Betsy Jordyn (00:00.514)
So are you consultant or coach and you are growing your business? And so far it's been great because you've gotten a ton of referrals, but you're kinda wondering, I don't know if this is gonna be what I can do over the long term. Well, find out what to do about that on today's episode of the Consulting Matters Podcast.
Betsy Jordyn (00:27.64)
And welcome to the Consulting Matters Podcast. This is the show for purpose-driven consultants and coaches who are ready to own the power of what they do, position themselves to get their impact and income. I'm your host, Betsy Jordyn And today I'm super excited to bring on the show my client and very good friend, Cori Crawford von Oss. And Cori and I knew each other like decades ago, and we reconnected.
When I went to or ac actually I was presenting at an ICF event, I thought she was coming because I had a stellar topic. but she was coming to reconnect with me, which is awesome. and we've been working together for the two things. Well, we have been working together on elevating and clarifying her unique brand positioning and messaging. And believe me, Cori has a very unique brand and positioning compared to other consultants and coaches.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (01:06.402)
Yeah.
Betsy Jordyn (01:21.48)
And so we've been working on it for the last few months. And so she's finally got her website relaunched. And I wanted to bring her on the show to talk about her journey of not just like getting to initial clarity but refining it, but doing it in such a way with an eye towards how do I grow my business and attract clients without relying on the referrals all the time. So without further ado, welcome to the show. Cori, super excited to have you here. Thank you, get.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (01:48.194)
Betsy, thank you. You know, I know that you probably have some wonderful plans, but I want to comment on something. because a couple months ago you were having your mentors on your podcast. Do you remember that? Uh-huh. And I just want your viewers to know that when when I met you, Betsy, it was around 2008 or so, and I had had some upheaval in life that was not
really as I had wished. I had been living in Europe. I loved the work I had to do there, but there was some challenges and I ended up coming home and my dad was in a health thing. But in that time frame, you walked me through probably your initial work of how do you connect your history, a person's history, with what we're made to do in this world. And you definitely set me on a trajectory where
I just want you to know I do that with people on a regular basis. You know, it was kind of my first time to be with a coach or therapist or whatever you want to call it. You were coaching me at that point. But, you know, many types of professions need to have this role where we say, okay, who are you? And what does that say about how what you're made to do on this earth? And a lot of my work with people is helping them steward the story that is written in their life. But really you, you introduced me to that.
And anyway, just been a wonderful journey to say, okay, we are made, we're wired together, we don't make ourselves, but we're wired together and there are specific times and needs in the world that we are here to be a solution for the world. And anyway, hats off to you, Betsy, and thank you for doing that with me.
Betsy Jordyn (03:34.84)
Thank you for the reminder that you were probably my very first brand messaging and positioning client back in the day before I even had words for it. And what I think is really interesting is I love that work that we did. Like when we started doing the work now, I went back and got into all my files. I'm like, that was like some pretty good work. But I love that work. But then in this in-between place, I wound up starting a consulting business. And so it took me a while to even go back to
You know what I felt like I was made to do. So I went on that, you know, like I don't know, the desert kind of wandering, you know, and it's not that I didn't like my consulting business, I did, but it's kinda interesting. So thank you for sharing that 'cause it kinda brings us full circle and and you brings us back here.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (04:21.068)
And I love when you and I met, it was really about I was seeking out what is my calling in life, right? And I wonder how many times your listeners need to be reminded that this idea of brand is really about the design that's inside of a person. Yes. And I just want to say to anybody who's listening that's been thinking, should I engage Betsy? you should. And one of the things that Betsy will do is help you.
Get better in touch with what's in you. And like if you're a prospective client and you're like, I've been afraid to say I want to do something, well, she will probably suss that out of you. Like, and that might be an uncomfortable moment, but it's actually a very safe and a very treasured set of circumstances. So anyway, just don't don't be hesitating. Get on Betsy's calendar at least for a consultation. You at least deserve to hear what she wants.
Betsy Jordyn (05:14.846)
That's the money that I I paid you to say all those night just kidding. Checks in the mail for the for the recommendation. Well for
Cori Crawford Van Oss (05:22.894)
Awesome. I know it sounds like that. And it's gently, gently, genuinely from my heart.
Betsy Jordyn (05:30.894)
Well, I am really excited to have you on the show to talk about like your story because it is interesting, you know, that we have this long history because there were a lot of seeds of what you're doing now that were there. And I think that that's an interesting thing. So we're like, I don't know how many years in the you know, from the past, but the seeds of what you wanted to do is not like all that different of where you led where you landed now. So for those who don't know you, look
Can you share just like briefly like what you do and why you were at that crossroads and what what led to this other crossroads where we reconnected last year?
Cori Crawford Van Oss (06:12.0)
Yeah, I would love to do that. And that's a privilege. So most of my working life has been engaged in what I call mission. And for your listeners to understand, I am a Christian mission person, but I would love it if they would set aside ideas of religion for the moment, especially if that's not their cup of tea. Because the heart of what I do and the war heart of what I help people do is to bring about change in the world.
based on like we know, okay, something is needed. People need help, people need a service, people need an intervention, whatever. And so people in my world are looking at how do we do that in a way that brings people along. So before I met Betsy, we actually worked at a the world's largest agency for this. I was there at that agency for around three decades. And
I very much was in an environment where we were stimulated to be the best we could be and dream dream the best that we could bring into the world. And there are many things that happened right around the time that I met Betsy, but what I'd been hoping for, you know, it's one of
Betsy Jordyn (07:19.532)
Betsy one point or Betsy two point Like the two point Okay, the two on version. Okay. The two
Cori Crawford Van Oss (07:23.254)
LC one.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (07:27.95)
Two thousand eight version. Right. And so all of a sudden I was not in the part of world that I love to live. I had come back to the US and I had to figure out what's up. And I actually at that time contemplated doing what I'm doing now, which is on my own doing the work I want to do with people outside of an organization. so before I'm talking too long, Betsy, how am I doing at answering your question? You want to redirect me?
