Betsy Jordyn(00:00.12)
So here's the reality, clients don't pay you what you're worth. They pay you what they think you're worth. But good news, you control their thinking. Find out how on today's episode of the Consulting Matters podcast with my guest, Casey Brown.
Betsy Jordyn(00:26.712)
So welcome to the Consulting Matters podcast. This is the show for purpose-driven consultants and coaches who are ready to own the power of what they do and position themselves for greater impact and income. I'm your host, Betsy Jordyn. I'm an ex-Disney consultant who's now turned business mentor and brand messaging and positioning strategist. You can find out about all the things that I do to help my clients build thriving businesses out of their strengths and their passions and the best of their careers.
on my website at www.betsydJordyn.com. Don't forget Jordyn is with a Y. And if you're watching this on YouTube or on my blog and are wondering, what about this bandaid on my face? I had a little potential cancer cut out. I'm just fine. So don't worry about it. So let's get into today's topic. So we're at the end of the year with my final episode of a season that ultimately has been all about owning the power of what you do and positioning yourselves for the clients, the impact and the income. I've been talking about
this over and over again. So it feels exactly right to close the year with pricing expert, Casey Brown. And I wanted to have Casey on the show for so many reasons, but I really wanted her to unpack what she said on her Ted talk that she did, I think 10 years ago, all about knowing your worth and asking for it. And she said something that really sums up everything I believe about pricing, but about branding in general, which is she said,
and I want you to really listen to it and she's gonna unpack it on the show. She says, no one will ever pay you what you're worth. They'll pay you what they think you're worth and you control their thinking. So this quote is so powerful. And so I'm really excited to help her really get into what do you do to control their thinking. But then I got an extra little bonus as I was prepping for this show that I discovered that before she became a pricing expert, she...
has experience just like us. So she has an engineering background and experience in lean and an OD. So what does this mean? Is she gets us. She gets our unique challenges with seeing our value and then charging for it. So if you want actionable inspiration on how to take charge of how your clients see your worth, starting with how you see yourself, so you can go into 2026 strong, this is the episode for you.
Betsy Jordyn(02:45.888)
So without further ado, welcome to the show, Casey. I'm so excited to have you on the show. I wanted you to be on the show for a long time and I'm so thrilled that you're here.
Thanks so much, Betsy. I'm excited to talk to you today.
So I wanna get all into your expertise in terms of like what your business does. I think it's called boost pricing is what your business is called, is that correct? So I totally wanna get into all of that. But before we do, I wanna back up and talk a little bit more about your background because I think that not only are you a pricing expert, you're a pricing expert who understands the world that my clients live in. So it looks like you started your background in something like organization behavior, organization development and lean.
So I'm just kind of curious, like, how did you go from like a Spanish major to like a process and product expert in GE, professor of org behavior to pricing and productivity manager to pricing? Like just, it's an interesting journey. So I'd love to hear more about that.
Sure. Well, it's been not a very straight line, as you could imagine, based in all those kind of various interests. But as a kid, I wanted to be an actor. I love to be on stage and entertain and have people pay attention to my ramblings. But I grew up on the wrong side of the poverty line. so pursuing a career in theater didn't look like a straight line out of poverty for me. And I was really good at math and science. And so I decided to major in engineering.
Casey Brown (04:06.906)
I majored in chemical engineering, was about halfway through that degree when I decided to tack on a second major, a double major in Spanish. So graduated with degrees in chemical engineering and Spanish, and then started my career at GE in the Jack Welch Hay Day when Six Sigma was really coming on strong there. And I became one of their early black belts and loved that. So with an engineering background, I'm already a pretty process oriented thinker.
But with Six Sigma, I learned how to bring rigor to decision-making through data and really got a lot of value out of that time in my career. pretty quickly, was, know, like the engineering as a career for me didn't feel like the place for me to end up. mean, I actually heard I love people. I love to get out and about. And I was, you know, sort of stuck in a lab doing...
doing experiments and I had friends that were in the sales team and the marketing team and they were going to national sales meetings in Las Vegas and all this stuff and it seemed so glamorous to me. 22 year old me stuck in a lab in Cleveland, Ohio. I thought I need to get into sales and marketing. so GE had a really generous tuition reimbursement policy and so I started my MBA at Weatherhead School of Management at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, which
organizational behavior and organizational development. Some of the greats in that field are at Weatherhead, some of the fathers of the industry, really. So I got very interested in organizational behavior and organizational development, largely because what I saw at GE. So GE was this really famous company. Jack Welch was universally heralded as a business genius, but there was a lot of dysfunction inside the organization, plenty of it. And I thought,
You know, how interesting that one of the most sort of outwardly successful companies in the world, there's still so much, so many cases of people not working in the same direction, not rowing together towards a common goal and a lot of politicking. And I just got very interested in how organizations work, which is why I decided to specialize in that arena in my MBA.
Casey Brown (06:20.534)
and then sort of stumbled into pricing. Really, I did a rotation. was a GE Six Sigma Black Belt was a rotational program. And I did this rotation in pricing and sort of fell in love with it. And I know we'll talk more about pricing later, but that's a little bit about this like engineering to Spanish, to lean, to OD, to then to pricing. So.
And I'm sure everybody who's listening would think, you know what, what got me into OD and lean is like, I wanted to be a performer when I grew up. Like that's just such the heart of how we are.
It's funny now because a lot of my work now is being back on a stage and speaking about this topic that I have passion for, which is pricing, but it's like it's all come full circle.
So let's go back to your interest in pricing. So what was it about pricing that just sparked your interest that you just fell in love with? Like, what was it about that? And how do you see pricing and productivity kind of come together? It seems like you have both sides in your role when you were doing that for several years.
Yeah, so pricing for me initially was, so as I mentioned, I kind of did some rotations and I had chased a role in the commercial side of the business. I wanted to get out of, I had been in engineering and supply chain and I thought I really want to get a little closer to the customer. I want to know who they are, what they care about, why they buy from us.
Casey Brown (07:44.086)
and sales and marketing were both a very interesting place to land for a six month rotation, neither one felt like the perfect fit for me. And then I did a rotation in pricing and I just felt like it was everything I'd been looking for. was this sort of intersection of art and science, intersection of people and process, intersection of data and psychology. So, and just a little bit more on this sort of data versus psychology thing. Like if you ever took an econ class or read an econ book,
you'd see a demand curve in there, which very mathematically and clinically circumscribes the relationship between price and volume. Like if you charge more, you'll sell less. If charge less, you'll sell more. But it's not that mathematical and clear and clinical in the real world. There's a lot more nuance. There's a lot more gray. There's negotiating. There's bluffing. I think pricing's more like a game of poker.
