0:00:00 - Betsy Jordyn
Have you ever wondered if you're charging enough for your consulting or coaching? I know for sure I have. Maybe you're stuck pricing by the hour or maybe you're discounting to win that work. If that sounds like you, you're in luck, because in this episode, we're getting into how to confidently ask for your worth and get paid for it. And welcome to the Consulting Matters podcast. This is the show for consultants and coaches who are ready to own the power of what they do and position themselves for the clients, the impact and the income that they are ready for.
I'm your host, betsy Jordyn, and I am a business mentor. I'm a brand messaging and positioning strategist. You can find out about all the things that I do to help my clients make more money through making a bigger difference on my website at BetsyJordyn.com. And don't forget, Jordyn is with a Y. So today we're wrapping up on my series that I've been talking about in terms of the journey from service provider to strategic partner with a really important conversation, which is all about pricing, figuring out what the right price is and being confident in it and then asking for it. So this is a topic that is near and dear to my heart because really, ultimately, this is the full expression of my overall brand and my show promise, which is all about owning the power of what you do.
But the reality is, for most of us, when it comes to being asked for what you charge like, when somebody asks you, like what do you charge, or choosing a price for your offer, it's like a moment of dread fear instead of confidence. But it doesn't have to be, because my guest today is Karen Laos, who is a communication expert in what she calls a confidence cultivator. She's a popular speaker about pricing with confidence, and so she's going to show you how to ask your clients to work with you without hesitation and charge fees that reflect your worth without apology. So when you tune in, you're going to discover why pricing stirs up so much fear and angst in consultants and coaches, and how to discern if whether it's just like a mindset thing or a value clarity thing that's holding back your pricing, why undercharging crushes your confidence and actually shortchanges your clients, and how to make that shift from charging for your time to charging for value. And, ultimately, what to say when a client pushes back, when they say your fees are too high.
So welcome to the show, Karen. I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thank you, betsy, likewise. Okay, so before we get into our whole topic around, like you know, getting confidence in your value and asking for fees that reflect your worth I want to talk about your background, because your background is super interesting and I love your titles. So I would love for you to share a little bit more about your background, on how you became what you call a communication expert but my favorite part confidence cultivator.
0:02:48 - Karen Laos
Thank you so much. Well, it all started years ago when I was born no, I'm just kidding when I was six years old. But honestly, when I was six years old, my dad used to take me to flea markets and he would say go have fun. He'd hand me a few dollars, say go have fun, but never pay full price. I had no idea that you could negotiate. Obviously at that age I had no idea what that was, and that opened up this whole new world. He always used to say the squeaky wheel gets the grease you don't have if you don't ask.
I had that voice in me a lot, but then I also had my mom, where I think this is really important to share from context that I was the last of nine kids. She worked in the home and I learned through her modeling that women don't have a voice specifically in the home, and so it was a little bit confusing because she was a powerhouse in the community. My dad wouldn't let her work, which was awful. I used to be very frustrated by that as a kid and never understood it. But she and the home didn't have this voice. So I grew up with that confusion and over time. Of course now, many years later, looking back, going okay, I understand what that is. And so fast forward to my career path. I was quite successful because I learned that, okay, I understand what that is. And so fast forward to my career path. I was quite successful because I learned that. Well, when you have, when you produce something, when you're there to accomplish something, then you add value, but you don't add value just being who you are. And that is something that I had to navigate and figure out over time, not till much later.
And so fast forward to when I was an executive in a boardroom and could not get the words out. It was really embarrassing because my boss shut down the meeting and I just I couldn't believe it. And she pulls me aside and she goes Karen, you didn't trust your gut, Like she just said it. So, matter of fact, and I'm thinking one of two things, right? Oh, no, two of two things that I thought in that moment. One is I could have tabled a meeting. I didn't know that was an option. And then, secondly, why do I keep asking for permission? And what truly the?
If you go even deeper into that story, I didn't agree with what she had suggested that I present and that's why I couldn't get the words out. It's not because I wasn't able to present myself. It's because I was in that internal conflict, and so that was the day that I really set out to change and figure out what is at the root of my problem. And once I did that, it took a while, through lots of personal growth work. I did that.
It took a while, through lots of personal growth work, but to get to this point where I realized, oh my gosh, I'm the one. I have agency, we all have choice, so I'm the one that's holding myself back. I really describe myself as being in a prison of my own making, and so when I realized how freeing it was to be able to get out of that, I wanted all women to be free and have that confidence. Now, thankfully, for years and pretty much my entire career was based on communication, specifically helping women with executive presence and, frankly, all genders, but helping people deliver the best message they can in a memorable and unforgettable way through being succinct and clear. So just the fact that when I left corporate in 2020, that's when I said I'm going to focus specifically on helping women, and that's why I like to call myself a confidence cultivator because many of my clients say you gave me the strategies and that gave me confidence to walk into those conversations.