Betsy Jordyn (07:54.016)
No, no, no. You're doing great. So basically, in essence, you worked for an organization that tries to do good in the world. So you were part of that big organization. You were there for three decades. You were living somewhere else. And now you're kind of at this place like, I'm not living there anymore. My role is changing. What do I do next? And so when we were doing our initial conversation, it was around like what's next. And you had the seeds that you might want to become, you know, more of a leadership and ministry, a leadership coach and a ministry consultant.
in the future but at that point in time, you know, you didn't go down that path or you did go down that path.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (08:31.734)
Well, actually, at that time, you helped me carve out a space within our very large organization where I was given room to do that. Entrepreneur. Yes, exactly. So we brought coaching and consulting into one of the major divisions of our mission. and I actually was on a global team that was helping several continents worth of people do better at coaching and consulting in order to understand local needs in order to better.
Betsy Jordyn (08:40.864)
so you begin.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (09:01.602)
To bring better services. So I did do that for a period of time. And then I don't know what to say about all the intervening times, but about three years ago, I made another jump where I really stepped out of trying to do that under the umbrella of an organization, believing that God and myself were ready to just be with people and figure out what they need and help them move into that.
Betsy Jordyn (09:30.744)
So you decided to reconnect to take the leap and do it all on your own. So when we reconnected in in Betsy two point time period last year, you had been in business for a couple of years at that point in time for yourself.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (09:43.808)
Right, right. I had been my own boss for a couple of years. And I do that in the nonprofit world. I'm not you know, I have a board that I might keep myself accountable to. But you know, our my way of doing things for many years was to work through the relational network that I have. And I have thankfully a very broad network. But right before you and I reconnected, I had been
really hitting the limits of what I could do through my own referral base. And I was very aware and I'd had people that were like advisor, mentor people tell me along the way, like, what you're doing needs to be published in some fashion. It needs to be public in some fashion. Because someone who needs what I might bring to them, if they can read a book, an article, whatever, you know, that is going to accelerate
their solution. so that's where I was with those words in my head. Those words had been in my head for more than a decade, with me making very little progress in that direction.
Betsy Jordyn (10:53.582)
And and I think the situation you found yourself in is where a lot of people do. Like it's almost like like a year or two into business, people start to realize that I need to do something more. Like you have maybe had the seeds for longer, but the prevailing advice is always like, well, just work your network, you know, just you know, keep being consistent with your network. And it sounds like for you, it's like, no, there even if I have my network, I still need to be able to
manifest my ideas in a way that other people can access, which might not not just like get you clients outside of your network, but oct actually deepen the relationship with potential clients who do come through your network.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (11:34.882)
Definitely, definitely. I have already seen that as I give more attention to writing, communicating, people get a better understanding of what I can do with them and for them. And you know, especially as a coach or consultant, like when I'm on the clock with a client, it's their at it's their time, it's their goals, right? So there's not so much time to download the things I've been learning or researching.
That's gotta be in a different space.
Betsy Jordyn (12:06.83)
So what was it about the process of like, okay, so I need to start creating content, but you kinda you had a website out there, you know, you had some messaging. Why is it that in order for us to work on building your content marketing strategy, we needed to back up and work on your brand positioning and start over? Like what was what what wasn't working with your current messaging that we needed to refine it? there were
Cori Crawford Van Oss (12:33.228)
There were many things. Many things. I would say base there was a certain level of fear. And I think for many of us who want to bring something into the world, for me, I would talk about it a bit abstractly because there is a fear in me of getting too personal and too close or revealing too much, especially to a stranger, right? So if somebody's gonna look at my website.
Betsy Jordyn (12:37.195)
at the
Cori Crawford Van Oss (13:02.434)
Does the content on my website, does that come straight from my heart? Or does a marketing person help me write it in a way that like generates SEOs? So in my case, I'm speaking in extremes because I had a wonderful marketing person who really captured my mind and my thoughts, but I was happy to be distant, whereas the work that I'm doing is really an extension of who I am. And so I need to get a little more courageous, a little more personal, a little more close in.
I would say that's one of my biggest things. it's a little because I'm I believe that I can help people who are leading change in this world and I want to direct work directly with those visionary, those idealistic people who are bringing that change. It's scary to say that because the the pool of people who do that, it's a small pool. And for any of us, that thing we can specially do, it may be a small pool of people.
So it's like, okay, do I knock off all the opportunity for anyone that might be similar? Yes, but that's all that getting personal and getting small takes courage.
Betsy Jordyn (14:10.738)
And and I think that that's a myth that there's not that many people in that area. You know, like I think when you get specific, you know, it's not like you're saying, I wanna work with visionary leaders of mission organizations who have red hair and have blue eyes and, you know, and like and like to watch, you know, a T V show that you like to watch. Like we're not getting that specific. You know, but there are a lot of if you just even look in Orlando, you know, where we are.
Like there's you can't even shake a stick at like there's like mi like there's like mission organizations left and right. You know, there's like nonprofit organizations. Like when you start really seeing it, like then it's like, my gosh. But I think it's like the the perception of scarcity is is that part. And I think that there's this whole idea of clarity around like it's not even just who I help, but I think where you were were really working on is like what is the problem that I solve and getting explicit about the problem.