It's, you everybody's trying to hide, know, buyers are trying to hide how much they're willing to pay, sellers are trying to hide how little they're willing to accept. Both sides are trying to evaluate the strength of their hand and guess at the strength of their opponent's hand. And it's a lot more nuanced and gray than some simple clinical mathematical relationship. so that, but at its heart, it's still a measure of value. And that can be discussed, that can be...
in many cases quantified, even when it can't be quantified with precision, we can speak in a qualified way about the impact to an organization. so I just, all of that getting bundled together into one field just caught my eye, caught my interest. And I have had, since then, a 20 plus year love affair with this field. just, I never have gotten bored with it.
So it seems like then for you, pricing brings in all of those different threads. So it's like it brings in your scientific side, but also the artistic side. But it seems like there's another whole side that you didn't directly mention, but the psychological side. So there's the art, the science, the psychology. Actually, that does relate to your org behavior. So it does relate to that. So it brings in the psychology and all of this in the context of a business. So it just brings all those things together.
Casey Brown (09:55.818)
Absolutely.
So you got fortunate to find like your area of focus kind of early on, but I am curious, like what made you decide to leave your job as an internal person doing that work and start your own business?
Well, it kind of goes back to the thing I already sort of hinted at, which is just feeling frustrated at some of the dysfunction in companies. And I went from GE to another Fortune 100 company and sort of saw a lot of the same kind of stuff. Like, I think everybody showed up to work every day wanting to do a good job, but structurally and, you know, with how organizations were structured and managed and how compensation worked and how, you know, spoken and unspoken incentives for certain kinds of behaviors. just...
It just was really broken. I saw a lot of brokenness in really large companies and I started to wonder if it's possible to ever really, you know, and as again, as I said, GE in the 90s and early 2000s was, you you couldn't open a financial newspaper and not read three stories about Jack Welch and GE. The world was in love with that company. And there were a lot of good things about it. I'm not trying to trash it, but if one of the best companies in the world was that dysfunctional, then, you know, what's this like?
I started to get a little bit disillusioned after that second jump to a big company that like, maybe this is just not for me. Maybe this big, being a cog in a wheel. And I also started to kind of feel a little frustrated about my ability to make an impact. Again, some of that has to do with the dysfunction and the politicking, but also just the magnitude. I mean, I was a drop in the ocean. If I did a phenomenal job, just...
Casey Brown (11:36.426)
completely killed it in my work. know, some shareholders are gonna get an extra 10th of a penny or something like, just being part of a giant publicly traded company just felt like it. I had kind of outgrown it. And so I was trying to look, at the same time I was a mom of two little baby daughters and I thought that I wanted more flexibility and freedom. This is hilarious to me now that I thought the best way to get more flexibility and freedom was to start a company, but at the time I did.
And so I thought I could bring this expertise that I have garnered over these years working in corporate America to kind of down market to kind of small and medium sized privately held companies that could benefit from the sort of expertise that I had gathered, but maybe didn't have an internal resource to do it or maybe couldn't afford to hire some big expensive management consulting firm to help them.
sounds like you and I have a very similar story of what got us to leave. I had two little girls at home as well. My kids were like three and five or something along those lines. Like have a two year old about to turn three and it was those crazy corporate hours. It's like, what am I doing here? I could, even I was working, know, Disney was like, well, like a GE, everybody's in love with Disney and it was such a great company. But then it's like, you put it on the scales and say, all right, even if I could do the best possible job, what's it gonna cost?
I do feel like what you're saying though too is true is that you start your own business and it's like it is super busy, but at least you have control over your time. You have control over what you need to do, but it is kind of funny. We're like, we'll get all this balance. Well, the magical client fairy will just bring people to us and we don't have to work for it, something like that.
So I don't regret starting the business for all kinds of reasons, but if I had made a decision on the like, what's gonna give me the most flexibility and freedom, if I'd have really understood that, I wouldn't have started it. Cause this has not been about flexibility and freedom as it turns out. I love it. There's lots of things that are wonderful about being an entrepreneur, but you go from having one boss to a thousand.
Betsy Jordyn(13:47.754)
Right. So if you were going to go back in time and talk to your younger self, what advice would you give her when she was at that crossroads? What would you suggest to her?
I honestly, I don't know that I would say anything. I mean, I think anything I would say would probably dissuade younger Casey from doing it. And there has been so much benefit in my life from doing it, but the cost was high. The cost was high. I was on the road a ton when my girls were really small. It's not been it's not been a, you know, straight up into the right journey in business. There's been plenty of challenges and plenty of setbacks and...
Plenty of personal costs for sure. I just think I'd keep my mouth shut and say, go get it, get it done.
Yeah, so it's almost like you have two sides of you, or it's like, I'm really glad I did it, but if I went back in time, like, I wish I would have known or didn't know this because that would have been much harder. I think that's one of those 20-20 hindsight, like, ugh, I wish I could save myself from this decision. But the reality is this decision is what got me to where I am today. So how do you feel bad about your decision? So I want to get into your TED Talk if you don't mind. So you did a TED Talk back in, I think, 2018, 2019.
Correct? Oh, 2015. Oh, wow. Okay, I loved your TED Talk. I fell in love with your whole philosophy of pricing, listening to that one. I don't know how many times I listened to it years ago. It's just about knowing your value. But this one quote just stuck out to me. And maybe it's like it was your thesis of the whole thing, your controlling idea.
Casey Brown (15:01.934)
2015. It's been 10 years. Yeah.
Betsy Jordyn(15:25.132)
But for me, it just solidified everything I believe about branding where you have to take control of how are you seeing in the marketplace, but also with pricing. you said, and tell me if I got this right, you said no one will ever pay you what you're worth. They'll pay you what they think you're worth and you control your thinking. that? No.
control their thinking. think they'll ever pay you what you're worth. They'll only ever pay you what they think you're worth and you control their thinking.
So how did you come up with this insight? Where did this amazing phrase come from and this insight? Like, could you give me the back story and other salient points of your TED Talk that you think would be beneficial for my audience who is struggling with understanding their worth and charging for their worth?
