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0:00:00 - Marty Greif
It is a spectrum. It is not all men are this way and all women are that way. That is not a reality, but there's a spectrum. Some people are more emotionally connected, some people are more physically connected. There's a spectrum and when you understand how the people on the spectrum communicate and there's different communication styles that are appropriate for different people when you change your communication style to reflect how the other person receives information oh my God, the magic happened.
0:00:44 - Betsy Jordyn
So welcome everybody to this week's Enough Already podcast. I'm your host, betsy Jordan, and I'm very excited because today we are gonna be talking about websites and not just websites we're gonna be talking about website conversions. So one of the things that I know as a business mentor and somebody who helps people with websites all the time on their messaging, their copy and their visual design is there's this myth that people have, which is my website is just nothing more than like an online brochure and it's not really something that I could actually attract and convert clients with. And that is not true, and that is what we're gonna unpack today. So I'm very excited to have Marty Greif rhymes with life is what he informed me on my show and he is a conversion expert.
So he's the president of SightTuners and he's the author of an amazing book called True Connections Relationship Marketing in the Digital World. And I had met Marty, I think, like a couple of weeks ago or so. I was on a webinar that he did and he was amazing. So he just showed all of these teeny, tiny little tweaks to a landing page and how he was able to take that and dramatically transform a client's results and I'm like, okay, I've got to get this guy on the show and he's one of the kindest, kindest, kindest business experts I've ever met and I want him to have the show for you as consultants and coaches, because we need to bust that myth. You can attract clients 24 seven on your websites, and so he is there to help us.
Now, if you are completely clueless and you're like all right, betsy, that's cool that you're talking about conversion, I don't even know where to start. Head on over to my website at wwwbetseyjordan. There you'll find a bunch of freebies on that page and you will see my website blueprint and a blueprint that you can use to get started on writing website copy. But if you want your website to convert, you will love this episode with Marty. So, without further ado, welcome to the show, marty. Well, thank you, betsy.
0:02:44 - Marty Greif
After that introduction I could just say go to Betsy's site and and look at how she writes, because, as you and I talked about this, your messaging was perfect. So so, folks, betsy asked me to take a look at her website and we jokingly call this the ugly baby review, and you might go, what? So we sit and we talk to somebody about their website and we point out all the things that are wrong on it and we call it the ugly baby review, because nobody likes to be told that they're wrong. Nobody likes to be told that their baby is ugly. I mean, the joke is, we all know there's ugly babies. I mean, that's where ugly people come from. No, not us, just really.
0:03:27 - Betsy Jordyn
0:03:28 - Marty Greif
But yeah, no, we jokingly like that. But seriously, when I was going through Betsy's site, the messaging was so spot on. I can't tell you how many times we have to work with clients on messaging because they do what we call the opera school of marketing. And so what is that? It's like me, me, me, me, it's all about me. I don't care about you. And Betsy doesn't do that. She made it all about the visitor. So folks just go look at her site. She does it really well. So, all right, that's number one on conversion rate optimization hit list. It's about the visitor.
0:04:09 - Betsy Jordyn
Okay, first off, I have to just thank you so much. Like you know how sometimes, like a near an entrepreneur, you do all kinds of things and you don't have any bosses or anybody telling you you did a good job. When you said that, it's like oh, thank you, but I implemented a couple of things that you suggested already little tweaks. So I changed, like at the top bar, where I changed it to free strategic clarity coaching call or free strategic call and I changed another page. So I've implemented a couple of things already and I've already got a couple of new people. So thank you to that and that's why you're here today. But I would love to back up and talk a little bit about your background. Like, how did you go? I know you started off in marketing, but how did you become, like this conversion expert? Like, where did your philosophy come from?
0:04:55 - Marty Greif
Sure well, the philosophy comes from places that are kind of unexpected. The philosophy comes from, I would say, three things that have happened in my life. I was director of product marketing for a software company. I had just started with them. I reported to the VP of marketing and within a month he quit, and I wound up reporting directly to Richard, who was the chairman of the board, and Richard. At the time I thought, oh my God, he and I have nothing in common. He is like this old dinosaur, cause at the time I was 30 and this is 30 something years ago and he was in his fifties and I thought, oh my God, he just doesn't get it. You know, in hindsight, maybe he wasn't so old, but anyway.
0:05:43 - Betsy Jordyn
No, he wasn't old. No, at the time he felt good. He just I know, yeah, it's funny.
0:05:49 - Marty Greif
But yeah, it's funny how that all those extra years changes your perspective, right?
0:05:54 - Betsy Jordyn
I know right Like 50, so young yeah yeah.
0:05:58 - Marty Greif
so yeah, I literally was 31 and one day there's a knock at my door and this guy comes in and he says hi, my name is Phil Sanborn and I'm here to help you with your communication problem. I looked at him and I went what communication problem? He says well, dick, well, richard, actually went by Dick.
He says Dick says the two of you are not communicating, so obviously we have to help you on your communication problem. And I went okay, he said so we're going to spend two hours every Tuesday for as long as it takes to improve your communication problem. And I will tell you that I went later on that they were paying him $250 an hour and this is 30 something years ago. That's a lot of money. So obviously Dick saw some value in me and he wanted to invest in me. But the first week comes and I'm working with Phil. And then the second we came and I'm working with Phil and we're improving things. And on the fourth week I said to him I says you know what, phil? I said I guess I do have a communication problem because if Dick and I are not communicating, he's really not going to change. So it's really up to me to learn to communicate better with him.