You know, 'cause you could say, I help like visionaries, you could say I could help visionary mission leaders like create explosive growth. You know, but that's not the part. And I think what what big part of our work together, you were you're also getting a doctorate and you're in a doctoral program and you're working on your thesis at the same time. Like we were talking about your thesis topic and how that relates. And a lot of your passion is about, you know, about toxic
You know, not you don't want to create toxic. You want to help people heal from toxic environments. So it was like we also had to find a home for what you really were going to be talking about, which begs the problem that you solve. Is that you're you're solving the problem about creating growth without burning people out, without creating the toxicity to sidestep this the toxicity that you found yourself in in these organizations that grow too fast or grow too aggressively, you know, and kind of like
cap out the people who are doing the work and you wanted to avoid all of that. And I think that that is something that could resonate. But I think that was another part. Can you can you speak to that?
Betsy Jordyn (16:13.036)
Am I right? Is that correct? Or am I framing it properly and you
Cori Crawford Van Oss (16:16.566)
You're right on and you said it so well. I'm like, what is there left to say? you want me to speak to this dynamic of letting people be resistant.
Betsy Jordyn (16:25.402)
Like I think it was like the dynamic about like how do you deal I think this is like finding a home for for like the problem that you solve. And I think that it's an inaccurate thing if somebody s who's really good with SEO is like somebody who's good with SEO, like really this magic of SEO is the long tail keywords, is what they call it. Is like it's not like somebody like, why am I so tired? You know, like lots of people are searching it for it for something like that, but like
Why am I so tired at midlife? Or something that's more specific, like now less people. And so what you want to be able to do is like go out and put something out there that lots of people are searching for, but not a lot of competition. And I think that you are moving into a space where there's not a lot of competition that so that's just that's a little sidebar on SEO and the misunderstanding, but also like.
Trying to bring in for you the balance between like, okay, this is the problem. This seems like a smart SEO kind of stuff, and this emerging passion for what I want to study in school and do a research paper on. This brand has to find a home for this new idea. So it's like my my brand has to be relevant to what I'm trying to birth at a research project as well.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (17:43.958)
Sure, sure. And I think the heart of what you're talking about is how people function in a state of constant growth. And you know, in the world around us, we have a lot of drive to grow profits, to grow personnel, to get more out of the people who work for us, right? And growth is deeply positive. We all need to be transforming and growing.
And our individual growth will actually result in output growth in most situations. in a in a setting where we're serving people or a ministry or a school or a medical situation, when growth is only met, you know, is only brought to us by pressure, pressure, do more, do more, then we stretch too far and we break, or burn out or become disillusioned.
Betsy Jordyn (18:39.382)
Yeah.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (18:44.086)
And the I believe that the more important space to find is to find that space where we can where our internal growth generates our external growth. so personally if I'm transforming and growing and adding my skills or adding perspective, that organically creates even more outward growth. And that is a perception that's we like that.
But it's hard to believe that and be there. So many of us, especially people in service or ministry situations, there is something of a pressure on us to bring pressure to other people. Uh-huh. And so we create the opposite dynamic from where people can grow. We create a a situation that drains people if we're not wise.
Right. Any of us can create safety and create dynamics for growth, but we have to really choose on that. And sometimes that means like in leadership, we carry the burden of the pressure, or we find a way to share the pressure in a way that people can carry, right? So those are I think those are some of the funky dynamics because of course, does someone in a ministry want to grow? Like someone in a business wants to grow? Yes, we want to serve more people. But we need to be healthy as we do that. I think that's
I think that's like where w you and I wrestled with ideas and approaches and things like that or even how to describe that. And I love your words. You would say it's an inside out growth.
Betsy Jordyn (20:16.802)
I feel like that you're hitting us something even bigger though. I wanna I wanna thought experiment with you on this for a minute. Is that you know, we went the you open up this conversation with like understanding our design, you know, and and aligning our life to our design. And I've been thinking a lot about this whole idea like pressure to do more. Like, you know, everybody knows like I have you know, Claude and AI Claude and I are, you know, we're having some challenges. We're in marriage counseling right now. but you know
you know, but there's this like there's some of it is is I think that like I'm at you know, maybe it's like a phase of my life, it's like just because you can produce more, does that mean we should? Because our bodies are designed for a certain rate of change, you know, a certain pace of change. And and I wonder how much of the problem that we're having is like inside out and growth is good, but can we even grow faster than our human design is even designed to do it? Like just because you can get an ant an answer faster, you can get this done quicker.
Is that really the the outcome, you know, that we really want? And what are we missing in terms of like the like what is real growth? Like sometimes like I think with like with writing, for example, you know, like the process of writing and really clarifying your ideas is you wrestling with the concepts. Like every draft you do, it's about you. Like if you just get to the answer so quickly, you know, your ideas aren't gonna be good. You're not gonna have anything break, you know, like it's it's that part there.
And so when you're dealing with your clients, you know, who are actually putting on themselves these these goals that are so aggressive, you know, and pressuring themselves to grow. Like how do you how do you help them balance it with like, well, you're as a human, you know, God designed you to manage this level, not this level. Does that make sense? Does my question make sense? It
Cori Crawford Van Oss (22:11.362)
Does. I hope what's coming to my mind in response is meaningful. So being in the Christian world, we talk about multiplication of people. Now that's taking people out of a personal realm. and it could be, but you know, it's like go and make disciples. So what I've learned from God or from you, Betsy, I would take that to someone else, I share it. And then this way we multiply the values that we have through people, right?
Betsy Jordyn (22:41.398)
Okay, so you're talking about like what Katie Anderson might say as a chain of learning is I take something, I learn it, I pass it on.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (22:49.9)
Right, right. So there's a multiplication effect. This is relating to growth. So you know, in in my world in Christian mission, we think about the locations we can be at. We think about the people who can carry the work that's done in different places, et cetera. So there was a season a couple of decades ago when someone I really respect wrote a book about rapid growth. And it was as if some of the growth could be accelerated.