0:06:30 - Betsy Jordyn
I have so many different directions I want to take with this conversation. You gave me so many data points, okay, so I just want to stop. So do you mind if I just like parse out everything you?
0:06:39 - Karen Laos
just said Go for it.
0:06:40 - Betsy Jordyn
Okay, so one side I want to just get clear from my audience, because my audience are consultants and coaches and they've made that big leap from an executive role into a consulting or coaching business. So you did this five years ago. What kind of role did you have as an executive? Like, were you executive communications? You were in hospitality? Like, what was your official executive responsibility?
0:07:01 - Karen Laos
Yes, so I hired and trained all of our speakers and consultants specifically for a communications firm. We helped professionals speak with confidence and clarity in their executive presence and delivery, whether it was on a big stage at, say, for example, Google with their big live events, and then could also be an engineer that's trying to communicate across the table to someone else. So exactly what I'm doing I shouldn't say exactly, but the strategies and the tips are really the same thing so helping women be able to use their voice, specifically the mechanics of their voice, hand gestures, facial expressions, eye contact, all the body language, how we come across in our voice, but then also things like how to stop rambling and get to the point. As a recovering rambler myself, I taught myself a tip around that one.
0:07:52 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, that must be hard for you. I'll just like tell that for you from afar, because I don't know anything about what you're talking about, just kidding. Okay, so it sounds like then what you had is like like you've always had this like communication background. You were working for a firm and that firm you were doing recruiting and helping them, like helping organizations, like get speakers and that type of thing which makes sense, because I think that's you do that for TEDx now too, liz, like find speakers with TEDx?
0:08:22 - Karen Laos
I do. I don't look for the ski. I coach the speakers.
0:08:25 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh, you coach the speakers.
0:08:26 - Karen Laos
Okay, yeah, so same thing, what I was doing before, which was, yeah, I was essentially in charge of all of our facilitators and consultants that did the work, helping other people communicate in their presence as well as their message, and I would also be on the stages and with clients myself.
0:08:45 - Betsy Jordyn
Interesting, so okay. So I want to get clear on one thing. It's like, so it sounds like you had a really fulfilling career with the firm. What was it about the like? Because I just I always have to ask people who became entrepreneurs because my audience, you know, or some people are on the fence of, like, trying to make that leap into their own business. You know, like, what was it like for you? Like, what got you to say you know, this is cool, I've been doing this for a firm, but I want to go do this for myself, I want to make my own thing. Like, what was it that made you decide I want to do my own thing?
0:09:26 - Karen Laos
Sure, well, first I have to say that in 2003, I was in HR and left a role. I was head of HR for a company and left the first time to focus on my business in, specifically at that time, in career coaching, and then I realized, oh, this is a lot more work than I thought to market, to get clients and that kind of thing, and so I didn't last very long and, serendipitously, the gap came back to me where I used to work in their corporate office and made an offer I couldn't refuse in leadership development and training, and then I was a consultant for them for years. Now I bring that up because back in 2003, leaving, that's when I really got that I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur. I've always been very entrepreneurial minded and love business entrepreneurial minded and love business, but leaving there. Then, throughout my entire so from 2003 to 2020, I had clients on the side all the time in addition to working a full-time job. But I will tell you, the last two years of that role is when I really started feeling this itch of this. This place is expanding and I am constricting within this environment and I don't know what I'm going to do next, but I'm just feeling like there is something more for me, and I would describe myself as a racehorse behind locked gates, because it felt like I have all this energy to put towards something. But I can't fully embrace who I am here because we also had a strong non-compete, so I had to be very careful about what I did outside of the company. But I will tell you, it was in September of 2019 that I put that stake in the ground and now, as a result of what I'm about to tell you, I created a model called the three D's, which is how I then left and have taught other people, and that is that I put a stake in the ground to purchase a program related to helping more women get on stages through Jess Ekstrom, who is a woman I greatly admire. She has a program called Mic Drop Workshop.
So I knew that I wanted to focus on my own speaking business, but I had, frankly, I kind of pushed the dream aside for a long time. And this we think about. Anybody listening just remember to follow that gut reaction that's within you to go do the thing that you wanna do. Cause I kept, I had to ask myself why do I keep putting this off? So, 2019, I made a decision to leave in the next year of the end of 2020. And, of course, covid happened. So then I quit earlier. I had a big speaking engagement that I was able to do at the Phoenician Hotel in Phoenix and I was all excited. Like Phoenix, I'm rising and then COVID happens. But that speaking event gave me such confidence and just this fire within me, because it was to a bunch of women, and I thought this is what I want to do. I want more of this. So the three D's, just in case you're curious are.
0:12:22 - Betsy Jordyn
I'm guessing it's decision dream and something else Like what is it?
