0:00:12 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, hey there and welcome to the Consulting Matters podcast, where we take on all kinds of issues, big and small, when it comes to growing a high-impact, high-income consulting or coaching business. I'm your host, betsy Jordyn. I'm a business mentor and a brand positioning and messaging strategist. You can find out more about my personalized strategic positioning programs, just for consultants and coaches, on my website at wwwbetsyjordyncom. And don't forget, jordyn is with a Y and not an A.
Today we're going to be tackling the topic on what it means to stay human in the age of AI and what it really means to create a human-centered organization in these absolutely challenging times. To help us explore this topic, my guest today is Dr Edwin Marino. He's the president and founder of Human Intelligent Workplace and he is dedicated in prioritizing human intelligence at work in the area of artificial intelligence. We dive into the impact of AI, among a bunch of other things that are creating challenges for creating these human centered workforces, and we're going to give some ideas for consultants and coaches who are working on culture and people practices and how they can succeed in an environment where, let's face it, current legislation is definitely creating barriers to creating those welcoming workplaces. So, without further ado, welcome to the show. Edwin, I'm really excited to have you here.
0:01:33 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
Thank you so much, Betsy. I sincerely appreciate the invitation Glad to be here and to talk about things that both you and I are very passionate about.
0:01:40 - Betsy Jordyn
So we're going to be diving into human intelligent and human centered organizations. You know, as you just said, it's something that's near and dear to not just you and I, but to my audience of consultants and coaches, because we care deeply about it. And before we get into the definitions, I really want to get a little bit more about your background. How did you become an expert in what you're calling in human intelligent organizations or human centered organizations? How did you become an expert in this area?
0:02:07 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
So I don't know if I'm an expert, because I think I see myself as always learning. But let me give you some background as to how I got to here. I started in this field in the Air Force doing diversity work. It wasn't called diversity back then, it was called human relations. Over the years after I got out of the Air Force it started to get letters. As you know, it was up to almost a fourth letter D-E-I-B, but at the end of the day- B.
0:02:31 - Betsy Jordyn
What was B?
0:02:32 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
Belonging.
0:02:33 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh, belonging. Oh yeah, that's a good one. I like that one.
0:02:37 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
But at the end of the day, my common theme throughout from the Air Force and all the different organizations that I've worked with and teaching to at Rollins and different universities is really about leadership and how do leaders create a healthy organizational environment. So that's always been there.
But what I noticed over, particularly since the pandemic, I believe it became a tipping point.
So I've always been writing, reading, researching and so forth, and never was it called human, intelligent and even human-centered. It wasn't even called that back then either, but over the last few years that started to percolate more, and so when I saw the term human-centered IBM has got a white paper out there on it and they go on to define it and so forth that your audience can go look up or I can get it to you if you want to get it to them. But as I started to look at that, what also started to take front and center was AI, artificial intelligence, and so that's when I started to think you know what, in the era of technology because technology has been around with us for quite some time in the era of technology, I believe, in the era of AI, you're going to need AI, you're still going to need the human intelligence and what my argument is if you're trying to create a human-centered, human-focused organization, then really what you need is to bring that human intelligence to the table.
That comes with all of its baggage good, bad and different biases and everything else, but try to learn from that and get better at it. At the end of the day and there's organizations out there that are constantly reinventing themselves. So that's kind of what got me here that the common theme over the 40 years that I've been in this work and business is humanity. You know, as I tell my students in the MBA program, I said, before your title of director, vp, whatever it is you're human. You have your insecurities, you have your strengths, you have your weaknesses, you have your flaws all of that kind of stuff but before that, you are human.
And so, at the end of the day, what a lot of the work, a lot of the things that I'm reading is coming out as saying you know what Leaders are going to need?
Yeah, they're going to be able to use AI, but they're really going to need that human aspect to it and they're really going to need to show up in a conversation you and I had earlier authentic, empathetic, compassionate, all those kinds of things which up to now that I can think of that I can find AI hasn't been able to duplicate that. So that's kind of what brought me here is that we're going to continue to need create healthy workplace environments, particularly when the fifth cause of death today is work due to stress, and that's from a book called Dying for a Paycheck, which I go. That is sad state of affairs that that's going on when we spend 9,000 hours of our adult life at work. We need to make it a healthier place at the end of the day, and that's really what got me sort of through an evolutionary process, brought me to what I call today human, intelligent workplace.