Betsy Jordyn (22:50.957)
Okay.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (23:19.84)
And there was a debate that rose over that. And the way I know to respond to that, because that was a topic for us, and we would have to be like, okay, you don't go faster, you don't pressure yourself necessarily to do more. But if you think of like a woman who's pregnant and a baby starts with literally two cells, and then those cells multiply and the cells multiply and the cells multiply. Now, by and large, it's easy for us to understand that every cell is gonna have a steady rate of multiplication.
The difference, the point when the baby becomes visible in the mother's stomach and when the baby gets to where it needs to exit the mother and come to life itself is because the number of cells that multiply make it so large. And it kind of feels like a lot of times in the first five months you might not even notice that a woman's pregnant. But then there comes a point
Betsy Jordyn (24:13.083)
no, you know.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (24:16.405)
well you notice. And you're tiny.
Betsy Jordyn (24:19.854)
You no you notice all kinds of parts of your body notice. They all tell you. There's lots of parts of me.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (24:26.624)
Talking about other people looking in, you know? And but you know, it's it seems as if it accelerates. It seems as if growth accelerates. Because when more cells are multiplying and duplicating, you know, then acceleration it's like inflation. It it looks like it jumps up when really in some ways it's growing at a steady rate. So this is part of what I think people need to grasp is that we growing a person.
Growing a value takes thought, takes time. We organically we want to nurture that. But you know, where it seems like it accelerates is when more and more people understand and go with something, right? So I don't know how if that helps address what you asked me, is what comes to my mind in terms of that growth response.
Betsy Jordyn (25:18.006)
I think sometimes we just put like these aggressive goals and it's not helpful. Like using the pregnancy example, it's nine months. It is what it is. Like you, you know, you're you can't exercise your way to make the baby grow faster. You know, and I think that there's a certain thing that there's certain rules of like this is how human nature is. Like when I think about like my biggest growth accelerators, like there's all these hacks that I would try to do. Like I was like, you know, I'm a super spiritual seeker kind of person, not even just like the Christians or like whatever, you know, like I did a bunch of things.
You it's like, so I'm gonna go like to this weekend intensive and it's like, I'm gonna walk away healed, you know, they're gonna cut the cords or do all kinds of things. And it's like, you know, like it's you get like maybe a like a momentary thing. Like really the biggest healing accelerator I've ever done is when I went on my sabbatical. You know, when I like I literally did nothing for like seven months, you know, or I, you know, and I did the silent retreat. Like it's like sometimes in doing nothing because like growth is happening and I think that when we're trying to help people like so looking at your
your purpose and what you're doing with your branding is like I wanna, I wanna grow, I wanna help people grow without, you know, inside out, but it's also respecting the authentic pace of growth. You know, and yeah. And it feels like it feels like we needed to get some of these messaging down because I think that that's where a lot of the toxicity that you were researching for your research project is like it's this artificial rate of growth.
And we had to bring it into the brand positioning so that when you write your content, which is where you're now at the part of the process where it's like now you're gonna start exponentially writing more content, all of the ecosystem had to make sense. And it and I think that's and and we needed to bring in that part too. It's like, you know, if the like the inside out doesn't mean that you can make yourself grow faster. So now I have a hack to get you out here. It's like we need to respect it.
Right. I think this is why I always say go like go slow to go fast. You know, it's like because you just have to kind of like respect the process. And I think that that's why it took us a little bit too, even to work through your brand positioning.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (27:23.39)
Absolutely. I love the way you say that and the the go slow to go fast. Like fast is is just you have more men momentum. You know, I think about the work I do with my clients in the realm of resilience and burnout. You know, you don't someone who's burned out doesn't change the everything in their world in one day. You take one step. You know, and as a coach, then I want to help cultivate their habit in that one step.
And one step of health breeds another step of health, breeds another step of health. And so momentum comes by maintaining that edge of moving into the one step. And maybe we take a second and a third, but you pace it. You pace it so it becomes habitual rather than, my God, you know, I'm so stressed out by all these changes I have to make.
Betsy Jordyn (28:12.43)
See, now I'm torn on where to take this episode because I want to go down this path. But I made the promise that this is about like how do you get your brand situated so you can like actually start attracting clients outside of referrals. So because I think that this is such a deep-rich topic. Like I think this is so important for consultants and coaches because I feel like we set our own pace, we set our own calendars and we are trying to grow so fast where it's like.
But I can just take like you were using that example, like take the one step. Like we can't eat the elephant all at once and we could take the one step. I think this is such an important topic. I might have to bring you on for a separate episode around like the, you know, how do you how do you how do you right pace your growth, you know, and how to do that. But so to so there's like a couple of things that were going on for you. So there's there you had a seed many, many years ago about like you really want to do
you know, leadership coaching and or, you know, admission consulting and you wanted to do this the a while ago. It really came into fruition at the same time, maybe some of those experiences of dealing with some of the toxic work environment, you know, you needed to have a little bit more pain underneath your belt, you know, in order for you to have like a really good, you know, authentic brand story. You know, and so now you're at this other part where it's like, okay, I'm going to get this doctoral program. My branding needs to
you know, kind of accommodate that. So we use that as part of the context for your help. We had another big breakthrough with your brand positioning that I think also sets you apart, which is really tapping into your gifts around wisdom and tapping into the fact that you're not really a co like you're co you do coaching, but your essence of how you show up with your client is a lot more of like a trusted advisor. Can you talk about like that moment of that aha of like
I might be someone who does coaching, but I'm not a coach. I really am this person who's more of a trusted advisor. Can you talk a little bit about that moment?