0:12:25 - Karen Laos
Yeah, decide, declare, deliver. So decide that you're going to do something, put that stake in the ground and sometimes it is a financial investment or a time investment and then, secondly, tell everybody, declare it, tell everybody this is what I'm doing now, so that everybody knows, so then they can find you and have referrals to you. And then the third one, of course, is to deliver whatever you're doing or do it. That's another way I sometimes describe it.
0:12:51 - Betsy Jordyn
I would add a D, then the dream it first. So can I make it a 40? Yes, of course.
0:12:58 - Karen Laos
Yes that's so funny.
0:13:00 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, I had the dream for so many years that I was like I want to declare this Like what I love about what you're talking about too, because I do, because we do need to get into pricing, because that is what the point of this particular episode is about is. It does feel like that there is a connection in terms of, like, charging your worth and asking for your worth. That is connected to doing something that you actually are excited about doing, like I really wonder if, a lot of times, like people hold back, this is something. This is just you. This is what I experienced as a branding person.
You know who is helping people repackage their careers into a business is that you could have you. You did repackage your HR career into a business and you could have maybe made that career coaching business a total success.
But it doesn't have that same light you up passion as what you have here, and I think that that's like one of the things that I really forced my clients to do in the very first phase of the work togethers, we need to declare clearly what is the right business for you, and that will get you over the hump because now you're in the correct direction, rather than what I call the should-to-oughto business. You created a should-to-oughto business that you didn't enjoy, and now you're in the right fit business, and so then you can get more confident because you're doing stuff you actually enjoy. To me, that is the secret to sustainable success.
0:14:21 - Karen Laos
You make such a beautiful point, betsy, because in 2020, I made that decision as well, probably a few months after leaving my job and starting my own thing that I wanted to reach 10 million women in 10 years. So I actually created a social initiative called 10 and 10, and it's going to culminate in 2030 at the Chase Center stage in San Francisco. Oh, you did a. Bhag.
0:14:45 - Betsy Jordyn
You did what Jim Collins called a BHAG.
0:14:48 - Karen Laos
Yes, yes absolutely, and it's so true how that energizes me every day. And then you know it is when things are reinforced in the good, when people say, oh my gosh, that made an impact on me or whatever it might be, then it continues to reinforce. Yes, this is making a difference. Keep going, especially during the hardest days of all.
0:15:09 - Betsy Jordyn
Yes, and I think that it's like when you're in the right zone, like that is when the right stuff attracts. But I think even when people start getting into that, it's hard for people to figure out that zone. Like that's what I do all the time. But let's get into pricing. Yeah, we just met on LinkedIn, like a week ago. So Karen had like liked a comment that I did. I saw like something that she did. I'm like I like you, and then I saw that she had posted something about like I talk about. Like pricing and negotiations are my favorite things to talk about. I'm like I want to have her on my show. We literally just met through LinkedIn. Linkedin is not a cesspool, if you, unless it's not a cesspool, it's an opportunity for you to meet cool people. So you know, just a little sidebar.
0:15:56 - Karen Laos
I think that needs to be the lead to your or my next post.
0:15:59 - Betsy Jordyn
Linkedin is not a cesspool yeah, it doesn't have to be via like our human on it, like you know, like, yeah, there's like gross sales people like I really get pissy. I want to, like I really want to correct everybody who sends me like the those cold call things and it's like, hey, I want to meet. I really want to correct everybody who sends me like the those cold call things and it's like, hey, I want to meet you, and then there's a cold call. I'm like you don't want to meet me. You know like forget it, like no, I don't want to, but anyway, so LinkedIn's unassessable. We meant this way.
But we're here to talk about pricing. And you know, and I really want to talk about, like, what is it about pricing? Like the psychology of it, the experience of it, like what is it about it that creates so many, so much angst for consultants and coaches? I know you work with women primarily, but my clients are consultants and coaches are men and women and they're at a variety of different stages. And I would tell you, people who are just starting, pricing creates angst. People who are ready to level up, pricing creates angst. What is it about pricing that is like such the oh that people have?
0:16:56 - Karen Laos
I would say the first thing is that we weren't taught how to talk about money for most of us as kids. We all have a money story, and that's the thing that I would invite anybody to first think about is what is the money story that you had? How did you grow up? I grew up very frugally, and I promised myself in high school that when I grew up I would have nice things, because my dad would duct tape the car together, for example. I mean, he was. He worked on all of our cars, he was a railroad engineer, like everything was about do it yourself, and so to this day, it's still hard for me to hire other people, like I'm still working through some of these things. So I also want to be really full disclosure that I think there's, there's always things that we can be working on, and so part of it is this anxiety of even being able to decide. That part of it is are we open to owning our worth? And then is it were we taught to actually be okay with pricing?
