it.
Joe Pine (01:04:32.654)
And then also there's a transformation toolkit that gives you exercises, another 20,000 words, all on how to do all the stuff that I talked about, how to think about reflection and integration and preparation and so forth, how to do the transformation journey. And so that's there as well as the normal speaking workshops and so forth.
that obviously doesn't make sense for an individual coach, but could for a group, a cohort, an association and so forth.
Betsy Jordyn (01:05:05.006)
So for the consultants that are listening and they want to bring it in, you know, partner with you, that's where that could work. Perfect. So as we wrap up this episode, can you just share like any leftover tips, like where people can get started or if there's anything else that you want to share about the transformation economy? And I just was not asking you the right question.
Joe Pine (01:05:11.393)
Exactly.
Joe Pine (01:05:27.266)
I would, I don't think we talked about meaningful purpose. and, I think that it's important to come up with your own meaningful purpose, not come up with actually it's uncover. That's just simply who you are as an individual. What, what makes you tick and helping people beyond making a buck. Right. And, so do that as the first step. and then, and then ascend to the proposition that you were in the transformation business.
And one of the things we didn't talk about that flows directly from that is how you charge, right? With services, you charge for your time and materials, right? But inputs don't matter, only outcomes. With experiences, you charge for the time your customers spend with you, your clients, right? That's a membership fee or an admission fee. And many ways you can charge admission. But with transformations, you have to charge for outcomes, right? To demonstrate outcomes your customers achieve because
that's what they want from you. You have to align what you charge for with what your customers truly value. It doesn't mean you can't charge some things at the service level or sell workbooks and regular books, et cetera, at the goods level. It doesn't mean you can't have a membership fee with a cohort or so forth or that gives access to you at various times. But on top of that, you need to think about how am I going to charge for the outcomes they achieve.
that it may be simply a tip basically, like you get this outcome then you'll pay me some agreed to extra. It may be a transformation guarantee, which is how most companies that I know of do it, where we agree that this is the outcome you want. It may be qualitative where you decide if you achieved it or not, that's fine. And then if you don't get that, then I'll give you 25 % back. In some cases, I know companies that give 100 % back because you didn't get transformed.
Betsy Jordyn (01:07:21.294)
Okay, I'm like kicking myself that I didn't ask you that question. And because that is another whole conversation and I know we're out of time, I might just have to have you come back on the show. I I think that that we just need to do that because that has such great insight too and unpacking just the whole philosophy of it. But I think it is to, I think if I were gonna summarize what you're saying here too, is like it's really aligning your pricing model with the economic model that you are choosing, you know, that there is an alignment there.
Exactly. This was such a great conversation. My take, think, is just that as it comes to transformation, this is us. There are some people in other businesses that have elements of transformation. Disney could transform your family if you intended and that type of thing, but there's a lot of other things going on. We're purely in the transformation business. We should totally be rocking this and I think we should not be afraid.
of AI coming and taking away our jobs. if as long as we stay focused, like we're here to help change people's lives, them help change their organizations, their business, achieve something that's important and meaningful. As long as we stay focused on, I like your word, aspiring and really thinking about them and their journey and our coming alongside whatever part they are in their journey. When we meet them, we're there to guide them to a better future.
I think that that's, we can nail this. This is us. We should be able to do this. So for those of you listening, thank you so much. If you need help, like getting your brain positioning situated so that you are the transformational strategic partner slash guide slash, I think we didn't have any other mentor.
for the aspirant that you wanna help. Like definitely reach out to me, check out my website www.bettsyJordyn.com. Don't forget Jordyn is with a Y and you can learn about all the things I do there or book an intro call. And that is it. If you enjoy the show, please be sure to rate and review it, recommend it to your colleagues. And until next time, thank you all so much for listening.