I can't remember the way the words all came together, but the idea had been with me for a while. And I still very firmly believe this, which is, you can have the best product or service in the world. I mean, it can be lights out amazing, but if people don't understand that, if they don't connect with those value points, if they don't fully understand the greatness of what you do, they're never gonna buy it. Or if they do buy it, they're gonna negotiate hard with you and they're gonna pay you for it.
underpaying for it. the idea that like having a great solution, like that's just half the battle. It's just half the battle. And this is where I think there's a connecting point between pricing and brand and messaging too, because it's like getting the number right is half the solution. The other part of it is helping people have a context for that number, having them understand why that number is not, you know, not only
Casey Brown (17:07.086)
something they should pay, but it's fair and reasonable and appropriate for the value they get. It's like, is $1,000 a lot of money? Well, it's a lot of money for a dinner out. It's not a lot of money for a car, right? So, an absence of context in a number is meaningless. And this is where it's our job as someone selling our services to help the customer have context for our value. And if all we do is sort of say, hey, here's what we do and here's the number and we just kind of shove it out there,
we're abdicating, I would say our opportunity, but I would also further go our responsibility. We're abdicating our responsibility to have a role in shaping the customer's view of our value. And I think, and I have lots of opinions and we can get into that if you want to about like some of the how and the how not. But at the end of the day, the first step is to recognize that it's incredibly important that we take an active role in shaping our customer's view of our value.
You know, and if we talk, and this gets to some of the other things I talk about in the TED Talk, especially for women business owners that tend to let the work speak for itself. They don't want to toot their own horn. But I would say not just, I mean, especially in the spaces of things like Lean and things like that, you've got a lot of, you know, process folks, engineering folks. These are people who are not necessarily generally, and I say this as an engineer myself and with great love and affection for engineers, but this is not a group of folks that are like,
let me be some kind of slick salesperson where I wine and dine and I tell my story and I beat my own chest about how great I am. These are people that generally do prefer to let the work speak for itself. And if they do great work, they think the rewards will come. But in my experience, customers are way too busy to slow down and fully understand your value if you don't kind of grab them by the ear and make them see it. And so that's really the genesis of that, what's behind that quote, which is,
It's really our responsibility to help shape their perception of our value because it isn't about our value. It's about their perception of our value that determines what's on our bank account.
Betsy Jordyn(19:13.174)
love that. Can I make just like one shift of the phrase is like it's can is that okay if I just make one shift in it and in this phrase and let's go back and forth on it is it's like shaping the thinking not of like our value but the value of working with us like what's the value we're contributing to their lives because I think what sometimes like with consultants and coaches and people who are in our world is like we think about our value like I have this process and it's so valuable but we're not connecting the dots and I think what goes back to what you said about the context.
is the context is how does working with you enhance what I'm trying to do? Like getting out of our own heads of saying, this, we could, because I have a lot of clients that say, my five step process is super valuable. But from a client's perspective, it's like, I don't care about your five step process. I want to know what your five step process is going to do for me. Does that make sense?
Yeah, that's what I was kind of hinting at when I said I have lots of opinions about how to do that because too much of talking about value focuses on me, on my stuff, on what I do, on how I do it. And the customers, their favorite radio station is WIFFM, what's in it for me, or what WIFFM. They don't care about your solution. They don't give one hoot about it.
Customers are too busy to self-interest. We all are. Customers are humans. Human beings are pretty notoriously self-interested. We don't wanna waste time or effort on anything. so they're not going, and we often, too often, sellers of products and services expect that it's obvious to the customer. They expect that they can just automatically connect the dots. That when I say we have a premium grade alloy or we have this excellent five step process that da, da, da, da, da, da.
that the customers are going to understand intuitively how that directly affects their life. But in my experience, they don't. They don't understand your solution and how it helps them as much as you do. And when you leave it up to them, they're not gonna do it. Or they're not gonna do it right. They're not gonna do a good enough job of it. So all they're hearing is you talk about you, you, you, you, you. And then all of a sudden it's like, then you say at the end of this, process is gonna cost $35,000 or 3,500 or 35 million, doesn't matter.
Casey Brown (21:22.67)
And the customer's like, my gosh, that's a lot of money because you haven't done an adequate job of connecting it to why I should care about it and why I should pay.
Okay, so there's two parts to your quote that I think, because I do want to get to all your opinions about what do you need to do about it. That's a big one. Yeah, so I want to get to how you control their thinking, but I want to just back up for a second from your experience of getting the customer's perspective. What influences how a client might think about what a consultant or coach does and what they're worth? What shapes their thinking long before they even have a conversation about, oh, buy this for me?
Like how does that, how do they get influence? Like what shapes their thinking on the front end where it's like, I think that you're worth this, you know, without you doing anything.
I mean, it's super variable. The answer is it depends, right? Like they have maybe they've last coached or consultant, they hired influences that maybe they have some kind of idea of like what they... So there's a couple of things. One is they might already have an idea of what this might cost, but they also might have a, which might be faulty, but they also might have a faulty idea of what they even need. I've seen this a million times in coaching and consulting and generally speaking in professional services spaces. It happens in our company too.
it's, know, a customer comes and says, I need, you know, X. And you're like, once you have asked five questions, you're like, you don't need X, that's not gonna help you. That's not gonna solve your problem. You need Y. It's, you know, I say it when clients come to me and say, sort of say, hey, we need this. And I'll ask questions and I'll say, what this is like, is you going to the surgeon and saying, or the doctor and saying, my elbow hurts, I need surgery. It's like, well, let me diagnose, let me prescribe. Because actually what you might need is physical therapy and not surgery at all. Like, let's get you.
Casey Brown (23:08.876)
the solution that actually helps you achieve what you want. So one of the sort of faulty assumptions or beliefs sometimes people walk in the door with is they already know the how. And I would say for the coaches and consultants listening to this, that the most important thing is to understand the what they want, not how they think they're gonna get it, what outcome they want and why that outcome matters. Now why the outcome matters is another really important thing because too often the words like,
What I want is a manufacturing process that works this way, because we're having this much waste, this much shrink, this much blah, blah. I want this outcome. Okay, great. And we stop there. If we don't understand why that matters, and I don't just mean in terms of time savings or dollar savings, I mean in terms of emotional impact to the person you're sitting across the table from, you're gonna really struggle to earn your full premium that you're really worth. It's like, what happens if you don't fix this?
You know, is this causing you some sleepless nights? What's the downs? If we forecasted 12 months into the future and you fix this perfectly, what's your emotional state about that? How's that make you feel? Let's forecast 12 months into the future and this was solved by the wrong partner terribly. What's that look like for you? What's that? know, how's that affect your life? How's that affect your professional life? How do you feel about that?