And he stopped dead in his tracks and he said Marty, most people never get there in their lives and you got there in a month. He said you should be really, really proud of yourself. And so he said let me just rephrase what you said and I'm going to say to all the audience. Forgive me, this is direct quote Right from Phil. I will never forget this. He said, marty, you may think this is all a pile of shit. He said but you are in Dick's shit and you're playing in his pile and someday you may have your own pile, but right now you're in Dick's shit. And I just laughed. And he laughed and we spent the next five months working on improving my communication skills and it was all about the recipient. And so, as a manager and as a marketer, I realized by focusing on the messaging and the communication on the audience, it had a massive impact. So that was the first thing that happened. Fair enough.
0:08:27 - Betsy Jordyn
That's really powerful and I think that there's a couple of things that my listeners are going to appreciate is that aha, I think from my consultant and coaching business owners, they're going to look at it and say, yeah, that is a really good aha, that's great, but even more so, you really validated the power of what we do as consultants and coaches, that not only did somebody come in and get brought in to help you with communication with Dick, that you were able to create just such a lifelong transformation, and I think that's really powerful and really validating for my audience. So thank you for sharing that story. So that was thing one. What's the other ones?
0:09:03 - Marty Greif
Well, you know, but I'm just back to thing one just for a second. We're going to talk about the other, but you know, it never occurred to me. But yeah, phil was absolutely a coach. That's what he did for a living. He coached mostly CEOs at C-suite and I wasn't, but they paid for me to go through his coaching anyway and it really did change my life. Without Phil's mentorship and coaching, I never would have achieved half of what I did. So you know what, and I never thought about that before. But you are absolutely right, that is the power of coaching and mentorship, right? So, wow, another aha moment, right?
0:09:41 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, and you know what's kind of cool too is that we can continue on. When you talk about talk about putting the person in the spotlight, you know Phil didn't go in there and say let me tell you about my five step methodology of how we're going to do it. We're going to work on your communication skills. It was still about you, you, you. He didn't do the me, me, me. When he was working with you, he did the you, you, you created that transformation, led to that aha, and now we're back full circle, where now you're on my show and you're going to be helping the future Phil's be able to be more effective in landing people like you.
0:10:15 - Marty Greif
Yeah, perfect. And I'll go a step further. Phil had such a dramatic impact on my life that even after I left that company years later, I stayed in touch with Phil and I worked with Phil on other things. I loved Phil, all right, and so, anyway, this doesn't decide, all right. Number two, and everybody on the call should have read this book already, and if you didn't read this book, I'm going to say this shame on you.
Okay, it is how to win friends and influence people, by Dale Carnegie, and I read that book twice a year, just like you're supposed to. And that book was also life changing and it helped me again with communicating with people. And the premise of the book is and this is going to sound familiar it's all about them. People are in their own little worlds and if you focus on them, guess what Good things happen. And that book, while it is so old that Dale Carnegie wrote it when dinosaurs walked the earth, the valuable insights in that book are still valid today. So I would strongly urge you to do that, and so I wrote a book, as you mentioned, true Connections, and that is really my way of taking what I learned from Phil and from Dale Carnegie and from one other source.
In a minute we'll talk about and applying it to digital marketing, because the world may have changed. We may have cell phones that look like a Star Trek communicator and we might have iPads that look like the things again in Star Trek. All of these things that were science fiction exists. The world may have changed, but you know what People haven't. So go read the book. I'm begging you.
0:12:10 - Betsy Jordyn
I love that principle. First of all, I love the fact that you're bringing an oldie but a goodie book that's back to the forefront because there are timeless principles. You know, I like what you're saying is that people may feel like overwhelmed, like how do I bust this algorithm? How do I figure out how my posts could show up on LinkedIn more and how do I get organic search and all of that stuff, and it seems like just because the mechanisms of, like digital marketing is a new marketing itself, the, the, the field may evolve, but people aren't evolving. From that standpoint, we are who we are and so the best way to win, no matter how marketing evolves like maybe you know, with AI and everything else it still goes back down to the relationship and that we're relationship. People and people you talk a lot about in your book about people are fundamentally selfish. Oh yeah, and I'm wondering how that all fits in with what you're saying here is that you know this is the way we are, just as humans.
0:13:05 - Marty Greif
Well, it really comes down to and this ties into the third book also but we are literally animals. I mean, 50,000 years ago our ancestors lived in caves and they, you know, they sat around the fire and they they were worried about, you know, safety and security and food and shelter, and, and you know, we still have those basic needs. Unfortunately, those needs are not met everywhere in the world. Still, you know, we're you talk about first world problems versus third world problems. I'm sorry that still exists. But for now let's talk about, you know, basic human needs and let's talk about being hungry and thirsty. When you're hungry, you don't eat all the food until it's all gone or until you've satisfied your hunger completely. You eat until thirst is more important than hunger and then you start to drink a little and when your thirst is quenched not maybe completely, but now you're a little hungry you go back to eating. And we've all been in these days where we're eating and drinking and then we're a little tired. So the tiredness and sleep is more important than eating or drinking. So we only need to satisfy all of these basic needs to a certain level.
And if and we've all done this why? We're animals. This is how we're programmed. These are just basic instincts. And what's really interesting, these basic instincts go up there's a psychiatrist, maslow, who talked about the, the different pillars, all the way up to self actualization. And at the top we're self-acquisition, where you are looking at people who give the charity or are sacrificing their life. Well, those are all still animal instincts. As you solve the base level of things and they become commonplace, which again first world versus third world, as you move up the pyramid up at the top, as long as the other things are starting to take care of, we then give the charity or do whatever. Well, why do people give the charity? And this I can not mean to insult anybody on the call, but the reason people give the charity is because they're either assuaging some guilt they have or it makes them feel really good.