There's so many emotions that go along with pricing, and so when we can separate the emotion and I had a wonderful coach years ago that gave great advice that I'll never forget this because it was so helpful. He said people's ability to pay or not pay has nothing to do with your worth. It's all about either what they have literally to pay you they may not actually have it or, it's probably even more importantly, it's what people see as the value. And he also used a great example that and he was from Tennessee and he goes there are tons of trailer parks in the area where I live and you know what else are in those trailer parks Huge satellite dishes and really nice cars. People will find money for the things that they want to pay for, that they prioritize. So that's another thing to keep in mind, because I've seen a lot of people lower their prices or adjust their pricing because they think that somebody can't afford it. And sometimes that might be true, but the truth is I have seen, you know, I had a client once that said I want to work with you so much. I mean she said your rate is more than half of my paycheck per month, but I want to work with you so much because I know that it's going to change my life. Now that was a huge compliment.
I have to admit, I felt kind of guilty on the back end like, please don't do that, don't do that. There was a part of me that's thinking don't put half of your paycheck on this. And yet it was so interesting to me the difference between that and then somebody else going oh, I just don't have the money for that, and then they go out and buy other things. And so I think this is also a good reminder for all of us that just decide what your prices are and stick to them. Or if you're going to scale with people's budget and obviously it all depends on what people are selling and there's so many factors involved but the biggest thing that I've learned is being really clear that if you are going to work with someone's budget, then to make sure that you scale appropriately, you don't just lower your rates because, yeah, because you feel bad or you don't have the either the confidence, the courage or the tools to be able to say what you need to say.
0:20:12 - Betsy Jordyn
I think this is why I had Jack Phillips on the show a couple episodes ago where we talked about the ROI.
And I think that a lot of times where we're not seeing it is people are not. If you see, I'm just selling like coaching hours or workshops or packages or something along those lines, or your time, you know you're thinking like your price is associated with what you're offering and you're not connecting the dots that really your pricing is connected to the transformation that your client is getting and that's where the ROI is, and so it's not about you, it's about your behavior. Changes like their behavior, not your behavior changes their behavior changes.
And I think a lot of times when people push back on the pricing where they don't invest, it's because it's their own anxiety. Like I find it interesting in my work is people who have a lot of anxiety where it's like around, like helping them get clarity and confidence in their message, like they'll hesitate, and wrestle, and wrestle, and wrestle, because they know, if they're gonna do the work with me, that this is gonna be like a moment of truth, like I'm gonna have to see my value. I'm gonna step up.
No problem signing it. Like I have a team who does visual branding, a logo, Like no problem. Like they don't ask for like payment plans on the logos, you know, or the website design. They're like cool, but it's like oh, because I think it's a lot about the confidence in themselves. So I think that that's one part is like really getting clear. There is a little bit of like the mindset that you said in the money story but there's also a logical thing on the clarity.
0:21:33 - Karen Laos
Absolutely, it's a little mix of both, yes, yes, and probably because I work with so many people who have the that lack the confidence around how to communicate their value. So part of it is the internal work and then a big part of it is and where I really. I mean, I love both sides, the internal as well as the external, but sometimes it's a simple oh my gosh, I would have never thought to say that. So a big part of the work that I do is give people the language and the phraseology to be able to walk into those conversations with confidence.
0:22:04 - Betsy Jordyn
What's interesting, too, is like also looking at your money story and what did you learn about money and what did you learn about value, like, as you're talking about it. It's interesting as I've been on this kick on my podcast, where it's like I've been honoring all these people who've influenced me and how I think about strategic partnerships and aligning yourself to create more value and that's how you make more money. But as you're talking about it, I'm like oh, I learned this from my dad. Like, my dad was this like and we like, and I remember like before my. So my dad was like this incredible shoe man, so my grandparents had like this chain of shoes all around Chicago.
And my dad was like the worst businessman. Like he was a horrible businessman. He took one of the stores and, like you know, like went straight bankrupt on that, but he was a great salesman. And so he wound up like in sales, and when he died, his entire funeral was filled with all of his customers.
Like and I saw customer after customer and when he died I before he died, not when he died before he died you know, when you're in all of the deep talk time when you have a parent who's dying, it's like okay, I am like I want to understand, like what is your philosophy around sales? Cause I want to like capture it and this is what he told me, what he does. So when, let's say, somebody comes to the store and they said I want to get like a work pump or something like that, so he's like I pay a really close attention to the person and what they're like their style, and then he's like I never come out with just the work pump or what they asked me for. I always come back with like tons of other options and opposing categories Like I might get him a strappy sandal for something fun, I might get him like a flat and you know that all relates.
So people might come in for one shoe and they come out with four and like and it's like. So that's how he makes more money and his clients love him because he really paid attention to them. They they felt seen, like. Why people kept going back to my dad is because he made them feel like, cared for, known and all of that kind of stuff.