0:05:29 - Betsy Jordyn
So I think that there is a burning need for what you're talking about. But I think that it's like you talk to two consultants and you're going to get three opinions around. What does it mean to be a human intelligent organization, a human centered organization, a people centered organization? So can you put some terminology around it, like what are we really talking about here of what we're trying to talk? Like give us some working definition where you know we're all kind of saying we're going after the same goal.
0:05:59 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
Yeah, I got you. So I have defined human intelligence workplace in the following manner. So I have defined human intelligence workplace in the following manner it's an organization where leaders model effective leadership behaviors by creating a healthy organizational culture, where the workers experience is one of being engaged while collaborating with their diverse teams and if people go to my website, they see that some of those words I've actually underlined. In addition to that, it's a place where people feel psychologically safe, they feel listened to and understood and they find fulfillment in the work they do in the organizations they play. All of those words that I've highlighted leadership, organizational culture, experience, engagement all of those have extensive research behind them, numerous books written out there, so I purposely called them all out to say this at the end of the day, are you creating this sort of a healthy environment overall? Would your workforce agree with you if they actually said this is where I work, type of thing? So I purposely pulled out some words that I have seen over and over and over again along my journey, and even more so today, because I'll give you another example.
Psychological safety was not a term 20 years ago, but now, all of a sudden, it is front and center. Especially, we want organizations to be innovative and creative. I love that because a lot of organizations say our values of innovation and creativity. But the issue is well, are you willing to let Betsy fail? Because when you're being, when you say you want somebody to be innovative and creative, there's a 50 50 chance of failure. They're trying something for the first time and if you don't want Betsy to fail, then you don't want to make any mistakes. Then don't say you're being innovative and creative because you're just kidding yourself. You're making things up as it goes along the way. You're making things up as it goes along the way.
0:07:43 - Betsy Jordyn
A lot of what my lean consultants would say is you're trying to help create like a learning organization, more of like that open system. You know where there's like feedback loops and that type of thing. So it seems like we're all kind of saying a lot of the same things, like you're not saying things that's like dramatically different than some of those clients and you know my L&D clients. You might talk about human-centered organizations. It just seems like, like I think I might, and let me just throw this out, ian, let's just have a sloppy conversation.
You know, it just seems like that if you're talking about human-centered, in some ways you're talking about who are the people? There's the customers, there's the employees, like those are the people who are the organization centered around and instead of being centered around profit alone, like it just seems like that's where, like if I were going to bottom line it, it's like the locus of, like what our world rises and sets on is. If we're going to have one metric that we're going to really pay attention to, or two metrics, it's customer, like the customer response and the employees, rather than profit alone, and that using, like focusing on the people as the means to get. You know, it's just like this the profit will come, but we're not focused on profit alone.
0:08:54 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
Yeah, at the end of the day, you know there's too many the best, the great place to work organizations out there. They don't come out and say they're human centered or human intelligent, but if you look at all of the stuff they're doing and if you look them up on Glassdoor, the reviews that they're getting on Glassdoor it's about this is a great place to work. I feel listened to, I feel psychologically safe. All of the buzzwords that we're using today, but it's just new buzzwords of things that have been in existence since I've been in this business. Do I feel respected by my boss? Do I feel listened to actually listened to by my boss? Does he or she include me in a conversation so that I can contribute? Am I constantly learning those kinds of things? So, yeah, those organizations that focus.
As a matter of fact, over the years I've heard the opposite. We are customer service already. We have to take care of the customer. Well, many years ago, herb Keller, the former CEO of Southwest, used to say you know what? No, my philosophy is I want to take care of my workforce so that they can, in turn, take care of the client. Because sometimes he said this and in his book Nuts he would say. Sometimes the client is drunk, rude, nasty, all of that stuff on our flights, and so I want to make sure I'm taking care of my workforce and they in turn will take care of the client. At the end of the day, and organizations that do that, it pays off at the end of the day on the bottom line. It keeps coming back over and over again. So I'm not sure why we're still having this conversation, because organizations still keep going back to we need to take care of the client. Well, guess who shows up every day to take care of that client, day in and day out.
0:10:28 - Betsy Jordyn
I would advocate that. I don't think they care about caring about the customer anymore. Like when I was new in consulting, I was like, just leaving Disney, people were curious about the Disney best practices around customer experience, at least from my perspective as a consumer. How long I have to sit on wait times, you know all those kinds of things. Like I don't think we're in this environment, even like the Southwest, and I studied them in grad school and it was like shuffle, fun, fun. And you know, like the seeing the videos about what they were, they're charging for bags. Now you know like they're, they're they're falling in line, profit only, and and I think that's the concern that that it's. I feel like it's always been there.