If we can dive into and mine for emotional impact, so by the way, even in B2B, even in really sort of hard and fast, like buying decisions that are rooted in numbers and logic, we buy on emotion and justify with fact. Human beings, even in B2B, there's so much research that supports this. We buy.
on emotion and gut instinct. And then we say, well, we went with these guys because they have the better guarantee or because they have the this or that, we start talking about the numbers and the facts. But the reality is we make decisions based on safety and trust, especially in a consulting and coaching relationship, because nobody wants to save $5,000 and get a terrible result. zero people want to save money and have a bad result. And if you accept that as truth,
Casey Brown (25:26.808)
then the alternative must be true too, which is they're willing to pay more for a good result. So all we have to do is make sure we understand what they really want, why it really matters to them, and then make sure we have done a great job of curating their understanding of how our value and our solution and our process connects to those outcomes and the whys of those outcomes.
Okay, so I feel like you are stating in such better ways a lot of things that I just finished a whole podcast series on partnership setup is what I call it. And you've just articulated like the essence of it so much better. I should have had you on earlier, but you and I are on the same page around this one is like, I'll say like the client is never right. Like they can't possibly know what the solution is to their problem because A, they don't have the expertise and B, they're too close to it.
Like they don't know, like they just come in and it's like, I want X. it's like, and I think that part of how you control their thinking is you control their understanding of how they're framing up what they're trying to accomplish. Move them away from a request to what's the real goal that's at play. And then once you can have that clear with here's what we're trying to achieve and here's why it matters, now I'm gonna insert myself into this picture. But unless I insert my, unless this context is here, I'm gonna be focusing on
like what the value of like whatever it is, my coaching hours, my coaching program, whatever it is, I'm gonna try to price it against that rather than price it against the client's transformation of what's important to them in their words. And that's a very different thing. I'm not asking for the client to invest in my services. I'm asking for them to invest in their own transformation and then my partnership in that. And I think it's a very different perspective. Is that, I mirroring anything back?
at all? Like are we resonating here? Is there anything you'd change about what I just said?
Betsy Jordyn(27:25.036)
What else would you say in the conversation with a client that a consultant or coach needs to do to control their thinking about their value? Like, what other things?
I guess I want to acknowledge that some people, first of all, and this is not an answer to your question, but it just made me think of it, and I'll circle back to your question, kind of react to the idea of controlling someone's thinking as if this is sort of manipulation or, you know, exerting your muscle over someone. And I would say, especially again, when you talk about coaches and consultants, this is a large, largely a group of people who did not get into the field because they love selling.
and they love having sales conversations, embracing conversations and negotiations. They love their craft. They love the thing they're an expert in. And the selling is a necessary, you know, they often many times see them as almost like a necessary evil. Like they have to do that part so they can get back to the fun part. And the reason I say that is there are already in my experience in this field, some maybe unhelpful stereotypes people keep in their head about selling and sales.
And so, and one of those is, selling is about trying to convince somebody to do something. And I have a very different definition of selling, which is that it's nothing more than making information available to people so they can make a prudent choice for themselves and their business. It's just helping people get what they want. If you don't sell them your services that help them get what they want, then you have let them down. This isn't about manipulation. It isn't about, you know,
It isn't about making someone do something counter to their interest. If you're doing that, you're doing it wrong. So I say that because the words control your thinking could potentially like lead someone to believe that that's what I'm advising with that quote. It's not, it's really about taking an active role in shaping their understanding of your value. Now back to your question, which now I've totally forgot. What was it again?
Betsy Jordyn(29:23.118)
Well, I asked what does a consultant coach need to do or say to control their, you know, cl- Right, yes. But how about let's say it this way, to proactively shape in a positive way, thinking. Although I can rephrase those words.
The most important tool for that is questions. It's so funny. I think that, again, this is an industry that is incredible at discovery and questions when it comes to the work. In order to produce a great outcome for their client, they have to understand a lot about their business and about their processes and about what's working and what's not working. And there's a million questions. Consultants and coaches ask a million questions.
I find that they don't ask as many or nearly enough in the selling process. And it's because they go too quickly to let me tell you about our stuff. Let me tell you about our process. Let me tell you about our solution. Let me tell you about our proven techniques to uncover blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like we do too much talking. And it kind of goes back to that, like enough about, you know.
What, enough about me, what do you think about me? Like we've got to do a better job of getting in the language, hearts, minds of the customer and their problems and their pain points. And we're never going to be able to do that if we're doing all the talking. So I think more and better questions early, as early as possible in the process, not just about their specific problem or challenge they're trying to fix, but again, the emotional layer around that. Why does that matter? Who is that important to? know, what is, you know.
you know, when's the last time, you know, and they're like, oh my gosh, this thing keeps breaking and it's causing me all these problems and da da. Like, you know, tell me about a time that happened that was really, you know, one of the most frustrating times that happened. Tell me a little bit more about that. want to make sure I understand like the importance and the richness of this challenge for you. Like ask, ask, ask, and then, or tell me more about that. Or how'd that feel? Or, you know, he's like, oh yeah, my boss, you know, I've been in his office 15 times in the last month talking about this problem and blah, Like, okay, and what, how's that feel?
Casey Brown (31:25.546)
And sometimes people have a hard time going to emotional questions because they feel like it's taboo to talk about emotions, especially when you're solving some kind of rigorous business problem for someone. It is not. You have to find the way to ask the questions that are authentic to you, but like, you know, a really easy is like, tell me more about that. There's nothing offensive or intrusive about telling me more about that. Anything else about that? man, that sounds like it would have been really stressful. How'd that feel?
Like just ask more questions. And this isn't all about emotion, but questions are also an incredibly important way to diffuse the resistance that arises in a sales process. Because everyone loves to buy, but they hate to be sold to. Everyone loves to buy, but they hate to be sold to. So as soon as you're in a dialogue with a customer about their problem and you're talking about your...
If you're talking and talking and talking and talking about your stuff and your numbers and your this and your that, they're sitting there listening to you through a lens of judging that information. I agree with that, I agree with that. Yep, that's right. Oh, I don't think we need that. Oh, that sounds like, you know, I've heard that before. If we start to discuss and negotiate and we're talking about pricing and I say, oh my gosh, that's outside our budget. And you just start kind of coming at me with like, well, but it's a guaranteed and it's a great five step process and it does this and it does that.