And I think that this is the behind, this is like this is where the root like I never I didn't make the connection as clearly until you said it here, this is how I make more money is. It's about creating value, you know. But the problem that I have is sometimes like I keep wanting to add more value, but I don't always like increase, like I just keep wanting to like you can get this and you can get this and I'll do this for a bonus. So it's like how do you have? So? Anyway, that's a secondary question, but the first one is like I think there is a money story behind all of us that goes beyond just the immediate. So what are you? What are some tips or reflection questions that somebody could ask to say, now, where can I tap into like my history good, bad, otherwise of like what actually helps me from a confidence in my pricing and what's hindering me? Like, what are reflection questions that you would ask, you would offer to my audience?
0:24:44 - Karen Laos
One would be as simple as what did I learn from my parents about money? And it doesn't mean that they taught you something specifically. Like I will say with my parents, they didn't. They were actually very private about their finances. It was interesting my mom used to do the taxes on the table and she had all of the forms out, and when we would walk through the kitchen she'd kind of go like there was basically an assumption you don't look at the table, and so they didn't specifically say here's what you need to do with money and here's how you invest. That is definitely not what they taught us, and yet they taught us through modeling, especially about the frugality piece of getting the best deal and buying all the toilet paper and all the Kleenex or whatever. So think about the things that they explicitly taught you, and then about the things that they explicitly taught you, and then also the things that you learned that you didn't even realize. So that can be. One thing is just simply to reflect on that, and then a way to get there in a deeper way too, is to go.
What was it like when I was with my parents and we were at the store even whether it's a grocery store or another store and just start noticing it's so good to just start going. What was their relationship with money, what did they value, what did they buy or what did they save or did they save at all? All of those things can really help a lot and I would say that's a good place to start. And then things that just start unraveling that I think are so fascinating for me. Part of my story is that I had to break the ties of feeling like, if I make, like if I'm considered somebody of means or wealth, for example, which is not how I grew up that that is almost abandoning my family of origin, and that was a challenging thing to work through, or just not even challenging. It was more. I had no idea that was going on for me.
So almost hanging on to well, you know I'm going to be in the bargain basement because that's where you know the down to earth people are and even being able to see that you know it's actually possible to the down to earth people are and even being able to see that you know it's it's actually possible to be a down to earth, relatable, approachable person and make a lot of money. And for me, I want to make a lot of money because I want to help a lot of people, not because I'm after money. It's about what money can do, so that's. Another thing, too is I would invite people to say what, if you like with your pricing, like what? What will money enable you to do? As may as maybe obvious as that sounds, why do you want to make money in the first place?
0:27:24 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, I think it's like really it's because I think that a lot of people, when they hit the, hit the top of their profession and it's like all right, I hit success. Now I want significance.
And it's like I feel like I have to choose, you know, like I can't have both and it's like you can't have both, but it's like you do need to be careful about. Like, just money, for no apparent reason. Like I remember, when I first started my consulting business, I, you know my intention was to be with my kids when they were young, and so I I didn't. I made a lot of money and I had a lot of pressure from male mentors who were like double your revenue, double your revenue.
I'm like, why am I doubling my revenue? My point was is I wanted time. Freedom at that stage was more important, you know, and it's like it's really figuring out, like what's the energy of money supposed to do for you? Like, maybe you're supposed to be the steward that is going to give a lot of money away. Maybe you don't need as much money, you know, as you think you do, because money used to be status in your old world, and so I think that there's a lot of stuff in there. I think I would add one reflection question to your list of questions.
It's like when you think about, like what's your money story? What did you learn from your parents and your family of origin, like plus or minus, and what are you projecting on your clients and how they're thinking about the money?
0:28:36 - Karen Laos
Because from my standpoint.
0:28:39 - Betsy Jordyn
What I think I do when I put the pricing in front of my clients is I'm not asking them to invest in me, I'm asking them to invest in themselves and their future vision, and so that's where it's like they have to put the. They're putting their intention. What you said decide and declare, like you decide and declare is when you invest in it, and I think that's where they have the hesitation. And when we're consultants and coaches who are helping people with transformation, we have to understand the fear of the unknown that our clients are having. That literally has nothing to do with the pricing. You could put a package for $2,000 in front of a client $5,000, $10,000, $20,000, and the emotions are the same, like even if you keep discounting it down to like $500, would you spend $500 on this? Like you know?
0:29:28 - Karen Laos
because if I put money in it, you're like, now I'm in it, yes, yes, it's so true, it's. It's so interesting, isn't it? Because we can only be in our own heads, we can make assumptions about others, we can obviously ask questions to understand, which, of course, I would highly recommend, but at the end of the day, we default to these mores or things that we, the way we operate, and we often don't think about. Like I remember somebody who told me and I think because of my dad as the flea market guy and all the things of negotiating, I just have always loved the deal and for me it's really fun to make a deal, and whether it's at a garage sale, for example, I remember having that realization many years ago or negotiating for a car in a car lot many years ago, or negotiating for a car in a car lot, but this idea of just, is it the deal that you're more excited about and the part about just the I don't know what? It would almost like the game I hate to say it for the lack of a better word or is it truly okay? We're exchanging a price here and, like I don't know what I was going to say, I got off target.