0:15:21 - Betsy Jordyn
It's all about them.
0:15:22 - Marty Greif
It's all about the endorphins that go through their system, because we're animals I keep saying this and we are. Everything we do is based on that. And when you understand those principles which again are in my book also, that's where you start to realize that when you understand other people, human behavior and what they need as somebody who is potentially a coach trying to attract new business, your website and your messaging all has to be focused on them, solve their problems, because people in general are selfish. Now, the third pillar, the third book that's in which you're, in which you're alluding to, is by Beverly DeAngelo. She's got her PhD and it's what women want men to know, and this is about 25 years ago that I read this book, and I remember reading this book and it's a big book, and I read the book and I'm in the first 70 pages of the book, and so, before I say this next thing, all of you need to listen to the next five minutes. Don't get insulted by what I'm about to say. This is one of those triggering events. I'm just letting you know in advance.
Ok, all right, first 70 pages and I'm reading it and I went oh my God, women cannot possibly be this dysfunctional, right? And I went and I talked to some of the women that were in the company. I said, do you do this and do you do that? And they go oh yeah, we do this. I'm like, are you kidding me? And they're like, no, this is how we think, this is how we act.
And I went back to the book and I continued reading and I went oh my God, men can't possibly be this dysfunctional, but we are. So here's the thing we're actually all dysfunctional, and men and women, and it is a spectrum. It is not all men are this way and all women are that way. That is not a reality, but there's a spectrum. Some people are more emotionally connected, some people are more physically connected. There's a spectrum.
And when you understand how the people on the spectrum communicate and there's different communication styles that are appropriate for different people when you change your communication style to reflect how the other person receives information, oh my God, the magic happens. I will tell you, when I read that book, it made me a better husband, a better parent, a better employee, a better employer. Ok, I was a better friend. Well, it even improved my love life, and we're not going to talk about that today. But my point being is, when you truly understand communication, it is life changing, and so all of these things that are marketing oriented and conversion oriented are really boiled down to the principle that it's about the other person, it's about your website visitor, it's about your client, it's not about you, and that's the basis for, I think, any success I've had.
0:18:46 - Betsy Jordyn
I love that you took all of these learnings and you just applied everywhere in your life. I think that that's one of the things that I think is really cool. Like when you're growing in one area, it grows in another area. So if you make the client the hero, one of the things that somebody might be listening is, like well, marty, what I do is I can help any company, I can help anybody who needs a coach, anybody who needs a consultant. What would you say to that person? Because I think, as a messaging person, I find it really you can't come up with messages that get into that person's heart and mind, like if you're talking to everybody, you're talking to nobody, but that's just me saying it. You're an expert who's been doing this. What would you say to someone who's struggling with that?
0:19:31 - Marty Greif
Oh well, I have to tell a story, pepsi.
0:19:34 - Betsy Jordyn
I love your stories. Yes, please.
0:19:36 - Marty Greif
So I was the brand new VP of marketing for a software company and we called the entire management team together and we spent two days working on our messaging and I had the whiteboard and I was writing this, that and the other thing, and, and the president of the company kept saying, well, we do this, we do this and so, and at the end of two days I turned to him and I said so let me just net out what you've been saying for two days we do all things for all people and we do it better than anybody else. Is that about right, anyway?
0:20:09 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, that's right.
0:20:10 - Marty Greif
I'm like no, we cannot use that as our marketing message. But we spent two days and these people were all convinced that everything they said made complete and total sense. It was insane. We wound up talking about what are the clients? Look at us, for you know, and it took two days to get them to go from the me, me, me, focus to the you, you, you focus. Oh, it was painful. I still haven't recovered from that.
So we turned it into who are our clients and who can we best serve? And yes, while we might be able to serve lots of people, why are we fighting to struggle to serve these three types of people or these five types of companies, when really these one or two groups are so in my sweet spot? That that's who we should be targeting. And, and it really comes down to and this is for coaches and you know, consultants you matter too. So, yeah, you can go get business anywhere potentially, but you really should be working with people where you enjoy it. What are you going to enjoy? You're going to enjoy working with a certain type of person. You're going to enjoy that they have a certain problem that you can help them with. If you do that, whatever that grouping is that segmentation. You will be more fulfilled, which means you will provide more value for your clients, and it's a win-win.
Before this started, I told Betsy I fired a client today. They were just unrealistic and, frankly, just unpleasant to work with. I'm sorry, my team is more important than that. So when the client said, listen, I'm not sure this is working, I'm like, yep, you're right. Goodbye. It wasn't even a question. Yeah, because if the team's not happy, they're not going to do good work for everybody, not just that one client. So it's the same thing for you guys. Get you down to what works.
0:22:18 - Betsy Jordyn
I like what you said too. It's not just about the person, but it's a problem. There's a lot of problems that consultants and coaches could have, but when I think about the problem I like to solve, I like working with people who are turning their previous career into their business, because there's a certain set of problems, because I personally went through that nebulous transition, but where my superpowers are is what you mentioned, thank you, which is the messaging, and that's the problem I want to solve. I don't do everything that relates to a business. I'm not going to help people with Facebook ads, just like maybe I could learn it, but that's not going to make me excited.