But I think that there's been a value in the or in the world that it's like okay, we, we want to aspirationally move towards like people are the center and everything else is like you take care of this, this will come, but there's more threats right now to that value. That's different, you know, and so one of them that you mentioned in a lot in your work is just the rise of AI. You know like so AI has a powerful, has powerful potential to change workflows and how people are engaging, and it also can make it way more challenging to create that people-centered approach, human-centered, human intelligence-centered type of organization. So what's your thought around? How do we create a positive relationship with AI in the workplace? And then I want to talk about it more specifically as it relates to consultants and coaches, because I think we all have. We have challenges specifically with our work in trying to get clients. That make it more challenging. But let's talk about it at the workplace and then we'll get into the consultants.
0:12:08 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
So in the workplace, at the end of the day, ai is going to be another tool. I mean and I'll give you an example yes, a very intelligent tool. I get that. But then again, if we think back to 100 years ago, when the PC came into existence, that was the new AI. At the time we didn't call it AI, but that was the new technology and at the time, back then, it eliminated almost 4 million jobs and turned around and created 20 million jobs. So I feel like this novella is repeating itself as a matter of and.
So, yes, there's organizations out there that are obviously going to be tapping into this. We're tapping into it as consultants and coaches, but it's a tool, something to complement and get maybe rid of some of the inefficient work that we don't want to do. I was just talking to a consultant the other day. She says, yeah, I'm using AI to streamline some of my processes and so forth so I can stay focused on the stuff I enjoy doing, focused on a client and so forth.
But behind the scenes, back office type stuff, I use AI to my advantage, because that's one less thing I need to worry about at the end of the day. So for me it's not a threat. It's something that's going to help me be smarter, work smarter, do some work more efficient and so forth, than we did in the past. You know, a lifetime ago accountants used to have that little TX calculator to do the numbers and everything. All of a sudden, computers came along, excel came along and Access came along and compute, and those little calculators went away because now they had all the formulas in front of them. So it made them get more efficient, and I think that this is another evolution of that same process, just years later.
0:13:38 - Betsy Jordyn
Can I play devil's advocate with you for a sec? Ok, so several years ago I did a employee engagement project with a company and they and then I had another employee engagement employee engagement project. This is when I was still a consultant, and a lot of the, a lot of the things that the leaders were saying that they were struggling with the employees was the challenge with critical thinking, and so I started seeing this as a theme, like, okay, we're struggling with critical thinking. So I started thinking a lot about it. I'm like, okay, I wonder what happened with critical thinking. And I think about it when I think about again, I had kids at the time. You know, kids at the home they're still there, but they're just not in the home anymore and I thought about when they were writing papers compared to when I was writing a paper.
You know, when I was young and I had to write a paper for school, you know I first had to be beyond like just picking my topic. I had to coordinate. You know what parent was going to get me to the library? You know I had to work through those card catalogs to physically get my book. I had to get the book and then I had to write on all my note cards, you know, like what my thoughts were, and then I had to physically move those note cards around in order to make my outline, and then I had to take that outline and then I'd write my paper and you know, and there was all of these like tactile steps, and then I watched my kids do it and then, you know, ai wasn't like humongous, but there was like some emerging stuff, but they would just go online and it was like that was it? They cut off all of those paths.
My concern about AI is what we think our routine are really our higher level of creative thinking, and we're going to lose our brain cells, you know, or those synapse connections that lead us to creative thought. Like instead of like. I see a lot of my clients when it comes to, like, creating content for social media, instead of really sitting with like okay, what is it I really want to convey to my audience? Or, you know, creating content for their website, and it's like instead of like. Okay, what do I really want to say? How do I get at my voice? How do I learn those skills? They'll just go to AI. Ai is going to spit out a post and then they post it on, you know, social media and then all of a sudden, like then, ai gives you an AI generated response on social media and now my AI is talking to your AI and there's no connection going on here and, plus, I'd cut off my ability to have to struggle through.
What is it that I actually really want to say? Because AI just came up with something and you just post it. So it's like I kind of worry about that from a workforce standpoint. Is that we think what are the, the backend, non-value added tasks? We don't realize there's all these other things that we are learning and building in our brain power. So it's like you're talking about human intelligence. Are we losing some of our human intelligence by relying? I'm just throwing this as a devil's advocate. I could be completely wrong and it could just be like a crazy Betsy bias.
0:16:26 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
No, no, it's not. I would be deceiving myself and you if I said that's not going to happen. It's happening in certain cases, but at the same time, it's not happening in certain cases. What I mean by that is, as I contradict myself is yeah, there's going to be those that are going to cheat. And I'll give you a perfect example. You know that I've taught part-time and still do in universities.