That somebody said to me once Karen, there are people that don't care about a discount. They don't want, they don't value a discount. They actually might think that a discount cheapens the product or the service. And that was mind blowing to me because I grew up with you got to get the deal, you got to get the deal. Everybody loves a deal and that was fascinating even to consider that there are people out there that really don't care about that. So that was one example where I was blown away by how different we can be.
0:31:06 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, and I think too, it's like like there is different ways that people think. Like I had one of my worst clients ever. He came I, he came from a referral who, somebody I really had to kind of please. This is when I was in my consulting days and he just wanted me to.
He just kept pushing me, and, pushing me, and pushing me to get my pricing down, just for the sake of you know he wants the deal Like he needed to win If I started the if I had the, if I offered it, if I knew this psychology about him, if I had the price at a hundred thousand dollars and like, let's say, I really wanted it to be 80,000 and I put it at a hundred thousand and then he like bang, you know like, kept pressuring me to get it done to 80,000. He would have felt like he walked away with a deal, you know like, so some of it, just because he just needed to get the deal and but but somebody kind of pressures you that way. He was the worst client I've ever had, like his name is Kent.
And I, I, but he, he got me my fire to start marketing and it's like I really started like marketing harder because I had a mantra like I need to replace Kent because he was just as bad, you know, and I think that sometimes when you have a client who is not valuing you in the sales process, they're not going to value you in the coaching engagement, the consulting engagement, and so that is like important data points like you you.
I think that there's two sides of it is like my money story is is having a, an experience with somebody else's money story and we have to see, like, does our money stories kind of match? And then the other thing, you know, like I oh, I'm gonna, I'm going to proclaim something on the show with you as my witness, for the first time I have just I have decided I want to write my first book and I want to write it on the heroic journey of starting your own consulting or coaching business, cause I see that this is something like the, the tactics of like building a business and working through the pricing isn't just about the business, it's like it's a healing thing for yourself, like I think that's a lot of the stuff that you're talking about is.
This is all the playground of this other work that you're going through.
And and I think that that's like one, like one set of questions I wanted to get with. I wanted to ask you but I think we're kind of getting there is what's on the other side, I think on the other side of really dealing with your mind, your money, the pricing issue isn't just about like how much money am I going to make, how many deals am I going to land, but it's really a different kind of like transformation of your own land, but it's really a different kind of like transformation of your own money crap, you know, and your own issues, would you?
0:33:33 - Karen Laos
concur with that. Oh my gosh, yes, well, and I was thinking about can I share an example that something that came out of my mouth that surprised me during a deal. It's okay, I I wasn't sure where you wanted to take this next, but I was on a call where I had pitched my. I wasn't pitching in the moment. I had already mentioned in advance like I was introduced. It was a referral corporate business person wanted to an HR person who wanted to have me coach their CFO and she was looking at a few coaches and then when I said my price because she asked, of course, well, what do you charge? And then when I said she goes, oh like well, there was definitely a dramatic pause. And then I you know we're all taught that you're supposed to wait and be the one to not speak first, but I often will wait for a little bit, and then I have found what has been successful for me is to say how does that land for you? Because I find that that question gives people permission to share how it lands, and I've found people very transparent, rather than often what we do is we say our price, we're taught to pause, then move on and we don't know really how they thought about it, unless they for sure say yes, but oftentimes it just goes away and we never hear from them again or they ghost us or who knows what. But in this case it was such a really fun exchange because she said, wow, well, that's definitely a much higher price point than the other coaches we were looking at. That's definitely a much higher price point than the other coaches we were looking at. And I don't know what hit me in that moment Betsy, this is not a phrase that I had planned, but I just said I recognize I'm higher than most, and that's it. And so to me, that was this moment where I thought, oh my gosh, I've started to embody this confidence now, and this was years ago, and how exciting it was. And then I said after that, is this a deal breaker? And she said absolutely not. I believe in the right fit, that we can work something out. So it also depends on the person that you're talking to on the other side, and a lot of times we don't know that until we say a thing or two in the conversation and they respond Like in this case it could have been somebody else that said, no way, we don't have budget and then that's it.
Or in her case it was let's collaborate, let's figure this out. I'm sure there's a price we can agree to. And the beautiful thing when she came back to me I just have to say one more thing just to close the whole loop here is that she said here's what I've got. How do we need to scale your services for that? And they only came down a few thousand. So it was not. It was. It was still very, a very respectable amount. And the beautiful thing is how considerate she was to even say what do we need to scale back to do it for this price? Because that's what I have. It was a beautiful change.
0:36:39 - Betsy Jordyn
And I think it's like the way you showed up, like I think clients, when they're investing in somebody, they want to hear like I know exactly how to help you, like I'm here and it's not even about my price, like I know exactly how to help you, like there's that phrase, or like I'm not rich enough to go cheap on anything. And I think that by having the confidence like this, it's not really about the price. It's like it's having that confidence that there's a price value and then I'm going to get a bigger return I had.