There's a lot of things that I could do, and this is where I talk to my clients. All the time is like there's your shit you ought to business, and then there's the one that you really want, and the one that you really want really does have a person that has a particular problem that you are motivated to solve and that makes it easier to even convert people. But how does that translate to somebody writing copy online? Because they might say, well, that's good messaging, value proposition stuff, betsy, but what about like? What does this have to do with my website. Why do I have to be clear?
0:23:25 - Marty Greif
Why do I have to be clear?
0:23:27 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh my God, they might wonder that.
0:23:29 - Marty Greif
Okay. So again, at the end of the day, it's about communication. If you aren't clear and make it easily digestible for the people visiting your website or reading your marketing material and they have to think and try to figure out what it is you do, you're probably not gonna get them as a client. Think of it this way Before somebody reads your marketing materials or your website or whatever you're doing, you have no idea what kind of mood they're in they might have before they come to your website. They might have had a fight with their spouse, the dog might have peed on the rug, one of the kids did something that just makes them wanna bang their head against the wall. You have no idea how much patience they have. And every time you're not clear and your messaging isn't clear and they have to read and figure it out, you're providing a cognitive load or creating cognitive friction and you're frustrating them. And what happens when you frustrate people? They go away. Don't let your visitors go away. That's why you have to have clear messaging. And again I'm gonna go back to.
I looked at Betsy's website and I was blown away by the quality of the messaging. I have never had someone show me their website where I didn't have a word to say about the messaging. I was so impressed. I have never felt like that before. So clarity in messaging is paramount to gaining new clients. There's no other way. I could say that a dozen other ways I suppose but at the end of the day the message is the same Make it easy for people to understand what you do and what value you bring to them. It's that simple.
0:25:16 - Betsy Jordyn
So somebody might be saying well, you know but, marty, I get my clients through referrals, like they already know me. They're just checking on my website to just see if I'm legitimate. Will the clarity of their messaging and the conversion techniques that you're suggesting have any impact for that particular person?
0:25:34 - Marty Greif
Absolutely, Because if you're looking at your website and it's supporting your sales cycle. What happens is if your website looks like who didn't run or is making them go ooh, I'm not really sure this is what we need or they're just uncomfortable in some way, shape or form. They're never gonna tell you, they're just gonna go away.
0:25:57 - Betsy Jordyn
So that's like the sneaky thing is like you get accidentally ghosted and it could be that it's like ooh, you know, I can't show anybody this website, or it's not speaking to me, or it's like it's just, you know, me, me, me over there. But it's like where am I Exactly right?
You mentioned in your book like there's three things that visitors ask themselves, like when they wanna visit your website. What are those three questions that they're asking themselves? To feel like they're not doing anything to themselves, to feel like that, you know, is that am I in the right place? Or like what are these questions that they're asking and how do you answer them in a way that somebody feels like, oh yes, they answered it really well and I like them.
0:26:38 - Marty Greif
So the three questions that people ask themselves when they answer you land on their website, and these are almost subconscious. They're not thinking these three questions, but this is what's happening under the covers. They ask themselves am I in the right place, how do I feel about this website and what am I supposed to do here?
0:26:58 - Betsy Jordyn
Am I in the right place? How do I feel? Can you see them again? Am I in the right place? How do I feel about? This website and the third one.
0:27:09 - Marty Greif
What am I supposed to do here?
0:27:12 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh, the action. So am I in the right place? How do I feel about this website and what's actions should I? Am I supposed to take now?
0:27:20 - Marty Greif
Yes, exactly right Now. What's interesting is the am I in the right place? And the question is dependent upon the upstream messaging. So if the upstream messaging was an ad, if they land on your website from an ad, if the words in the ad don't match the words on the page, you're making them think again. Remember, they might have stubbed their toe, fall with their spouse, had a kid that drove nuts. You have no idea. Don't make them think.
A better example of that is you go to a website and it says on the page you know more about our services. And you click on it and it says in 1972, I graduated from this and I did this, and then we did this. I'm sorry, I wanted to know about your services. Now you may get to the services at some point on the page, but services were promised but services were not delivered. That upstream messaging has to match immediately. You can then go into a little backstory about how you got to your services, but you have to start with more about our services. If the link said more about our services, the heading on that next page should be more about our services. Am I in the right place? Yeah, make it so I don't have to think.
0:28:42 - Betsy Jordyn
So, like, for example, on this podcast, I just suggested that you could get my website template. So maybe a better way, because I said you can go to my website where it says the downloads and find it. I could just say go to, because the URL for this website blueprint is Betsy Jordan, wwwbetsyjordancom. Forage last, consulting-website-blueprint. I think that's what it is. Let me double check before I tell everyone Consulting-website-template when they get on that landing page. I need to and I'm saying that you're gonna get a website blueprint and template I need to be able to say right there on that page, like I don't go in, all the philosophy about websites or any of that just says website template and get this. Yes, that's it, like that's. And so then, when it comes to the call to action you'd mentioned something on our conversation before like the call to action needs to be really clear. Is download it now versus submit or something like that?
0:29:44 - Marty Greif
Yeah, so that goes back to when you say submit and you've got like a form to download it. So if you're gonna offer somebody a template or a document or some research or whatever it is, most people put that behind what is known as a gated form, where they have to fill in their name and address and email and phone number and all of this stuff. But to download something honestly, they don't need any of that. And when you create forms like that and put them up on your website, you're gonna get people filling out with bogus information. Now, for example, I have an old Yahoo email address that I use when I am forced to fill out a form that I don't wanna be spammed on. So what happens? I fill out the form I put in my Yahoo email address. It says we sent you a link to verify. I go into Yahoo because I never do otherwise, and then I log in, I verify the link, I go get the thing that they promised and then I never see any of their marketing garbage that they send me. They haven't earned the right to send me anything. They've made this all about them and what they wanted. A better way to do that is just give people the thing to download, and if you provide a really, really high quality piece of information, you're invoking the conversion principle of reciprocity. You've done something for them. They will now do something for you. Now, what do you want them to do In the downloadable document?