I remember when AI first came out just about 18 months ago or two years ago, and all over the news they were freaking out about well, now students are not going to do their papers, they're going to cheat. And I said you know what? I don't have time to worry about that. I mean, at the end of the day, you're cheating yourself out. You're not cheating me out. So I create the environment and I say don't use AI.
And, by the way, I posted an article. I actually went out to AI and said write me a 500 word article on X on what I talk about. And I gave him some specific instructions. It came back. It was pretty good. I posted it on LinkedIn. I said what do you think? I asked AI to talk about stuff that I talk about, or write about stuff that I talk about and write about, and it did a pretty decent job.
But that doesn't mean I'm not going to go out and do my own stuff and do my own research.
So for those that are going to be out there and maybe take the shortcut, so be it.
However, I will tell you this everything I keep reading about and finding research, I keep finding about the biggest skill sets going forward, and this is not just people in our business, this is IT companies and so forth, like Microsoft and so forth, in the middle of laying off a bunch of workers, all of those companies out there, and all of the research is basically saying critical skills needed for the future, interpersonal skills, critical thinking, collaboration, listening all of those kinds of things are going to be needed going forward. So I'm not too concerned that humanity is going to be, you know, it's going to dumb itself down. Will there be people dumbed down? Yeah, but then I would argue that that's been in existence ever since humanity has been here. There are some that really want to learn something and there are some that say I'm going to take the shortcut and we're never going to get rid of that. Humanity has figured out over time how to do good things and bad things with the same stuff at the end of the day, which is what I find fascinating and sometimes disappointing.
0:18:40 - Betsy Jordyn
So what you're making me think is maybe the answer is like one of my clients her name is Michelle Natalia Moore and she calls herself the tech relationship consultant. She does like digital well-being and her premise is is that it's not about like technology itself, it's our relationship with technology. You know it's like learning how to balance and create a healthy relationship with technology. All technology, like a lot of her passion comes out of like all those Zoom meetings and during the pandemic and needing to balance it with actually, you know going outside and you know still doing the human stuff and you know, having digital fast. You know where you're not really on that and maybe there's just a balance Like I found for me.
I was I was a heavy user of ChatGPT because I do so much copywriting and support with my clients and it really helped with the brand building process, like it accelerated it. But I started to see like like my creativity is like slowing down. I'm getting more frustrated with chat GPT. So I went on a chat GPT fast from for my content creation, like don't even give me ideas. And I went back to Julia Cameron's artist way process where it's like, okay, I'm going to go, like I'm going to reignite my Synapse connections with my three morning pages. I'm going to write three pages every day and all of a sudden it's like like my content is starting to flow again. You know I might have chat, gpt, you know like kind of support me, but like this particular week I was like stuck on my content because there's so many things that I have to say. I want to say you know what have you? Like on Monday I think I recorded like four 15 minute videos and an hour long podcast and like I and it's like I just pull that stuff out, all not chat, you know no AI, and it's like I got faster from it it.
But then, of course, I still use chat, chat, gpt every single day. You know like I still use AI. I don't know if I would use it. I like my team does not use. Just to be clear, I do visual branding. My team does not use AI. We custom, we custom create your logo just in case. You know, I don't want people to worry about that, but I think it's about the relationship. It's just like any relationship. It's like putting it in balance. It seems like that's kind of the answer. Am I on track? Is that correct?
0:20:47 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
from AI. I've got a piece I talk about, you know. So how do you start taking care of yourself? You know, first taking care of yourself. None of it has to do with technology. It talks about walking. It talks about being mindfulness. It talks about eating healthy, getting sleep. None of it has to do with technology. So, at the end of the day, how can I take care of myself?
For example, if you're stuck on a problem that you can't figure out, neuroscientists will tell you left and right Go take a walk, get away from the computer and go take a walk, go exercise, go run, go do something else. That's when this stuff really starts clicking, because you're not thinking about the issue and all of a sudden, these light bulbs start to go off. So I think again to me, ai is a super great tool. I'm using it in a minimal capacity right now. I'm beginning to use it more. But my content is my content, my research is my research.
I try to connect the dots and so forth for critical thinking, critical analysis and, as the older guy on the call, not only that, they say for older people, make sure you're using this thing up here more so than not and not just bent over. I keep arguing that the future careers are going to be the people that work on your necks, because everybody's bent over reading their phone or whatever it else may be. So I think it's a great tool to have and to use, but again, it's something to complement you, and I'm reading books around leadership that says this is how AI can help your leadership. I just read one on human-centered organizations and it talked about how you can use it for certain things. But at the end of the day, you and I have to have a conversation and you need to read my non-verbals and listening to me that I hear you write those kinds of things, something that you just can't outsource to AI.