So you and I are so like, it's so crazy. And, by the way, did you know? I have like a master's in HR. You know like, and that's my background, it's like HROD is like my background, it's like we have a lot of similarities but anywho, so I did so I had a similar thing.
So when, about 15 years ago, I had launched like my big, my first big business, my consulting business, I, my new amazing website was out, I got a lead like right after that and I had a client who came from a referral and I think something about like working on the website like really changed my confidence about like the value of what I did and they handed me. So, as for this executive development program or like a workshop, they handed me my competitor's proposals and meet it or beat it. You know, if you could meet it or beat it, the job is yours. So at that time it was like a two day, two day workshop for like 7,500 was my competitor and I looked at what was on the competitor. I'm like this is like this is not the right solution, like their client is not going to get any value.
So I put together a proposal like, like this is actually going to solve your problem. Because all they were looking at is like what's the, what was the, the, the need, the request, like the workshop. I was asking questions around like, well, what's the point of this? And they're like well, we're not. You know, this was like the 2010 ish time period. Like we're not growing anymore from organically, we're growing from mergers and acquisitions. Like we need executive talent on tap to put into these new acquisitions, that so that we could further that. I'm like well, that's a different conversation. So I put a proposal together to achieve that goal. So I think at that time, I think my that initial proposal was like I don't know, I want to.
I want to say like 35,000, maybe 40. I don't remember very different from what the initial one was. And the client was like oh my gosh, are we going to like have to break the bank to work, work, work with Betsy? Something came over me in that moment and I think this is where the pricing confidence came in is like hey, that other guy is an expense to be managed. Like I'm an investment that will deliver a return. And they signed immediately. It was like bam, they're like. And then they signed up for a second one. And then they referred me to another company who was needing the same type of thing. And you know, and that's when my business really started kicking off. And so when people say like oh, you know, websites make no difference, I'm like you're wrong. Like, first off, the website made a difference, because when I boldly stood in front of them, I had a website to back me up with a bunch of testimonials.
0:39:20 - Karen Laos
And like I had my.
0:39:22 - Betsy Jordyn
I had my credibility there, but the process of working through, like my copy and what I was all about, I got the confidence from within and that's what gave me the confidence. So I think, like pricing, when people do pricing and they put it outside of the entire ecosystem of what you're doing, I think that's when it's a problem, like when you treat pricing like a salary negotiation, like I have a job, rather than I'm a business owner who sells services that happen to be consulting or coaching related. That creates a remarkable value and then you have the confidence to say, no, I'm here to get a return.
I know you don't, I know I'm optional Everything we do is unless you're like subcontracting for something that's in an organization, everything we do is optional. So we have to be able to connect the dots, like and I think that's where the confidence comes in Like I know exactly how to help you. I have the exact right solution. I know this will work. And then, if they push back, maybe your fees are too high, maybe it's that they're just not ready to invest in themselves.
And then you have to respect that. Like I was mentioning, like I want to write a book, I have to. If I'm really going to write a book, I probably should invest in a book coach of some kind. By the way, if you're a really good book coach, you know and you have something. I'm just giving you little hints that I'm an ideal client that you might want to reach out to. But anywho, but this is, but you, you put this growth container that is what we provide is a lot of times like, I think, with your mastermind. It's a growth container for people who want to?
level up their, their impact and their, their voice and their income Like that's a growth container. I think you call it like powerhouse or power. The powerhouse, yeah, the powerhouse, yeah, it's not about like people are not paying for how many sessions they get the you know the resources that they're providing, or even access to you that they're from spending money on the container.
0:41:14 - Karen Laos
Yes, yes, that's a beautiful way to say it. So true, so true.
0:41:20 - Betsy Jordyn
Can we get into one thing real quick about pricing models? Of course, one of the things that you and I chit chatted back and forth on before we had this call is how much we are not fans of the trading time for money model and how we're more into the pricing for value. So tell me about, like, why do people trade time for money in this field and what's the limitation of it, and how do you get into, like, different ways of thinking about how you are pricing in terms of more value?
0:41:53 - Karen Laos
ways of thinking about how you are pricing in terms of more value. Oh, it's such a prominent question and it is amazing how so many of us are just I feel like this is where we can often get stuck and the I mean I'm actually curious from your perspective, betsy, if I could throw it back at you, because I want to answer this question, but I'm curious what do you mostly see with your clients with some of these challenges?
0:42:14 - Betsy Jordyn
What I feel like that I deal with hence the name of my book is I feel like people haven't made the complete transition from employee to business owner and I think that there's an employment model and I do work and I get compensated for it, like I get you know, even if you're a salaried worker, you're still your, your compensation is still tied to time you know, and it's still tied to like activities, and so I think a lot of times like this is why I'm this is why I'm passionate about what I do is I provide that growth container in between like your career and your business, so that you can kind of like work through those issues, so that you can come out on the other end.