You might have some advertising in there that says ready to take the next step, and there's a link and it takes them back to your website. At this point you can ask them for their name and maybe their email or phone or something, because you've earned their trust, and when we do this, we see that people put in real phone numbers and real email addresses because they trust you. Now, we've all seen this. How many times I know you've seen this right.
You go to a page and you see the form says name, email address, phone number, address. You're looking to make a purchase in three to six months, six to nine months and then and then and there's all the download, something right. What does any of that have to do with the download? What are you gonna do? Are you gonna call them on their phone and say, hey, did you get the email? And then, after they open the email, you go knock on their door and say I just wanna make sure that you read the email. What are you doing? It doesn't add any value to the visitor. Right Give before you get.
0:32:17 - Betsy Jordyn
So the prints okay.
So let's go back, because I think that I love that idea and I think that's part of the value of free content, you know is that you are giving value to people and then if they wanna continue working with you, like then they'll go from there. But let's go back to the three questions, cause I wanna make sure that I'm clear on the three questions that say am I in the right place, how do I feel and what am I supposed to do? So, even whether it's a website or a landing page, it sounds like whatever the messages were that got somebody to your website. So if you're saying something on LinkedIn like, check out my website and discover X, y and Z, then you need to have X, y and Z or something on the website that matches to what you're. What you want them to say is, like yes, I'm in the right place.
I think that that's part of I actually tell people when we work on the messaging to have a pain identifier section right on the homepage, like are you someone who's struggling with X, y and Z? Then you are in the right place. Like, I recommend even that language, you're in the right place, or I get it and I'm here to help something along those lines. Is that good copy for?
0:33:22 - Marty Greif
Okay, as long as there's one caveat as long as the upstream messaging said struggling with X Y Z, and they land on the page and says struggling with X Y Z, it's got a match right, because so, for example, if, if, if, let's say the thing was struggling with anxiety, that was the ad. And when you land on and we've seen this right, you land on the page and it said did you know that the average adult needs eight hours of sleep? And when you get eight hours of sleep, this improves your health in this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and can relieve anxiety too late. Are you struggling with anxiety when I land on the page, even though sleep might be? They've got a sleep program. Talk to me about anxiety before you tell me about your program. It doesn't matter, you got to make sure it matches. I don't mean close, I mean spot on matches.
0:34:21 - Betsy Jordyn
That really speaks to the importance of a lot of the people who are listening. They're not necessarily going to do ads, but they will have a LinkedIn and social media presence. That sounds like no matter what, like social media a lot of times will lead people, or people will go to a networking event and have a conversation. All of this needs to match. This is the importance of the consistency of the message, which would say I'm in the right place. That consistency of the message. I say this do that. What is the issue around feeling? What can you do to give them the positive feeling? How do you know what somebody wants to feel when they land on their website and how do you deliver that feeling?
0:35:01 - Marty Greif
So there are certain things called trust factors on a website. One of them is a phone number. Real companies have phone numbers on their desktop version of it, on the top right hand corner, and on mobile it's the click to call icon. If you're not having your phone number front and center, then they're going to subconsciously wonder how real you are, and then Well, hold on.
0:35:26 - Betsy Jordyn
I need to clarify that one, because it's not about the phone number. The feeling is I want to feel safe, like this is a real person. Safety is a feeling and the way I feel safe is things that establish the credibility aspect, like a phone number, and I think you've mentioned too, like social proof kind of things, like logos, icons of people that you worked with. That makes me feel safe. So it's not about being credible. It's not about the credibility. The credibility is about making someone feel safe. That's a really important point for consultants and coaches, because we feel like we need to establish our credibility. So we're going to give our whole list of our credentials, but what we're really trying to do is make someone feel safe that I'm somebody who delivers, I'm legit and I deliver on what I say.
0:36:15 - Marty Greif
Yeah, absolutely. And the way you do that is with phone numbers, testimonials, reviews and trust statements like join over join, dozens of coaching clients who have changed their life. That's a trust statement. Join, dozens of join, hundreds of join, whatever right? Reviews, testimonials, all of those are trust statements and you want to just mix them up a little bit. Because if, instead, you do what I see on coaching sites where it says, hi, I'm Marty the Magnificent and I've got my PhD in this and 20 years of experience, this and I've done and I've got my dissertation on this, and it's like, oh, shut up, already Nobody cares. Ok, I mean they do, but they don't. What they really want to know is, you know, struggling with anxiety. So was I, and so were the dozens of clients that I've helped. Here's how.
0:37:15 - Betsy Jordyn
Yes, so much better. Like I mean I never I have not put my like. I have a master's in organization development. When I was a consultant, I put it I had a master's degree at all those years at Disney. I don't say, you know, and I would love it if people would say at least, hi, I'm Marty, and it would be in that second person. A lot of times people would put it in the third person. You know, betsy Jordan is a world renowned consultant.
You know, with a master's degree working with organizations like Disney, versus the way I try to teach my clients and the way I try to model it is, yeah, I could throw in my credentials, but it's really a part of my story. I get it. I left Disney after, you know, I left my high profile role at Disney to start my own business and it was really scary for me. You know, it was a huge, nebulous transition and then I wound up like recreating my career, my job, and now I did this and this is what led me here. I could tell that all of that credentials stuff. But I don't have to like, throw it in somebody's face like and you were saying the opera thing, me, me, me, me.