I've pushed a little bit against you and you've pushed right back against me. And now we're engaged in this sort of battle of wills, this conflict. Questions are the most effective way to disengage that conflict because our brains are literally wired to answer a question. There's something called instinctive elaboration, which is where our brains are hijacked by a question. They're physiologically incapable of contemplating anything else but that question for a second. So if I say to you, Betsy, what color is your shirt?
for a second, half a second maybe, your brain was occupied with that question. My shirt's red. Why is she asking me about the color of my shirt? I don't know what color is my shirt. You didn't think, I agree with what she's saying with pricing. You didn't think, what am I having for lunch later? So questions are also very powerful from a sort of behavioral psychology perspective in terms of, when I ask you questions and we're engaged in an inquiry, it becomes you and I versus the problem instead of you versus me.
Betsy Jordyn(33:48.95)
Yes. And I love that too. but it doesn't sound like you're just asking questions. It sounds like you're really deeply listening for the answers. know, and I
I think, and then asking the next question that's the most logical, it's actually connected. It's not like I have my list of, I don't have a survey, I'm running through my list of questions with you. I'm asking that first question and as soon as I hear something that makes me go, huh, that's really interesting, I'm pulling at that thread.
And I think that's a big difference, because I think a lot of times, like in the sales process, like a consultant or coach might go in and say, I have to establish my credibility, so I'm going to show what I know. So I'm going to try to solve the problem, like on the spot. And so they're asking almost the wrong questions, and they're asking them, like they're worried more about the questions than the listening for of like in that moment. And it feels like at the beginning, it's like, don't give, this is not a free coaching session. So we're not coaching somebody. So we're not saying,
How does it make you feel? Like it might be like in a therapy session. Like we're not doing that kind of thing. It's that we want to bring clarity in this initial conversation. like, why are we here? What's your goal? Why does it matter? And how can I help? Like that's basically it. And then you just listen and whatever they say. It's like we listen for the answers underneath the answers is what I'm hearing. But it's like, I'm listening beyond. I want your, like if I were going to hire you, you know, I would say,
I want to buy your online course to improve my mindset. And then you could say, well, let me tell you all about my course. It's got this many modules, and it's got these downloads. Or you could say, hmm, help me understand what makes you interested in this particular course. What can that create for your business? What problem is that solving? What's at stake? And in a now it's.
Betsy Jordyn(35:31.894)
Yeah, and then you say, you might say, don't know if you need a course, you might really need like a mindset session with me or somebody on my team to just like review your pricing or I might need something completely different. But if you went right into selling, you know, I might need something bigger, more substantial that I'm more willing to invest in if you can get beyond whatever it is that I asked for.
Well, I think going right into selling is asking questions. That's what selling looks like. So, but I agree with you 100%. The funny thing about trust is people, especially in a credibility based business, people think that it's important to establish credibility by sharing information. But the best way to build trust and to build credibility is not to share information, it's to ask questions that are perceptive and relevant and specific to my challenge. Because
I know the right questions to ask. It's not about just showing up and asking a million dumb questions. It's like, hey, you know, in my experience, Betsy, when sometimes when people say they're having this challenge, this other thing might be going on. Can you tell me if that might be happening? You can weave in like connect dot connecting expertise nuggets, even as you ask the questions. But it's by being asked the brilliant questions that the trust gets built so much more than I have these degrees.
I've worked on these companies. Here's the logos I've worked with. Here's these, you know, big results I've achieved for other clients. People actually don't care about that. They don't, and they're not listening. What they care, we are very obsessed with our own problems. And as soon as someone asks me questions and makes me feel seen and heard authentically and deeply about the challenge that I am facing, that's my partner. That's who I'm hiring.
You've used the phrase quite a bit around like in my experience. Is that like part of your toolkit that you teach your clients around like using like in my experience, I think this or in my experience. Like you've used that as you model this.
Casey Brown (37:31.916)
When I like that is when you may be challenging someone. So I think the best questions are not layups. They can be kind of piercingly, like it's, I always say this too, like nobody ever hires me to disagree with them. They've spent too much money for me to disagree with them. I need to be able to tell them the hard truth. And so sometimes if I'm seeing, like an example could be, many times some of the challenges that arise in pricing come from leadership, really.
because they have misaligned incentives. They're telling people one thing, but they're paying them another way, or they're telling them one thing and then if they do it, they're actually getting in some, you know, there's some kind of consequence to it. So I'll say, you know, I'll say like in my experience, sometimes when this is happening, it might point to a leadership misalignment. Is that possible that that's going on here? So for me, that's more about like just finding ways to be a little bit diplomatic as I kind of poke at them a little bit and say, this possibly a you problem?
It's possible.
So, you know, I think, and this is less about use these words. It's less about say the words in my experience or, it's more about, I think the lesson in that is find ways to respect your personality and respect your style. Don't try to be someone you're not. Don't try to be like, I listened to this podcast and Casey Brown was on with Betsy and she said, these things. So I'm going to say those things.
It will feel, if it feels inauthentic, it will seem inauthentic to the client and you will lose the deal and you will kill trust in a heartbeat. It must be authentic. So for me, I've just found the kind of the phrases or the way that feels comfortable to me to speak that I think gets my point across and gets my expertise understood while still trying to be diplomatic and humble in the right ways.
Casey Brown (39:24.684)
It's just my words that I've used, I don't have a list of things like say these things or don't say these things. It's more speak authentically to your personality and style and be curious and be humble.
think you're bringing up a good point that on a couple fronts is like, one, you can't just mimic what somebody else is doing and make it your own. You have to really understand the principles behind it. And your principle behind it is I want to use a diplomatic way to open up the door to consider other possibilities that the client might not have thought about. For you, that phraseology works. You can't just mimic somebody else.
But I think the other thing of what you're saying is that you can artfully guide a conversation to where you need to go using your expertise without coming at it direct. Like, are you struggling with this? You could say, I wonder, with a lot of my clients, they struggle with this. Does this resonate with you? And you can plant those seeds to move the conversation to where you need to go, but just make it your own. I think that that's a really good caution.
So, you phrased it slightly differently, but it's basically the same. Like in my experience, or some of my clients, you know, it sort of can create a safe opening for someone to admit something isn't working. Because it's like, it creates social proof. Like, yeah, other clients have sometimes struggled with this as well. Like it creates a bit of a safety to say, yeah, this is really something we're struggling with. Or we've tried 10 different things and none of it has worked. Like, yeah, we've run into that a lot with our clients because
And it's a challenging problem that you're up against because X and Y and Z. And so you're sort of commiserating and that sort of active listening, right? Like they're telling you something and you're reflecting it back to them. And you can do that in ways that still signal your expertise.