0:22:43 - Betsy Jordyn
Okay, you saw me like roll my eyes, like really quick, and I was just trying to picture, like is there going to be a book on you know, how to use AI to save your marriage? And it's just like, oh my God, like you know, like our spouse is going to say well, what can I say to make my wife feel heard? And you go to AI. It's like oh for crying out loud, like at some point it's some, you know like that's where, like there's some of it is is like how do you be a better leader? It just it's like how do you be a better human? You know, like, how do you just talk to you Like, how do you just care about the people that you're working with? And how just to be a better human? And how is AI going to learn how to be a better leader? To go consult a human, go get a mentor. You know like have somebody like who could teach you the humanity of the work, like that's the problem, like like the whole leadership development I think our entire industry is built on. One thing is that people wind up, you know, progressing in their organization because they have good technical skills. Then they hit a certain point in their career, where the technical skills don't matter anymore, but now they have to work on leadership skills because their job has changed. They're no longer an individual contributor, now they're a leader. Now crap, I got to learn new skills and it's like, so then just treat it like like.
What I find fascinating is like, when we think about our vertical area of expertise, we have no problem investing it. Like I see you as several degrees behind you, like in your formal expertise. You have no problem, we have no problem, you know investing in it. But when it comes to these other skills, you know that require something new at a different level. All of a sudden we're like oh my gosh, I should already know how to do this. Well, why should you know how to be a good leader? You know it's a brand new job. You don't know how to do it, so now you got to go invest in it. It's the same thing Like when I work with my clients on starting their businesses like, well, why should you already know how to do it?
You invested, you go and get it. Like my clients have no problem investing in their consulting skills, getting coaching certifications. When it comes to the marketing and sales, you're a business owner. This is part and parcel. So when you say leaders using AI to become better leaders, like just become a better leader or just become a better human who knows how to lead people, really invest in this skill set, like, don't look for the hacks. There's no hacks. Sorry, I'm off my hobby horse, I'm off my little platform, you know where? What is it like? What is like my little, my little box. What's the box? Yeah, I know.
0:25:00 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
I'm off my little soap. What's the box?
0:25:01 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, I know what you mean, I'm off my little soapbox here.
0:25:03 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
There you go, there you go, no, no, and I get it. I mean, you know it's funny because I hear people today. Well, you know, we got these issues with leaders lack thereof. I think one of the things I've seen, ironically, when I got out of the Air Force in the Air Force, before you get into a management role, they sent you off to leadership training because they know eventually, with your rank, you're going to be up in a certain position. I got out into the civilian world and it was different. There you're the best accountant, you're the next boss, you're the best HR person, you're the next boss, and somewhere down the road we'll train you and there's a different set of skills that you're going to need, and I think that's what's happened, number one.
Number two it's a systemic organizational issue, because I call it the car wash syndrome.
There's billions of dollars being spent on leadership development, but yet we still have a bunch of bad leaders. It's not necessarily bad, it's that they're trying to survive in the environment that they're still in. So if you send them through some leadership development participative type example and what they're getting held accountable when they come out of that is to deliver results, no matter what, well then you're not rewarding them for the new skills you just taught them to be participative, and that's why I call it the car wash syndrome. It's like taking your car through the car wash when it's raining. When it comes out, it's going to get dirty again. Well, you got to start changing the dynamics and the environment in an organization, so leaders are doing different things and they're being rewarded and held accountable for different behaviors. At the end of the day, that's one of the problems I see with a lot of organizations, and they're throwing out good money but not using it in a holistic way is where I see that there's opportunities to be, to be Gannard, yeah.
0:26:44 - Betsy Jordyn
So this is awesome. I want to switch directions if you're OK with me on that, because I want to. I want to tap into your expertise and the DEIB space on a lot of my clients. They're very concerned about how do we create welcoming workplaces when current legislation and what seems to be in and popular moves against that. And I know that you have tips from you know people who are sitting on different kinds of boards and and there's some insight of like, what can people do who really really deeply care about it, and the environment that they're trying to do this work in is just becoming more hostile to these values.