0:38:14 - Marty Greif
Yeah, yeah, it's okay to have the credentials. You know you've got people who've got their PhD, their master's, or they've got massive experience. Those are all good things, but that's not what you lead with. You lead with what's in it for the visitor and then you can say you know, with how many years were you at Disney again?
0:38:33 - Betsy Jordyn
0:38:34 - Marty Greif
All right. So with eight years at Disney, which was a wonderful home where I grew and learned, it was scary to transition, but what I learned, all right. So you've got to Disney, you got eight years. What I've learned, all right, you know. Prior to joining Disney, you know I got my master's in this and that helped me at Disney, but, interestingly enough, I found that that was my calling to help me with this. So you throwing it in the story and it's not like let me slap you in the face with a dead fish. It's part of the story. One of the things we tell people all the time is give me some love, give me love on the website. And, as you heard me say this, people want to feel safe. They want to feel like you care about them and it helps if you actually do care about them. That's like you know, don't fake it, actually care about them. But if you care about them and it comes across and you provide that love, good things will happen.
0:39:34 - Betsy Jordyn
I love that. So they want to feel like so this sounds like what the feeling that somebody wants to have is I want to feel secure, that you're legitimate and that you have. You have the proof to back you up. That's in the form of phone numbers, social proof, testimonials, client spotlights, all that kind of stuff. They want to feel like you care about them, and that is related to how you even share your credentials in that sort of like engaging way, that it's about you and making them feel that way. What's the third element is what to do. So how do you convey to that person Like this is what you're supposed to do next.
0:40:16 - Marty Greif
Okay, so that's simple. I will, but I just want to put one last bow kind of on that. How do I feel?
0:40:25 - Betsy Jordyn
0:40:26 - Marty Greif
And your website does this, so this is really a good thing, right?
0:40:29 - Betsy Jordyn
So you're really curious what I'm gonna say now, aren't you? Yes, I could tell.
0:40:35 - Marty Greif
All right. So when somebody lands on your website and look at it, you want them to feel like, oh my God, I found her, my life would not be complete without Betsy, right, and when you look at Betsy, say she evokes those feelings and your website needs to do that too. You want people to go, oh, this is the guy, this is the girl, this is the person I need. Thank God, I found them. If it's not doing that, especially for consultants and coaches, then your website's not doing it justice All right, and I think what's so powerful about consultants and coaches is we do have this amazing ability.
0:41:16 - Betsy Jordyn
Just like Phil was for you is like he really transformed your career and your life in so many different ways. Tell that story and help somebody visualize that because what you're doing matters Like stop hiding behind all the fictitious stuff that we think impresses people but doesn't Like. A lot of consultants and coaches have a lot of. They use a lot of aspirational language, a lot of methodology, either on their website or they'll use like some sort of like detailed, detailed analogy to explain what they do. Like I have one client who's very committed that he wanted to talk a lot about sailing and how coaching is like sailing, and I kept trying to tell him like it's too much work. You're giving the client too much work to understand the metaphor, to understand how that relates to them. How would you speak to someone who it's like I have to share my five step process, or I have to share this extended analogy about how I help somebody navigate some sort of choppy waters of leadership? What would you say to that person?
0:42:17 - Marty Greif
Well, I gotta go back into story mode. So I was years ago when I used to be technical. I was a systems engineer and I went on a sales call. Sorry, probably need to resale that because the thing made noise in the background.
0:42:36 - Betsy Jordyn
It was okay because I took an advantage to drink here. Nathan, you're gonna have to cut this part out. Hold on a second, hold on. Okay now, nathan, you're gonna have to cut out that whole thing. Go ahead.
0:42:47 - Marty Greif
Years ago when I was a systems engineer for a software company. I remember we went to AT&T to sell them a software solution. It was $500 million and we went through the presentation with them and they said this sounds great, we'd love to move forward. And the salesperson because I wasn't the salesperson said to Marty, tell them about whatever it was. And I said, okay, ray, and so I told them a little bit about it and I finished and they said all right, marty, tell them about this next thing.
For the next two hours we went from me telling them things to actually saying Ray, I think they're ready to move forward with the contract. To saying to the AT&T guys so, guys, do you need to know anything else? Or we're ready to move forward, ray, they're ready to move. We can just know, marty, they need to know about this. No, they don't. Okay, it's not about you. It's whatever information they need to make the decision and whatever you think they need. You're wrong. Unless you've actually talked to these people, including the ones who didn't go with you, to find out what they needed to make a decision, your opinion doesn't matter. I have no other way to say it. The only people that matter are the people that are gonna hire you and give you money. Find out what they need to understand and in what format, so that they can make a decision to move forward with you. I get a little upset by this one because this drives me nuts, but it's so true, right? So it's about the principle.
0:44:35 - Betsy Jordyn
Like Marie Forley always says, clear over clever wins all the time. And I would say that to them is like, just be clear, like don't give them an extended analogy, don't do that. Just say here's your problem, here's you, here's your problem, here's me, here's a solution. Let's jump on a call and talk. I think that ultimately for a consultant or coach, all roads have to lead to an inter-call. It's better to get somebody on a call than it would be to even sign up for the lead magnet. How do you, what tweaks could someone make to their website to increase the number of people who book a call or send out an email? Like how do you make that happen? For on the website, to make that action happen?