Betsy Jordyn(41:07.84)
And I'd like that you add on the extra thing. what I call it, like framing and empathy is like I frame up the problem and then I put the emotional label like, wow, like, you it sounds like you're dealing with this, this and this and ultimately you want to achieve that, you know, and did I get that right? And it's like, if so, like, wow, that's a really big deal. That must be really difficult. And then they're like, yeah, you totally get me. Once I get that, that like, my gosh, yes, now the client's settled.
and now they feel heard, now we could have the conversation, or like, now let's talk about solving your problem, because they feel like I understand. But if they don't feel like I understand, then they're gonna keep like, it's gonna go into a weird kind of conversation. And I think that that's a, yes, yeah, that's a great vision.
Pushing and pulling against, right. Because then they feel like they gotta keep explaining or repeating or saying it differently because you haven't quite gotten it yet. Even if you have got it. But if you haven't sort of set it back to them and make sure and just sort of check understanding that there is, then they're gonna continue to try to sell or to sell you on their problem. And once you've bought their problem fully, then you can start to talk to them about selling them a solution. But until you've bought their problem, you can't sell their solution.
So on your website, you have like a three part process where you talk about the beliefs, the behaviors, the results. So it seems like we've talked a lot about like, do I need to believe differently to charge my worth around? Like I need to change my understanding around like what sales is. I need to change my understanding around like what controlling their thinking is and why it's in their best interest. I need to change my beliefs around where I establish my credibility. We hit a lot of those. What behaviors will I do differently? Now I'm in this session and what results?
How do you get to that magic number that, you said there's an art and science to the whole pricing, it's like, do you teach your clients about what type of pricing they should choose and how do they, what are their behaviors around picking those prices? I know.
Casey Brown (43:02.234)
We actually don't teach that because I am not the right person to tell them what to charge and I don't know how to tell them to make that decision. What I know is that, and because one of the beliefs we didn't talk about that I'll just mention because we have spent a lot of time on beliefs, I don't want to spend too much more time on it, but is fear. Because fear is the dominant emotion present for most pricing decisions and negotiations in the world.
And most pricing decisions are made from fear, not from confidence. We're pricing not to lose the work rather than pricing to win. We're afraid the customer is gonna choose someone else and so we under price. if we sort of consider that fear is the backdrop for most decisions and most negotiations, and what we're transforming in that first step of our process is really transforming fear into confidence. Then what that leads to in the form of behaviors is more confident decision-making around pricing, more confident presentation of pricing and value.
more confident negotiation, more confident handling of objections. So the how we proceed through the whole rest of the process is rooted in confidence, not fear. And so that behavior is the shift. We do certainly in our programs teach specific skills. So, you know, how to ask better questions, how to present value more effectively, how to handle objections masterfully, how to pass along price increases fearlessly. These are sort of skills rooted in a more confident
set of beliefs, right? And those things then translate to the outcomes, which is the results, right? So what we believe about our pricing power shapes what we'll put on the proposal and how quickly we'll fall back in discount when we're pushed. And those things directly control how much money is sitting in our bank account. Ford said, if we think you can or you think you can't, you're right. So he said, if you think you can or you think you can't, you're right.
Hmm.
Casey Brown (44:56.226)
So this is about like, no one will ever pay me that. you know, no one will ever pay me $500 an hour for this. No one will ever pay $10,000 for this. You know, we have these like beliefs rooted in fear, like, you know, whatever. And those things stop us short. And then when we see a transformation in that belief, then we put that $10,000 on that proposal and then the customer says yes. And all of sudden we've disproven our hypothesis, which is that we can't do it.
Wasn't it Henry Ford who has that quote about like the mechanic who goes in and fixes the car and it took him like a minute and do you know the story I'm talking about?
I don't know it from Henry Ford, but I know it from lore. Like, yeah, there's somebody, you know, I've heard it lots of different ways. There's a very, you know, this manufacturing process has been broken down for three weeks. People, they've sent in every engineer they've spent. It's costing them $10,000 a day. And they finally call this one expert. He comes in, he writes an X on this one little spot and says, you know, do it, you know, put, you know, tighten this.
and they tighten that and he does it in one minute and then it fixes everything and all of a sudden it's up and he charges $50,000 and they're like, but it was only one minute. He's like, no, was $50,000 was not for the one minute I spent here, it's for the 30 years that allowed me to come in and know exactly where to put the X. And by the way, you've already wasted $500,000 on this problem in the last couple of weeks, like now it's fixed.
I mean, there's different versions of the story, but it's all about the expertise to know how to solve the problem, not the amount of time it took to solve it. And I have another good story about that too, which is about Pablo Picasso, if you want me to tell it. Yes, please. Okay, so Pablo Picasso was sitting in a plaza sketching once upon a time and a woman recognized him, asked him to sketch her, and he says he will, and he dashes off a quick sketch. And when she sees it, she's amazed. She's fascinated. She can't believe how well he captured her spirit, her essence, her je ne sais quoi.
Casey Brown (46:53.55)
And she asked him he'll sell her the sketch and he says, yes. And he quotes her a price of 5,000 francs. Huge sum of money for that time in history. And she's shocked. In fact, she's angry. She says, but it's only took you five minutes. He says, no, madam, it took me a lifetime. Why this story is so relevant for an audience of coaches and consultants is this is a group of people who are masterful in what they do. True mastery, true experts in their field. And that expertise is not, you know,
just not measured in the hours that I'm spending on this client project. They're measured in the decades I've been building this expertise. It's hard to become an expert, really hard. It's easy to be one. Once you are one, things get easy. But becoming one takes a lot of mistakes. It takes a lot of skin needs. It takes a lot of hard work. so don't be tempted to under price what is easy for you just because you happen to be masterful at it. it's, know, customer can bring some unsolvable problem to you. You look at it in five minutes, you know exactly what to do.
The only reason you can do that in five minutes is you've done it 10,000 times before. Don't be tempted to under price what's valuable to the customer just because it happens to be easy and fast for you to produce rooted in your mastery. They are not paying you for your time. They're paying you for your brilliance. You're Picasso, baby, get paid.
Yeah, your Picasso baby get paid, snaps to you on that one. And I think this is where it goes also to the whole idea around charging for time, is that if you charge for time, you're not really looking at the value. Like it's not in the client's best interest to keep paying longer if you can get it done shorter. There's a premium of getting something done shorter. And what you're doing is you're
you're going to put yourself against junior people who take longer. That doesn't even make sense. That's going to for sure cap your earning potential. And I think that these two stories really illustrate that is it doesn't matter how much time you work. It's about the value that you create. And you should charge according to the value that you create rather than the time you spend.