Cori Crawford Van Oss (30:14.028)
Yeah, I don't and I'll say I'm I I might miss the moment, but let me talk about that dynamic. So I wanna give the background that when I started into the coaching realm, I had been doing one-on-one leadership development with people probably for a decade. So and some of what I do in terms of
saying no to pressure to expand and right sizing growth is because I had to do that where we were. I lived in Albania, I lived in Eastern Europe. And I wasn't very popular sometimes with leadership because I would be like, no, you can't do that, because I was like, unless we grow these people with these amount these levels of capacities, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna burn ourselves out. So I was doing that for many years. when I became a coach,
in my experience of learning to be a coach, it was that trusted space. Because my training in coaching was very much about what does this other person want? What's keeping them from that and how do you unleash them to their desired outcome. you know, here we are 15 years after I got certified as a coach. And I'd say in reality, most of the coaches that we might find on the internet, they've got five steps to whatever and they're shoving a program down our throats. Now that
Forgive me, coaches that are not like that because that's not everyone. but then all of a sudden, you know, someone who's leading a mission has another boss instead of someone that's coming alongside of them. So that was one thing that I had to accept and adjust my thinking on. But the trusted advisor part is so essential because we're talking about growth from the inside out.
The only way a human being can grow from the inside out is to be in a space where they have trust, where they have emotional, psychological, and spiritual safety. if you happen to be a person who l likes the Bible and likes God, you see this in Eden. Use Eden means delight. Like shalom is a word that we use a lot to that God in indic gave to us to understand there's a there's a peace, there's a safety.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (32:29.11)
And in that safety growth can happen. And
Betsy Jordyn (32:32.704)
If you don't like God, 'cause you just said like if you like God. So if you don't like God, what's you know, what's what's the answer? And so if you're God lover, you might like Eden and the shalom. You know, but if you're a God hater, you know, you might like
Cori Crawford Van Oss (32:47.724)
allow my metaphor is what I want to say.
Betsy Jordyn (32:50.296)
What and if and if you hate God what's the word?
Cori Crawford Van Oss (32:55.616)
If you hate God, he loves you. How's that? I don't know. I'm I'm trying to be sensitive to many, many diverse outlooks. I anyway. I don't know, Betsy. What do you want me to
Betsy Jordyn (33:06.326)
So we're not saying if you know, if you're a good person who loves God, you're gonna like the instead of your bad person. I think what you're truly trying to say is in my in my spiritual tradition, there's a perspective around Eden and Eden reflects shalom. And so in the context of shalom, you can create the psychological safety that somebody can grow in. So I got your point. I just wanted to make fun of you just for a minute because it's funny.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (33:35.803)
Thank you. You're welcome. You know, taking that further, neuroscience completely proves scientifically that these principles are true.
Betsy Jordyn (33:37.782)
And you know.
Betsy Jordyn (33:45.996)
same good same neuroscience. all all all the other people who don't have a Christian traditions are like phew she could talk my language science I'll say out
Cori Crawford Van Oss (33:49.398)
Yeah, that's a great.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (33:59.662)
Of religious spaces, the concept of psychological safety was much better documented. That's true. And anyway, so trusted advisor brings a space of safety, and safety is needed for transformation. That's the point of what I'm trying to say. and so whatever it takes.
to help someone who wants to bring change into the world to experience a safe, trusted space for them to work out their ideas, work out the steps. That's that's what is needed so that there are more people bringing into the world the change that they're supposed to bring.
Betsy Jordyn (34:38.71)
I think also there was another element that was excellent. Good job. Snaps to you. Awesome. Thanks. you're welcome. Yeah. I got more where that comes from, you know. We're good friends. We can pull that one off. But I think there's also the advisor piece. Like sometimes I think like coaches are too rigid with coaching, or it's like I just ask questions. And sometimes they're like people just say, Could you just like give me your perspective? You know, or could you help me think differently? You know, and I think that the advisor
Cori Crawford Van Oss (34:43.125)
You're making fun of me.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (34:48.055)
Yeah, let's bring it.
Betsy Jordyn (35:07.392)
You know, having that word of wisdom for the particular moment, you know, where you can bring that forward without feeling like I'm viol violating my entire like ICF certification, you know, I think is an important permission because I think that there's like a coaching business, like to me, there's a B2C coaching business, a business to consumer coaching business where we work with individuals in a private kind of practice. And there's some people who might be called coaches who aren't like doing coaching.
as ICF might describe it, like they're, you know, a five step process is fine. But just like people don't know what else you're doing with the one on one. Like I'm very particular. I have a coaching business, but I don't, I'm not a coach. You know, and I think that there's moments where you might slip into coaching. You know, like you might choose not slip in, you might choose to show up as a coach, but as an advisor means I've been, I have, I have experience that you can draw from, and I'm not gonna hold back my experience
From all of those years that I was in a similar place that you are. And I think that that was like a big aha, is like because of my years of experience and my years of study, I'm it's okay that I could step into the advisory role and give somebody timely advice for their complex situation, which is a huge benefit and huge value. So we sometimes call you a trusted advisor and sometimes we call you a coach. Sometimes it's a coaching program, sometimes it's a trusted advisor program.
And they're not necessarily one of the same. It could be a trusted coaching program and a trusted advisor program, but they're they're a little different.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (36:41.036)
Yeah. Yeah. And that's important because there are plenty of people who get with me. I had one client who's just said so candidly, I need you to be the eyes I don't have. Uh-huh. He's like, You know my job and you know what's happening here. I need your eyes. You know, and in that invitation, that's exactly what I brought forward. Many of us who bringing something forward, we know what we want.
Betsy Jordyn (37:05.207)
It's our brain.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (37:08.354)
But we need extra eyes and we need we need someone who's got our six looking at the dynamics, seeing the dynamics around us that we're talking about with a different set of eyes.
Betsy Jordyn (37:19.938)
Yeah.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (37:20.984)
So thanks for articulating that.