0:45:13 - Marty Greif
And that goes into the third question, which is what am I supposed to do here? So perfect segue, all right. So if you want someone to take action, you gotta let them know what's in it for them. So Schedule a free consultation. Do I really want to schedule a free consultation, or do I want to speak with an anxiety expert? Do I want to speak with a time management expert? Do I want to speak with a messaging expert? What am I going to get out of it? Free consultation, excuse me, well, I gag. No, nobody wants to spend time, but what are they going to get out of it? And on next to the free consultation button, where they're going to schedule it, tell me what I'm going to get.
In 30 minutes or less, we'll identify point A, point B, point C, point three schedule speak with the expert. Schedule your time with an expert and those things that they're going to get. Make those check boxes not full points, because check boxes are good things. Oh, that's a good thing. It's got a check next to it. I know this sounds a little silly, but we've tested it at work. So make even the call about them and what they're going to get out of it On our website. We have speak with a conversion expert and when they go to click on it it says in 30 minutes or less we're going to do this, this, this and this and this, and we make it really clear what they get out of it. And we don't even sell on those calls, we just actually just provide value and help them and people go oh my god, if that was free. What do we get if we pay you? Right?
0:46:55 - Betsy Jordyn
I love that Like, so I've made so. Basically, you shared that tip with me when we were on our call and I had changed my schedule page because of that and so I would. I'd love to get your feedback. But I did that and I think that is more powerful. So I changed it. Instead of saying book a call, I would said at the top the CTA is free, strategic clarity coaching session. And then and so people want to check out like how I changed it.
You can look at betsyjordancom For slash contact, which is my old one, and then I did betsyjordancom slash schedule that's the new one. And what I did is I said in 45 minutes, we're going to craft your purpose of profits roadmap or something like that. What to expect. Speak with me. I put my name because I'm the one who they're going to talk to and this is what you're going to get. I'm curious to see, like, what the conversion is going to be, because I just changed it. But I do feel more proud to send people to that because I am more clear that it's a hugely valuable thing to jump on a call with me. It's not just like I'm going to go and sell you or it's not an intro call or it's not a just you know, it's not that kind of thing. Is that a good? Did I do a good job based on what your feedback was?
0:48:10 - Marty Greif
Yes, the only thing I would say is conversion rate optimization is about best practices, but it's also about measurement and testing.
So, like a free call. The word free may or may not help you, and I don't know which would be better. And the only way to know that would be that. And I'm not saying you're charged for it, I'm just saying the word free. Sometimes the word free scares people, sometimes it's necessary, and every audience is a little different. So that's the kind of thing where you would actually have to measure it to see what the difference is, and so. But in general, betsy, what you said is absolutely the right direction, absolutely the right direction.
0:48:51 - Betsy Jordyn
I love that, though, because there is no perfect recipe. So when you're dealing with conversion, it's not like somebody like you could just say I'm going to give you the magic formula that for sure will work. We're going to take these principles, we're going to apply them, see what the market does and see how it responds, and then you could change it. You know, like I know for sure, when I changed my CTA button at the top of my website from let's Chat which was what I had for a while to book a call it increased. I'll be curious to see if this increases, and if it doesn't, then I'll try something else. So it's not like there's this magical recipe that we all have to follow and it's going to be perfect.
0:49:28 - Marty Greif
No, exactly right. And your website actually let me back up, it's not just your websites. Everything you do leaves a trail. Now, on the websites with analytics, it leaves a really nice field that you can look and see. Not sure.
0:49:43 - Betsy Jordyn
Even when you talk and sometimes you don't like it, like, oh no, I know. Yeah, that's fair, that is fair.
0:49:48 - Marty Greif
But just because you don't like something doesn't mean you can't learn from it.
0:49:51 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, that's sure.
0:49:52 - Marty Greif
The number is important. So I'll give you another example Conversions. Conversions aren't just on the website, but if you talk to 10 people and one of them signs up, you've got a 10% conversion rate right from lead to sale. And if you change how you talk to those 10% people and you wind up with three people, you went from 10% to 30%. Everything you do can be tracked and measured and you just have to be intentional about what you do and look at how you're going to measure it and you should be measuring your conversations. And when you have a conversation, you should be measuring. Not only did they sign up for whatever the next thing is, but did the conversation last 15 minutes or 45 minutes? Is this getting through? Them not getting through? When am I losing them? You want to track?
0:50:54 - Betsy Jordyn
everything and not be afraid to experiment, because you'll never know what. You're going to jump on and say, oh yeah, this really worked. Ok, so let's talk about your book. Let's talk about the specifics. So you just are really good at saying here's what people will get and we're creating that match and the messaging. So tell the listeners where to find out about your book and what will they get when they purchase it. And why should these consultants and coaches Like? Let me re-ask the question why should consultants and coaches buy your book? What are they going to get out of it and where could they find out more?
0:51:34 - Marty Greif
So they can certainly find out more. The book is on Amazon so it's relatively easy to find. It's True Connections Relate to Chipmarking the Digital World. It's on our website in the about us area under my name.
0:51:51 - Betsy Jordyn
Could you give the URL please?
0:51:53 - Marty Greif
Sure For you anything. As a matter of fact, we might actually have a URL that you're going to laugh at this. This is something because I heard you doing this. If you type in sitetunerscom forward slash book, it just takes you right to Amazon, To our page on Amazon with our book.
0:52:20 - Betsy Jordyn
Perfect, super easy.
0:52:22 - Marty Greif
Yeah, we try to make it easy. Again, you don't want to add cognitive friction. You try to make it as easy as possible when you do anything, all right. So, with that said, what's in the book?