Casey Brown (48:50.182)
I could not agree more. I really, really, really dislike people who sell their time. This is not what the value is. The value is not in the amount of hours you spent on it. And I think that it's super problematically common in this industry, in this space. in fact, made it, I so dislike billing by the hour that I created a video a few years ago called the 12 things I hate about selling time and materials. So if you, I don't know if you do show notes or anything, but I can send it to you you can put the link in there.
If not, they can, you if you just go to a boostpricing.com and search for 12 things and that, and it will take you to that video because, I could not. So everything you said, agree with. will also, the faster and more efficient you become, the less money you make, which makes no sense at all. It also makes clients really ticky tacky about spending time on things that will actually improve the outcome. like if you say, Hey, I'd like to have a meeting. you know, like the collaboration.
Like they may come across something that they realize might affect the outcome, but they're like, oh, if we call her and we have a meeting, then that's another $250, you know, blah, blah, blah. Like we don't want anything working against collaboration. don't want any, like there's so many reasons it's a bad idea to sell time.
I cannot agree more. it almost puts you, this is why people hate lawyers. Lawyers charge a lot per hour, but you're reticent to even call them. It's like the antithesis of partnership. if you are a consultant or coach really trying to ignite transformation, you don't want every time they reach out to to be a financial decision. You want to have the partnership and the money issue off the table as fast as possible. I have other things I would add to my 12 things that I hate.
That would be one of them. The other one I hate is like self-contracting. And because I think that puts you into like getting paid less than you're worth. And I think a lot of it is, is because people are afraid of the very processes that you're talking about, really getting over those mindsets and asking for the money for yourself. Like that fear of sales and coming across slimy. I know you have programs that help people.
Betsy Jordyn(50:53.516)
you know, with this, you know, like that, like where they can really, like for me, if I had it all my way, I want every consultant or coach who are these brilliant experts of what they do to step out beyond the shadows, to position themselves for the work they want, to charge the fees that they deserve. And a lot of it is in around these mindsets. So I know you have programs for individuals. So can you tell me more or tell all of us more about what Boost Pricing does?
when they can work with you individually and then maybe when they can bring you in to help with their client work.
Sure, thank you for asking that. So there's two different kinds of companies that we help. Most of the work is with companies that have sales teams and other customer-facing folks that sell. So including engineering firms or law firms or CPA firms where they're the sort of seller-doer model, but also the classic sales team model. So it's company that manufactures bolts and fasteners or who is digital marketing and has the 10 salespeople on their team.
we can help train those sales folks and the customer facing folks to reveal some of the tactics customers use and then arm those sellers with the methods, messaging tools and confidence to win more deals at higher prices. That's the teamwork, which is, don't think primarily who's listening to this, these are more, maybe more solopreneurs or somebody with a small team. And we do have offerings for individuals. It's the same goal.
So in other words, even in those programs, we are also pulling back the curtain on the customer tactics and then arming folks with the methods and tools and messaging and confidence to negotiate higher prices, to confidently, not just negotiate. What's the right number in the first place to put on that proposal? How do I have the confidence to charge what I'm worth? And then once I put it in front of the customer and they say, my gosh, that's outside our budget or more than we paid our last consultant or whatever, how do you navigate that?
Casey Brown (52:48.534)
and still win those deals without discounting or with minimal discounting. And so we have two programs on the solo seller side, I guess I would call it. So it's founders who sell, sales teams have won, solopreneurs. If you're in that spot, then we have two different programs we do for you. Actually, I guess there's a third I'll mention. The primary one is a cohort-based program. It's a 10-week program, which is...
It's live instructor led, it's over Zoom for 10 weeks and they can join a cohort. We usually run two to three of those per year. So could sign up for a cohort with us. If that is either from a time or a money perspective, not aligned, we have a DIY version, which is just an online course only. You can take this course, sub $500 offering to learn the
core concepts that the cohort program is built around. The main difference between those two offerings is that the DIY program is a course only, whereas the other program allows for live breakouts, brainstorms, role play, identifying opportunity, accountability, live coaching by our team. So it's just an extra layer of development of those skills. And then the third I'll mention is not really an educational program, but it is an opportunity.
online pricing community with a lot of solopreneurs and individuals that have joined that. And that gives you access to me. That's actually the only way to get access to me because I don't teach any of our programs. I do lives. In fact, I'm doing a live in two days and people are signing up for Q &A slots in the live session. There's, you know, feeds. There's all that coursework, by the way, is in that program. So
If a community and a place to land and ask questions and be supported is more your jam, then fearless pricing communities. So we got a lot of different ways we can help.
Betsy Jordyn(54:46.35)
So it sounds like then the base level is the DIY program. And then option two is I can get the DIY program plus the pricing community would be that one. Or option three is I can get those other two things plus I can get this guided cohort. So like if I'm in the cohort, do I get the pricing community and the access? Yes, I should have mentioned that. Absolutely. So it is three.
Like good, better, best kind of a model. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay, so what did you say about price aligned? What was that phraseology? Like if this one's not aligned, then you can do.
this isn't aligned with your sort of budget and your time resources and things like that. Because sometimes it's, you know, people are like, my gosh, 10 hours, you one hour a week for 10 weeks. I'm, you know, I don't really have that time. If when we schedule the cohort doesn't work for you, sometimes it just doesn't work.
I like the phraseology of a line. You have a lot of really great phrases.
Casey Brown (55:40.046)
Words matter a whole lot to the success in this arena, because again, back to that context.
So is there anything else you want to tell me about like pricing mindset or commanding the fees that you deserve? And I'm just not asking you the right questions or business ownership.
No, I mean, I think you've asked a lot of great questions. And one that just dawns on me based on that last comment about price aligned. think one of the things that stops people from charging what they're worth is fear that they're going to lose the deal. And they think, you know, I'd like to charge $8,000 for this, but I'm just too scared to do it. And I'll just charge six. Or the customer says their budget's six, even though my normal price for this is eight and I'll just take six, whatever, right? So fear is one of the main things that stops people and it's fear of losing the deal.
And I think that one of the questions I get a lot from the solopreneur space, because that's almost all professional services people, is I want to be bold in my pricing, but I also want to be able to adjust. Like this, really, really want slash need this business. I want to be bold, but if I'm too bold, then they're going to say, how do I, you know, is there a way to kind of have my cake and eat it too?