Betsy Jordyn (37:23.17)
And I think a lot of times like who we're called to help or who we're meant to help or the clients meant for us or you know, whatever phraseology you choose to use in this moment, I I'm flexible, you know, I have a lot of different backgrounds, you know. I can I can speak to all of them, but it's really usually a an earlier version. Like who your ideal client typically is is an earlier version of you. And a lot of the reasons why we want to help that person is we want them to, you know, it's succeed in ways that that we
in in what we might have succeeded in, but without all the hassles and the pain and the struggles that we had along the way. You know, like a lot of times we heal ourselves by helping others in the same ways that we have been wounded. And so because of that is our ideal client, we have life wisdom. So holding back on that doesn't help. Like I I I'll I feel very animated with my clients. Like we're
I I'm c I could be lukewarm on my best practices, but I am super animated on my worst practices. You know, like things that things that have cost me time and money, I'll be like, you know, you can make your own mistakes, but just like for the love of you know, of all things holy, please do not make my mistakes. You know, and wouldn't I be remiss if I didn't share it? You know, like I'm very, I'm very bullish on making sure that you have your business name be your personal name.
I have a thousand reasons for it. And a lot of it is is because Accelerate Consulting Group is still on albatross around my neck. You know, that it was the worst decision I've I made and it's cost me money and I still have to pay for the stupid URL that I don't use anymore because it's all connected to my, you know, my podcast and this and that, you know. And so there's a reason why. And I I feel like the advisor in and allowing yourself to have a trusted advisor program gave permission.
And and almost like a a greater credibility is like, yeah, I can provide all that leadership coaching and all of that leadership development. I have all that expertise. But what's unique about me and why you should work with me is I've been where you are, not in general, specifically. And I think that's where it's specializing it down. It opens more opportunities, but it deepens your credibility.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (39:33.622)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it deepens our connection. Mm-hmm. Because if I'm working with someone and I happen to say to them, is that really what you want? Because I realize they may be appeasing a stakeholder or appeasing someone who's applying pressure and they want to get out of the pressure, but doing that might give up something that actually is at the core of their value structure. Like I can ask that question. Is that really what you want to do?
You know, and and and I think all any of us that are helping a younger version of ourselves, a person who's on the journey that we were on, we we can see and articulate. And sometimes we articulate that because we didn't have the courage at that age to articulate it then. You know, we needed. How many of us did what we did in the world alone without a great, you know, system of guidance and counseling? And we worked it out good. We worked it out, but
Why? Why do it alone? You know?
Betsy Jordyn (40:35.982)
That's perfectly sad. I can't I cannot add anything else. That was fantastic. okay, so so Yeah, I know. Why? Why grow it alone when you don't have to? Okay. Yeah, part of good content is you have to connect with your your words. You know, you have to act them out. But I think that was a little over dramatic. okay, so so speaking of content, so you are now getting ready to really get into content marketing. So
Cori Crawford Van Oss (40:43.708)
Total.
Betsy Jordyn (41:05.91)
You have gone through, so you're part of my content marketing accelerator or content from conversion content accelerator group right now. And you really resonated with what we talked about in the first on our first week where we talked about the different stages of the buyer's journey. You know, like how does having this deepened level of ideal client clarity help you how do you how do you think it's helping you with this content marketing strategy that you are in the in the process of putting a bow on?
You know, and understanding the different touch points. Well
Cori Crawford Van Oss (41:38.84)
Well, one, because I don't live in the world of let's use some air quotes marketing. and I could be put off by quote marketing ideas. One of the things you did with us in talking about the buyer's journey was actually zero in on the experience. Like, hey, somebody has a problem, they don't even they haven't even named the problem. Right. And so one step in the process is actually this is a problem.
Do you see how much this is eating your lunch or how much this is costing you? Like identifying the problem is one thing. And then you you helped us see the natural progression. Once you realize it's a problem, you have to decide is it worth solving it? Can it be solved? Is it important to have someone come alongside of me? And so, maybe it's because I am a natural problem solver that all of a sudden I realize, yeah, there's a lot that
That I touch with my clients where, you know, it needs to be said, do we even realize this is a problem? Let's name this as a problem. anyway, that unleashed me. Like, so for instance, right now I'm working on the topic of why does a mission leader need a trusted advisor? Well, the problem is a mission leader is always going to bring change, right? That's that's what we want. We want a better world. Better world requires change.
The human body, and this is part of my studies, the human body is designed to risk ch resist change in every in every way possible. We do that physically, we do that with our relational systems, we do that on a thousand levels. And so someone who wants to bring change in the world needs to not be alone. They need an advisor that helps them marshal it through, right? So I hope I'm answering your question, but.
somehow getting in that reality of what's the problem, helping my clients name the problem and name the importance of the solution. Yeah, it kind of unleashed me to be able to articulate realities that we face.
Betsy Jordyn (43:44.312)
So where actually do you mind if I speak into like where this fits in with your strategy?
Cori Crawford Van Oss (43:51.256)
Tell me.
Betsy Jordyn (43:52.344)
So this is a late stage article. Like this would be something like that would be much farther down the journey of like now they've already discovered that they had a problem, they've discovered it's worth solving. Getting someone else is better than nothing, you know, than doing it on their own. Now they're evaluating their options. That's where your trusted advisor article, you know, why you should have an advisor, you know, like to complete the the picture, you know, when you're working on your content is you want to have stuff all along the way.
Five reasons why your growth is stalled out, you know, and you know, what's what's your stalled out growth costing you? You know, then it's like what's the business case of change or, you know, like that kind of thing. And then you might do an article around, you know, five, you know, five ways that five types of people that you can get to help you. You know, so one could be on like you could get a a traditional leadership coach. You can join a program, you could do this, you could do that.