The book really is going to talk about focusing on the visitor.
It really does take all the things that I learned from Phil, all the things that I learned from Dale Carnegie, all the things that I learned from Everly the Angelus and all of the experience that I've had in creating marketing programs that actually turn into real clients, and so it probably gives away about 70% of what we do for a living. We're keeping the last 30% so people actually pay us, but 70% is still a pretty good number and it really does teach you a little bit more about how to think about the visitor, as opposed to what it is you think you're doing or should be doing. It's instead saying let's focus on your visitor and let's answer the three questions. We talk about the three questions in the book. We talk about mobile versus desktop, we talk about user intent and aligning here. Another thing that's key to this and this is in the book when you align three things the user intent with the experience they have and your goals in the middle of that three circle Venn diagram is where your money is.
0:53:54 - Betsy Jordyn
0:53:55 - Marty Greif
And that's in the book too.
0:53:57 - Betsy Jordyn
You know what I love about your book I've been obviously I'm spending some time in your book getting ready for this conversation is for my audience of consultants and coaches. They're naturally relationship people. Relationship marketing is a good fit for us and it's just a matter of like applying that and that's what I love so much about even your whole idea of like relationship marketing in the digital world. You know, why is it that people who are good at relationship skills like why are we gonna win in comparison to other people who are not? And how could somebody take just do a few tweaks with their relationship skills to just get that much better with how they are doing digital marketing?
0:54:38 - Marty Greif
Oh, absolutely. The joke I make is and I speak in, for God's sake, I'm just all the time and I've got this little shit, I'll call it where I basically say somebody comes to a website and they fill out a form and it says name, email address and all that stuff we talked about before. Well, if you were in person somebody, would you say to them hi, what's your name? Do you live around here? How much money did you make? Okay, what's your phone number? Would you do that? No, it's creepy. And so you know, don't be creepy on your website.
We also tell people don't be creepy in person, but don't be creepy on your website. And if you wouldn't do it in person, don't do it on your website, don't be creepy. And we joke about that, but it's a real thing. People think that because they put it on the website, it's they gotta have this facade. No, be you, be real. Build relationships, all right. If you and again, when you meet people, you're friendly in person, you shake their hand, you look them in the eye, you learn about them, why are you doing this on your website, right?
0:55:48 - Betsy Jordyn
It's the same thing and even like when it comes to like a webinar, like that's how you and I connected is like I was drawn to. Like the you're really great best practices, but just the way that you are just so real and then jumping on a call with you, it's like you're so real, like what you say is who you are. Your website is friendly. You have like little cartoon pictures of you know everybody on your team and yourself. I'm like, oh well, that's fun, you know, and that fits your personality. You're not doing that because you just it doesn't seem like you did this because you saw it somewhere else and you imitated. It Seems like, well, we're kind of like a you know, informal, friendly kind of group who's gonna help you have a lot of fun while you're working on your conversions. Like that's so different, like I would much rather work with somebody that has that personality than when you're dealing with you know the other ones where it's just like so analytical and you know like there's no person behind it.
0:56:41 - Marty Greif
Which really goes back to the one thing that we tell people on their website Everything you do should be intentional. Don't just use a feature because it comes standard in the technology use. I was like, oh look at this cool thing that it does. No, everything you do needs to be intentional. If you're intentional with people in person, be intentional on your website. It's the same exact principle.
0:57:08 - Betsy Jordyn
And I love that you just answered the question I was just about to ask you. So thank you so much, because I like to end with, like, we talked about a lot of things and once the number one thing and you just gave that tip. The second wrap up question I would love to ask you is is there anything else that you would wanna tell me or tell our audience about relationship marketing, about websites, about conversions, about anything else that you would wanna share? And I'm just not asking you the right questions.
0:57:36 - Marty Greif
Well, the one thing that we didn't talk about, but kinda hinted at, is that everything we do leaves a trail, and so for your website, there are analytics, and if you don't have your analytics set up, then all you're doing is guessing, and if you're guessing you can't be intentional. So, everybody on the call, make sure that you have analytic. If you have a website, be sure you have analytics set up and that it's tracking correctly, because you will learn so much about what people are actually doing on your website and it will inform, not maybe just your website, but it might also change the way you speak with people.
0:58:19 - Betsy Jordyn
Wow, I love that Like be intentional on your website, be of service, use the analytics to track it and if you have that, you've already taken a lot of steps to increase your conversions.
0:58:32 - Marty Greif
0:58:33 - Betsy Jordyn
That's wonderful. I could talk to you forever. I mean it's like I'm like disappointed, I'm like oh man, we're done and I have so many more questions. But thank you so much for being here and for everybody who's listening. It's like as we wrap up this episode, definitely I would highly recommend Marty's book. I've read it and I rereading it again because I read it for one level just to get the good tips to get ready for this session.
But I'm going back through to get my punch list of things that I want to take my apparently good website to the next level. So thank you so much and if you are nodding along and you are loving this type of content, I definitely encourage you to hit subscribe wherever you're listening so you can catch more episodes that I offer in the Enough Already podcast. Send me an email if there's more visitors to my show, like Marty, who's awesome. Don't forget that free website template that I mentioned, the easiest URL to go to, I would give you the download one. But since Marty just told me that I should need to be more explicit about what I promise, go to wwwbetseyjordancom. Forward slash consulting hyphen website, hyphen template, and so that will get you there, because I have to deliver on my promises, as he suggested. So thank you again, marty, and until next time. Thank you all for listening.
Transcribed by https://podium.page