And I say there generally there is, there is a way to be bold with your pricing, but still signal some flexibility such that it doesn't close the door in case this one's a no. And so very often when I'm talking to like how this works in my business is I'll hear people talk about what they need. And then this is maybe on the team side. And I say, based on everything I'm hearing, this is the best solution for you in my opinion. Here's why, da, da, da, da, da. Here's the cost, here's the time commitment. If you think I've missed the mark on your needs.
Casey Brown (57:21.864)
or if this isn't aligned with your resources and your budget and your time availability, then let's regroup because there's probably some other ways that we can help you. let me be bold about the price, but let me signal some flexibility like we have another offer. Another thing, and I do a lot of speaking, keynote speaking, and I think the way I do this in speaking can also be applied in coaching and consulting, which is if there's a speaking opportunity I really want. Like it's the perfect audience for me.
where it's incredible exposure. Now I still want my full fee if I get it. Of course I do, but in my heart, I know I would be willing to do it for less. I'm a little afraid to just tell them, here's my number, that's it, take it or leave it. Because if they say no, I really would be willing to do it for less. And what's the way to do that? And I often will say something like, my standard fee is X, but I wouldn't want budget to be the reason we don't work together. So if this doesn't match your budget, please let me know and let's see what we can explore together to find a solution. So that's...
way if X is too high for them, I haven't slammed the door on it. I don't do that all the time because I certainly don't want to invite constant negotiation. I would just do that in those cases where I'm like, I'm really pressing my luck with the boldness of this price and or like they've already told me their price, their budget is half as much. I'm like, well, you know, cause I've had clients tell me their budget is, you know, whatever, uh, for, you know, say it's $10,000 and my speaking fee is north of that. So
but I've told them like, well, like, you know, here's my number and they've figured out how to get, you know, corporate sponsors or they figured out other ways to get people to cover that or they found room in the budget. They didn't have an extra, you know, shrimp station or something, you know, they found a way to cover my speaker fees. So I think there's ways to signal some flexibility, but still protect your price integrity. And essentially by saying, hey, there's ways we can work together.
Let's make, let's keep the door open to that.
Betsy Jordyn(59:19.79)
Well, it sounds like you already have that baked into what you even described as your offer is you said, we could do the cohort, but if that doesn't work, I have a downstream offer. Like I have an entry level. This might be what you need, but I can have a downstream. And it sounds like even there's other things that you can do with a client too to say, all right, well, it's 20,000 for my speaking, but I know your budget's only 15. So how about I'll take the other 5,000 of energy exchange of you giving me referrals or allowing me to have a back of the room or.
Other thing is to keep the value. So it's not necessarily just discounting for no apparent reason. You could have a, just because you're afraid. It's like choose, stay in your power, make a conscious choice, have a downstream offer, or find other way to keep the energy exchange equitable.
There's two things there that I'll kind of speak to quickly. One is the sort of what I call the give to get. If you're going to change the number, something else has to change. So I will say, need, know, introductions to three other conference organizers. I would also like you to record a video testimonial for me that I can use on my website. And I would like to have a book table at the back where I can sell books and sign books, something like that. Like, I don't ever change price without changing the offering or without making an ask.
critical to protect price integrity. The other thing though about having multiple offerings, we do have multiple offerings, you know, because people need different things. I never lay all those offerings out to somebody though. I mean, I did today because you said, hey, what are the different ways you help somebody? But if you were a client asking me, how do you work with companies or how would you work with me? How could you help me? I would ask you a million questions and then I would have a very specific one option I would put in front of you.
And I would say, this is the best solution for you, Betsy, based on everything I heard from you. Here's why it's the best solution for you. If you think I've missed the mark on any of this, we can talk about some other options, but this is the one. Why I think that's so important is too many coaches and consultants are laying out packages, you know, here's three different levels or here's all these options. And they're laying those out from the get-go. And I think that abdicates your role as their guide. It abdicates your role as the expert in the room, because the expert in the room should know which one is the best for them.
Casey Brown (01:01:27.106)
and should have a point of view on it. Doesn't mean you aren't willing to pivot. Doesn't mean you aren't willing to consider alternatives, but you should have a point of view about which solution is best for them and you should tell them that and why. I'm not a big fan of here's three options. No, this is the best option for you. If this doesn't fit for you, we can discuss other options. Otherwise you're just, it's like you're a, know, an all you can eat buffet and they're just coming in and taking whatever they want. You're not the expert. You need to be the expert in the room.
Interesting. I feel like I have so many more questions, but I know we have to cut off our time on it has been such a gift to be able to talk to you and hear all of your deep wisdom. I can't even imagine what more I would get if we had another hour and then some. And so for anybody who's listening who wants to get your pricing mojo up or boost your pricing mojo or something, cause it could go along with boost. Your website is
www.boostpricing.com
Moostpricing.com is our company website. If you're interested in the pricing community, that's fearlesspricing.com. And I have a book, it's called Fearless Pricing, available anywhere books are sold. And if anybody wants me as a speaker at their event, I have a speaker page at caseybrown.com. So we got all the websites. Also, I'm very active on LinkedIn and YouTube. And so if you want to, you free resources, free content, you can connect with me there.
And I also will put a link to your TED talk, which was so amazing, and to the show notes as well. Thank you so much for being on the show.
Casey Brown (01:03:00.664)
Thanks, Betsy. was a joy.
So as we wrap up this episode, I want to add a couple of thoughts on this conversation about owning your worth and charging for your value, which I don't think are exactly the same thing. So one thing I discovered on my seven-month sabbatical where I really wasn't earning any money was my worth, which was the worthiness of my strengths, my expertise, and the vision that I have for consultants and coaches and the role that we play in transformational change. And all of this worthiness that I discovered was disconnected really from
any external validation. You know, I didn't have a bunch of signed clients, I didn't have podcast views. So I really discovered that owning your worth means that you own, that you have gifts and passions for a reason and that you should take them seriously and have them treated with respect. But charging for your value? Well, that's just a strategy. It's a strategy that emerges out of shifting our perspective on sales and pricing so that you can go forth and set
fees that reflect the value that you create without fear or second guessing yourself. So as you take time away from work, I really hope that you use this season to tap into your worth and the worthiness of your vision for 2026. And I want you to tap into the worthiness of your innate gifting that is powerful, meaningful, and monetizable. And then I want you to build the strategies you need to take charge of how clients see you and then pay you so that you can grow your impact and income.
So I hope you have a wonderful holiday season. Thank you so much for listening to the show and being a part of my virtual community. And if you are enjoying this show, please hit subscribe so you can make sure that you are ready to hear the new episodes I have coming in the new year. So in the meantime, I will see you next year and thanks so much for listening.