0:27:21 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
One. As consultants, you need to dig back Again, similar to as a consultant when you're a client. You need to dig deeper. So, for example, as you mentioned, I'm a senior fellow on the conference board. It was part of the DE&I committee. It's got a new name to it because, to your point, there's a lot of backlash around that terminology. And what I learned? Interestingly enough, I was hosting a group that does research on this area and what they said was you know what, everything you're reading out there, seeing out there in the media about Target and all these other organizations, in reality, if you really research the facts not the fake news, but the facts or not alternative facts you find out that some of them are doing it, but just incognito. They're just not publicizing it as much. But the only thing you see in the news is oh, Target did X or whoever else did Y type of thing. But a lot of organizations are still staying forward with their DE&I strategies. They just may not be calling it that, they're calling it something else and this is the reason why the changing demographics Like it or not, you can't change that tsunami.
I'll give you two quick examples. One we have an aging workforce. This country has. The world has an aging workforce, but this country is not away from that and I'll give you an example it takes 2.1 to change to replace your workforce. Well, the United States was at 2.0. Now it's at 1.6. China is at 1.4. Japan is at 1.4. Europe is at 1.6, 1.8. So they don't have enough workers for the future.
So we have an aging workforce and we have ageism going on. So how do we keep people that are living longer, healthier, staying, actively engaged in the workforce while not discriminated? So that's one segment. The other segment is you have a growing multicultural workforce behind that older generation. So you literally have multi-generations, but now you have multicultural behind that. So I'll give you an example 78% of the entrants in this decade to corporate America are going to be Latinos 78%, and these are legal Latinos, by the way. Now, it's sad that I have to say it now in this day and age, but that's the growing demographic. Behind that you have African Americans and Asians. So, again, people are just not making enough children and there's a term out there called DINKs dual income, no kids, that's the new term. I heard it on the news a few months ago and I've done some research.
0:29:44 - Betsy Jordyn
I heard that years ago I was a DINC for a while.
0:29:47 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
So there you go, but now the term is out, now it's on primetime media. So my point to that, to all of your listeners, is I hear what you see, but really dig into the information with the client. The client may just not want to call that out, and I'll give you a perfect example. Another example I used to work with the Neural Leadership Institute and I used to go into companies in the United States and do unconscious bias sessions in Spanish, because most of their workforce did not speak very good English. And what they would tell me is hey, you got to be sensitive because of the term and so forth. And I said you know what is? Hey, you got to be sensitive because of the term and so forth. And I said you know what?
At the end of the day, engaging your diverse, growing workforce is a leadership thing. Leaders need to ensure they're engaging their whole workforce, multi-generational, multicultural and so forth. So while, yes, I hear the media and the press of what's going on there, trust me, the tsunami of the demographic changes that are taking place, it's unstoppable. You're going to need workers in the future. Yeah, you're going to have AI come into the mix. As a matter of fact, ai, I think, is saying it's going to eliminate 70 million jobs and create another 160 million jobs by 2030. That's five and a half, four and a half years away, type of thing. So all of that stuff is going to continue to happen and I wouldn't let, I wouldn't get too nervous as a consultant. You just may have to change the terminology, maybe I've always used it, as to me it's just good, good leadership.
At the end of the day, how do we continue to grow on market share Cause, oh, by the way, that growing, changing demographic out there is also our consumer. So how do we reinvent ourselves going forward? Because we all remember Sears, blockbuster and so forth. Where's Blockbuster today? Where's Circuit City today? And Sears has only got a few stores left. So that was the Amazon grandfather, you know, or the grandfather of Amazon, I should say, today.
0:31:36 - Betsy Jordyn
So the people that I know are listening would say I'm totally with you. On the business case. You know, like we see that there's a need. You know, given the changing workforce, the diversity that is definitely there, the problem that they're having is that there are some of their clients no longer are going to go after those particular values anymore. Values anymore, like it's almost like those things are not because there's like a potential backlash in and they're nervous to even the, to even package it in a new package because they still might.
You know, like there's, there's real threats, like certain universities are being attacked over these types of stances that you know huge amounts of funding is is being there. That there's like there's the Port of Seattle is very interesting. They had like certain grants that were supposed to come from the government that got cut off because of asks for a promise to get rid of the DEI and to make it easier for other types of things to happen, and they said no. So they're trying to go. So there's like a whole like to say no to these types of things could lead to something really significant that people don't want, you know. So it's like that's where the question is. Is it's not that there's not the need or the business case. But how do consultants and coaches who are working with these leaders who are facing this particular environment, like? How do you help them who are facing potential? You know, backlash if they continue to hold true to their DEI values.