And then this article comes in later on with the trusted advisor, you know, and almost like the trusted advisor advantage. And if you have all of those other articles in place, you can actually link your articles. You could link all those previous articles to this particular article and kind of like it's like it becomes a cluster, if you will. So like this one's a good late stage one, but you might want to link it and then you could link all of these together because
somebody's not sitting up at night immediately, you know, like this would be somewhere they're like they're they're they might be in the process of like hanging out on your website and and reading your blog and following your newsletter and, you know, doing all that stuff. And it's like, I never thought about a trusted advisor. But if you could hook it to those other problems, you know, and that's where I think like having all of the clarity of the ideal client is what would it there's a million decisions before they decide I need to have a trusted advisor.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (45:48.203)
Absolutely.
Betsy Jordyn (45:49.774)
But if you didn't have the refinement on your ideal client, you know, I I don't know, would you have been able to map out this journey to even begin with? You know, or you might because like I think a lot of times as consultants and coaches, like we write content to like the end of the client's journey. Five ways to trust yourself. Like, okay, trust myself with what? Like that's a thousand, you know, like that's so far and removed from where I'm at, like is later on. Like how does having
you know, the understanding of like they're trying to grow and they're struggling because they're burning people. Like they're they're los you know, they've got donors and this and that, like dealing like how did that help how is that helping you when you're strategizing kind of like what what how you want to show up as a content market content marketer. Here, I'll do the air quotes. But or you know, but really it's a content, you know, I take out the air quotes. It's a it's a
It's a server of humans that you haven't met yet using the power of content. That's probably a better way to say it.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (46:54.664)
I've lost your question now.
Betsy Jordyn (46:54.934)
Sure it is, but I've How does helping ha how does deep having that time where you've deepened your understanding and your empathy for your ideal client, how do you imagine it's gonna it it is helping you as you're putting a bow on your content marketing strategy?
Cori Crawford Van Oss (47:11.084)
Well, I mean, just there's a lot more awareness of yes, we are facing this problem. yes, we're facing this problem. You know, that's all all I know to say. I'm I'm probably even too far out and continuing to zero in. But there's
There's just clarity. I don't know. You tell me. I'm not finding better words for this.
Betsy Jordyn (47:38.616)
Well, I mean, I feel like even coming up with the topics, you know, it's you know, like that even begins because you can see the world from the client's perspective. Like I really feel like that the at the end of the day, brand messaging, marketing is all hinges your effectiveness in it all hinges on empathy. Like the biggest challenge I think we all have when it when whenever we have like fuzzy messaging or we have ineffective marketing, it's like it's usually because we're all stuck on our own head.
And we can't we don't see the world from the perspective of the person that we want to serve. And if we could like flip the spotlight from ourselves onto the ideal client, it changes our ability to craft the right words, create the right content, but it also gets us out of worrying about it so much. Like you were saying, like at the beginning, you know, about the visibility, the vulnerability and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, I I'm wondering is like it going through the process of really creating with deeper empathy to your ideal client.
Is it how is that affecting your confidence and your competence in the content marketing that you're planning to do that without it you wouldn't have had what you needed?
Cori Crawford Van Oss (48:48.588)
Yeah, I definitely think it's there. I think as you're posing the question, my mind is going in a slightly different direction. What was I doing when I was in my client's shoes? I was putting my hand over the dashboard and not looking at problems. I was not admitting to myself that people were resisting and creating tension. I was trying to sa band-aid differences between people than get to the problem, right? And so in that way where we
do the things that also save ourselves. Like it's like, okay, being at this space, I am faster to name the problem. I'm faster to take my hand away from blocking the view of the dashboard. You know, I think that's how I know to say it, because it's like getting back into the moment, which is empathy, although I'm I'm I'm a more thinking person than a feeling person. So I'm I'm aware of my thought processes.
Right. But it is empathy because I am walking in the shoes of the other person. And I'm allowing myself, even my memories to go back and be more clear about the shoes that I was walking in. Cause sometimes we want to deny that we're walking through the mud. Right. So maybe just for me, I'm like I'm just aware of healthier doses of reality.
Betsy Jordyn (50:10.38)
I think that is a great tip though to remember if you can't like to if you want to get out of your head, get in your clients, a lot of times is is just to remind yourself of when you were in those shoes. It's almost like it would be great to pull up a picture of yourself from a time period that reflects who you wanna wa who you wanna work with and like put it on your computer. And when you're trying to brainstorm content, you know, it's like, well, what would, you know, forty year old Cori wanna know? You know, what what was she struggling with? What was she dealing with? And then you could really write good content.
you know, for that person, you know, and and and speak more clearly. so content is one so so if your objective was is like I want to get out of just relying on referrals, content is your ticket out. Like that became clear to you. And you needed to work on your brand positioning, your messaging, your website, and all those things to get that to get that ticket out. Are there other things that you're visualizing now that you've gone through this process that's going to help you get more clients outside of referrals?
Or relying on referrals. It's not like referrals are bad. It's just outside of just relying on referrals.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (51:15.766)
Of course. And you know, there are people that have I've already been helping that it's like, what are new tools to help them? So being in the space of creating content also like there are times when being just a coach and being aware of here's what the person is asking me to do for them meant I didn't pre-think what's the process of a certain type of growth. Like, you know, sometimes I'm training supervisors how to be a supervisor. Well, is there a process to
giving people an idea of what their job is and then how do they evaluate the person with their job and how do you keep building them up. There's actually a process there. So I do think the content is also causing me to and helping me articulate the processes that the people in my field are facing so that we can go, okay, there is a process one, two, three, right? That's if you at least have a mental map of that, sometimes you have the edge up on what needs to happen. So that's one thing.
I think I'm aware of ways that I can do webinars or messaging or even longer content spaces that's really gonna help people do, you know, what we talk about with leading mission. So I I say there's more bubbling up.
Betsy Jordyn (52:29.656)
So in some ways it's like becoming consciously competent over, you know, really what is it that you're doing with other people and codifying in a way to create more value. So potentially it's not even about getting new clients. It's about extending the value with existing clients. And so there's like that one path. And then the other path is is like if I can become more consciously competent and I can start manifesting things, I could use it and rejiggy it in different ways. Like I could put it into a webinar.