0:33:08 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
Well, there's some organizations out there that have stuck to their guns and they're continuing to be successful, and one example is Costco, and there's others out there. But there's others that just decided, you know what, just to get the attention off of us. We're just going to bring it down a notch and maybe not call it out what it is, because here's another misnomer or mistake that's happening Now, all of a sudden, de&i is associated with affirmative action. You know you're bringing in a certain quota. Well, it was never about that DE&I. You don't have to do DE&I. You had to in the past do affirmative action. You may not have to going forward, but in the past you had to, but you don't have to do D&I. So if you really don't want that as a business strategy, I think the only one you're going to hurt yourself in the long run is you organization, whatever the client is.
But there's many organizations out there that are doing it without calling it that, and that's OK to keep the attention off. But they know the realities of the numbers and the changes. You know most of these organizations because we have an aging workforce. They know that 40%, 30%, whatever is eligible for retirement in the next five years I was hearing that back in the days when I was with Lockheed Martin.
I'm pretty sure that's still the issue today, and so they just need to get creative and work at things differently, keep their attention up but keep true to their values, in whatever way you got to package it, because you know it's about change and change continues to move the needle. It's not about being stagnant. So you dealt with the reality that you got in front of you. So how do you repackage yourself so you can still address those issues that you believe are fundamental and core without alienating your workforce and, at the same time, without getting the wrath of others that believe it's a threat to them? Because I think it's really a threat to them. It's really not a threat to anybody. So I think it's an opportunity that some organizations are actually able to work with this and manage it well.
0:35:04 - Betsy Jordyn
So I think in some ways, like, what you're saying is is that you just need to charge and horse it, you know, and dress it up in some new outfits and stay true to your values. I think that not every company is going to be on the you know, on such a visible, you know line of defense, if you will, like Disney staying true to its values in the face of the don't say gay bill, like there was massive backlash. But the way that, the way that I would imagine myself if I was still working for executives is to to really come alongside those executives who are making these big, bold decisions to make sure that maybe businesses are partnering together, like if Target and Walmart and Costco and all these big box retailers like banded together, I think that you can. You can hold the hold the line, you know. I think that you can. You can hold the hold the line, you know. I think, like Harvard holding the line, then all the other universities hold the line with them, like I think it's like.
Like if I were a consultant now, I would try to get executives to come together and say you know, we, we say no because there's a bit like, even if you want to take the moral, the moral and ethics out of it and you just take the business case.
The business case still exists. So what do we need to do to make sure that we protect our, our collective brand or our community brand? You know, I think that there are certain things that are happening here in our state of Florida that is going to affect our tourism brand for a very long time, you know, and that's going to affect everybody Like I think Visit Orlando should be, like you know, jumping up right now, because Visit Orlando, like has all of this stuff together, where there's all these different companies. Like you should be jumping up now and say take the moral and ethics out of it for just a second. You know, let's just talk about it from the business standpoint. Even the moral ethics, like you know, that can keep me up at night, but just take it from the business standpoint. Do we want this to be our brand?
0:37:11 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
How is this going to affect? You know, coming? You just said the opposite a while ago. To come to their senses, I believe, because, again, you cannot change the changing demographics. It is what it is and that's going to continue to happen. And I'll give you an example.
Another example I told you China doesn't have enough of a workforce for the future. Well, they came out and they said we'll pay you to have kids. Well, the young generation said no, and it's still not happening. They're using more AI and so forth, but they don't have enough workers for their organization. So I think there's going to be some re-level setting going on around the world as people go. Where else do we need to go to have enough of a workforce for the future? That's a good place to work, that's a good country, and support these people going forward. So, to your consultants and your coaches out there, the work will be there. It may be called something else, it may evolve to something else, but the work is going to continue. Ai at the moment, you know I love the movie Matrix and Terminator and all those other movies type of thing, but God willing, it doesn't. It doesn't end up that way, but I think it's going to be?
0:38:36 - Betsy Jordyn
I sure hope not, because I'm going to my chat. Gpt is going to write us up and kill me because. I have such a I have such a weird relationship with it, so please don't, well don't scare me on this.
0:38:50 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
No, and and, and you know it's funny, I can't even say the A word because she'll respond and say something. So I got to. But you know that, and Siri and all these others, we've been using that for a while and it's, it's going to be fine. I think it's a matter of how we reinvent itself Again. Just think about the PC. Seems like a hundred years ago when it came into existence and, you know, it revolutionized the way we worked, right, and and, and it seems like that was so long ago. That's like in the caveman's or cavewoman's times, and it was like, no, that was really in the seventies, eighties, nineties, when really the, the, the computer exploded. And here we are, and we didn't. Back then I was reading something we didn't know much about the internet. Here we are today, can't be without it, but we make it happen.
0:39:35 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, this has been an amazing conversation. So we've talked about a lot of different things as it relates to AI. We talked about like, does DEI, dei, d-e-n-i, d-e-n-i-b, and we talked about a lot of different things, but the core was about human intelligence, human centricity. Is there anything else that you want to tell me about creating the type of organizations where we all want to work and we all want to create, and I'm just not asking you the right question.
0:40:03 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
No, I appreciate the time here I would think that as consultants and coaches look out their clients number one, you know this and hopefully they know this too. With your clients, you just got to peel back the onion to really get at the core issue number one. Number two you got to help your client number one take care of themselves, and there's different ways to do that. Number two then turn around and actually help their, their, their, create leader effectiveness, make sure your leaders are being effective, which then in turn leads to a more human, centered, human, intelligent workplace. And then the last one is ask yourself, is my organization ready for change? Because there's some interesting, you know, surveys and questionnaires and different instruments.
Lippett and Costner came up with a thing that said if you don't have these components for your organizational change effort, these are the things that are going to happen to you. So start with I, that FM radio station that we all tune into, wiifm. What's in it for me? So start with I and then go from there to how do we help these leaders be more effective going forward? Because we still got the same behaviors from a lifetime ago, still today, because we got new leaders.
60% of leaders are not trained in leadership. That's a sad fact and then from there go into so what else? How do we create? If Ed Marino says this is how you define human intelligence workplace these are the key words that he talks about. Do we have that in our space and, if not, what do we need to help to improve? As you talked about earlier all these engagement surveys that are coming back, in reality, what we have is a disengagement problem at the end of the day, in organizations. So it's costing trillions of dollars of organizations. So if your client's interested in the bottom line, they may want to focus on the biggest, most important resource, which is their people, and hopefully they will, and if not, we'll have work for a long time to come.
0:41:54 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, okay, so make sure everybody knows, like your URL, how they can get in touch with you.
0:42:01 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
Sure, I'm at humanintelligentworkplacecom. That's my website Also. You can find me, excuse me, on LinkedIn, so please reach out if you want to talk some more about this. I appreciate your time inviting me here, Betsy. It's been a pleasure and it's really engaging. Now I know you really have this interesting relationship with your AI chat. Gpt Mine is in the beginning stages. I've used a little bit of it, but I'm looking forward to learning more from the tool and use it in a capacity where it doesn't take away the concern you mentioned earlier. The whole critical thinking piece. So human intelligent workplace got some videos and articles out there about all of that stuff and what's motivating the workforce and so forth Just came out with an article in the Orlando Business Journal too recently. Somebody reached out to me on that, so if I can help you, I'm just an email away.
0:42:52 - Betsy Jordyn
So you could be my chat GPT therapist, like the two of us could go to you, even though chat GPT doesn't care when I'm upset with him gaslighting me. But that's a different story for a different day.
0:43:03 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
I could be your chat GPT executive coach, which I'm sure somebody's now going to take off on that.
0:43:09 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh yeah, that's a great idea. All right, well, thank you, you just helped this branding person help somebody else with their brand Awesome, thank you. I got extra bonuses, all right, well, thank you so much for being on the show.
0:43:18 - Edwin Mouriño-Ruiz
We'll talk to you soon. I appreciate it, Betsy. Thank you so much.
0:43:22 - Betsy Jordyn
All right. So, despite my cracks at my dysfunctional relationship with chat TBT, I do have some powerful best practices on how I use it to generate a ton of content ideas and use it as a key tool with my clients on their brand building work, particularly on the areas of the work that they cannot do themselves, like it's an amazing tool for to do an external market scan. So I promise you the baby is not thrown out with the bathwater. So if you're in my brand building programs, and especially with my brand new program that I'm calling the Power Words, power Hours, which is these rapid fire copywriting coaching sessions where we work together for your real time client opportunities, so if you have a proposal on the line and you're trying to figure out how do I find those words to land it, or if you're going to a networking event, you need the right words. Or if you have a speaking opportunity, that's where this would really come in. With one of my clients, we worked on a power word power hour to work on her content strategy and she came away with a ton of ideas and I also will show you all my prompts if you are working with me.
I promise I have not thrown the baby out with the bath water. I promise are working with me. I promise I have not thrown the baby out with the bath water, I promise. So head on over to wwwbetsyjordyncom to learn more. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to hit subscribe wherever you're tuning in, you know, and also share this with your colleagues and your friends. I'd super love it. Appreciate it greatly if you can rate and review it on Apple podcasts. And until next time, thanks so much for listening.