Like, you know, it it you can start speaking because now you have content. Now you can go out and get more speaking engagements. You can continue to engage people, you could be more effective on social media. Just sounds like sounds like the con the process. So this goes back to our conversation about growth. The process of really uncovering your ideas and letting them unfold will pay off huge benefits. But if you just like throw a piece of content into like chat and just
get the outcome really fast, you won't be able to go through that wrestling process that would create all this extra value. So so there. I ha we we looped it all together somehow. There you go. We did what some might call the weave. We actually did do the weave.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (53:44.462)
Awesome. Awesome.
Betsy Jordyn (53:46.446)
So okay, well we talked about so many different things. Is there anything else that you would want to share about really just you know, what you're discovering your purpose, living your purpose, and then using that information to to really connect with the people that you really are meant to work with and how to use content to break you free from relying on referrals and I'm just not asking you the right question.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (54:13.516)
Well, you've done a stellar job of asking me the right questions. And you know, if there was if there's anything that's crossed my mind that I might like to add, I think Betsy, you've heard me refer to this movie and I'm probably gonna mess up all the names, but my husband is a fan of Guardian of the Galaxy, so we've watched all the movies and all of them run into my mind.
Betsy Jordyn (54:40.163)
Yeah.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (54:42.508)
And you know, there's the raccoon character who in one of the very last movies we start to understand his superpower and his superpower came from the pain that he experienced at a young age. So I'm gonna leave out stuff so that if somebody wants to watch it, right?
Betsy Jordyn (54:58.422)
His name is Rocket. It's the best show. You will fall in love with Rocket so much. I knew Brian and I had stuff in common.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (55:04.76)
I didn't know.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (55:11.042)
There's anything to add to what we've already said, it is, you know, for Rocket, it was so scary to embrace the things that for him and his mind he cursed, those were the worst parts of his life. And those were his superpowers. And I think, I think that's actually a human dynamic that our superpowers come from the things that really were the most wounding, the most painful. And of course, hurt people can hurt people. So
We walk with care and we make sure we get healed. But I think one of the points of bravery in life is to go, okay, maybe this thing that I count as so horrible is actually the way to bring great gold to people in this world. Like right. Like opening up to that is just such an important step. And we haven't really said that in in as we've talked, but I think that's kind of an underlying reality for me, right? We all we all are rocket in some way.
Betsy Jordyn (56:09.474)
Yes.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (56:09.942)
And our superpower needs to be unveiled. And it takes being scared to let that thing be seen for many of us.
Betsy Jordyn (56:21.26)
I think that's the hardest part of all of it. You know, like if you want to be on purpose, you know, like part of being on purpose is I'm according to my design. And if you want to be on purpose, it's also making meaning out of your story. You know, like that's the purpose within the things that have happened to you, both positive and challenging, but particularly challenging because like there's deeper wisdom that you're gonna get from suffering and none of us like the suffering, but you know, it's it is the seeds of
what will and what it what actually brings credibility. It and it brings connection. It's in that vulnerability that we bond. So that's a great ad. The smoking plants
Cori Crawford Van Oss (57:01.966)
of our superpowers and we've got to find a way to embrace that.
Betsy Jordyn (57:06.914)
Yeah. And that's a hard journey. But that's an a critical one. Thank you for bringing that up.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (57:11.192)
You model that you model that well, Betsy, and I think you pull that out of people very well. So I hope more listeners will get on your calendar because they have superpowers to unveil.
Betsy Jordyn (57:24.386)
Yes, but I am much more sensitive about coming to later realization about how vulnerable some of my process is. So I promise I will create psychological safety. You know, for those who don't love God, it'll be psychological safety. For those who do, it'll be shalom, it'll be Eden. You know, I will work really hard on that. You know. So Cori, what's your what's your website address for people who want to learn more about you and connect with you, especially if they know nonprofit leaders.
administry and beyond that you would be a perfect fit for. What's your email? I mean, not your email, your web address. No, your web address. My web address.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (58:05.814)
It's all the same. It's my name. So Cori Crawford van Oss C O R I Crawford Van Oss dot com. So and my email address is Cori at Cori Crawford van Oss dot com. So I think if you can get Cori Crawford Van, the rest will probably fill in in your search. and I would love, there's opportunities there to communicate with me and I'd love to interact if if this has stimulated a thought, that would be a real treasure.
Betsy Jordyn (58:35.215)
Awesome. And also you're on LinkedIn so people can find you there as well.
Cori Crawford Van Oss (58:39.382)
I'm on LinkedIn and I'm on Facebook.
Betsy Jordyn (58:41.934)
Yeah, so Cori is a perfect fit, especially for for people who are dealing with a lot of complexity or even people who are just like brand new to leadership. And it's like, I was a great technical expert. Now I'm like suddenly in charge and now what do I do? Like so she can help leaders, but it's like it's but more specifically people who understand people who are in the middle of the pressures that are unique to the nonprofit space and the missional space and people who have to deal with volunteers and
a lot of other complexities that others don't have. So Cori is definitely a person there. So definitely highly recommend her. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I would love to have you on the show again where we could just talk about like what's the what's the right pace for growth, you know, that matches our human design. So we might save that for another day. for everyone who's listening, I'd love to work with you if you do want to get connected to your purpose. Obviously that is something that I'm super passionate about. And I promise I won't make fun of you unless I know you for
over ten years like I've known Cori. So I will only make fun of you in that scenario. But you can make fun of me back. It's a two-way banter street. So you get to do that. if you enjoyed the show, please hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any future episodes. I would love it if you could rate and review it so more people can find the show. And until next time, thank you. Thank you all so much for listening.