But I'll tell you, nine out of 10 business coaches will just tell you you don't have to waste time, there's no ROI and clarity and your clarity and confidence in what you do. There's no ROI, that's squishy, and they'll say just go out and get clients and it's like that is not a sustainable strategy.
Like yes you can just go out and work your network to go find a potential job person you know like a potential employer. That is not a sustainable hustle kind of thing and you're going to wind up recreating your career and your job and then you're going to hate your work and reduce scope in order to have an equitable energy exchange.
0:43:34 - Karen Laos
Because that's really what pricing is Pricing what.
0:43:36 - Betsy Jordyn
I learned in my years at Disney it's like pricing is about price value. What I get and what I pay for and what I get is equal, that's an equity thing. Again, you know, like that's an equity thing and the there's a difference in the kind of conversation that you said you had is like hey, how do I want to work with you, but this is too high. Can we reduce the scope?
And that's a different kind of discussion than a salary negotiation. I want you to pay me $200,000. You want to pay me 150,000. Let's meet in the middle at 175,. You know, and and so now you're. That's why I think people get stuck in that one and then they don't know another way. And then they start having these panic attacks of like I should already know how to do this, Like I can't break out of this because now I got to, I got to like break.
No, I don't feel confident anymore, so I'm just going to keep doing the same thing over and over again.
0:44:26 - Karen Laos
Mm. Hmm, yeah, exactly, I do think it's the system of, and not to be the one that, like, blames the system, cause I don't believe that we need to be victims of anything, but it's looking at like what, how do most people look at it? And because it's different to, we have to educate our clients or potential clients and really being able to say, would it matter? Like if I could solve this problem for you in five minutes. I mean let's just say like if we look at I don't know a health coach or something that says I can solve your health problem in five minutes, but would you rather pay me per hour, I mean, it's just, it's so interesting to me because sometimes a client will get the result that they need in much less time, but in their they think, yeah, but I haven't spent the entire amount of hours. So I do think that it's a huge psychological thing to help people get over.
But this is where it comes back to communication. How good are we at communicating our value to help them understand the ROI? And if we're not, if we just kind of and I'll admit that I've been, I would call it a little bit lazy sometimes of traditionally, when I have a charge per hour and I think going back to in jobs that I've had where it's okay, I'm billed out for X amount of hours and then we're sitting there going okay, we've got 10 more minutes in this session where it just feels like we've already accomplished what we need to. We don't need to sit there. It's like elongating a meeting when you've already accomplished the purpose of the meeting. But it is fascinating to me how it is such a what, if it's like that, pushing the boulder up the hill, that we have to be as savvy as possible in helping other people understand, like here's why it's the value over the hours, but people are.
I think it's also really important because I have a very how should I call it? Just very matter of fact friend who's head of sales for a company and she said Karen, I don't care how much you've talked about value, any CEO is going to be dividing that amount by the amount of hours that we're talking about, or months, and they're not. It's just so interesting. So that is a good. I feel like I hold that in the back of my head, that, yes, that is true, and at the same time we can't be focused on that like energetically almost, even though I don't always talk about, like the energy of things, but it's focusing on helping people see, here is the direction that we could be going and this is how this is going to serve you more and it's that you know that classic. I don't know if this was a true story, I feel like I've heard it in different formats, but you're going to tell the Henry Cloud.
0:47:10 - Betsy Jordyn
I mean not Henry Cloud, henry Ford.
0:47:12 - Karen Laos
Is it? Well, I was thinking about the first time I heard it was it was a ship. There was something broken on a ship and the ship couldn't go. So they call this guy, comes in and spends yeah, like five seconds. Yeah, whatever it ever it is, and then they get the invoice for thousands of dollars.
0:47:38 - Betsy Jordyn
You were only here for a minute, it's like, well, that's how long it took. I mean, it was just. I feel like that's such a good demonstration of that. But think about this though so like, in terms of the client's best interest, you know you're if you charge, so like. So, basically, what they're saying is a junior person who does not have your years of experience should actually be worth more, because it takes them longer to achieve the same result that you did because of your expertise, and so like, like. I think there's a couple of pivot points for me. What I help my clients with, and I'm I'm I'm starting this group coaching program called the impact and income accelerator. It's all around like teaching this like partnership set of approach.
But what I? Call it in the discovery meeting is the pivot where you move a client from wants to needs and you get them to articulate very clearly what it is that they're trying to achieve not the methodology, but their goals and the value of achieving their goals. They articulate it and then you can say well, what's have more of the permission to look at?
values-based fees, if a client asks you like I want you to design and deliver X and you say sure thing I'll do. You know, whatever it is, they're putting you in that service provider. So they're comparing service provider to service provider.
0:48:43 - Karen Laos
But you can change the conversation.
0:48:45 - Betsy Jordyn
by changing the conversation, you have to change the conversation. By changing the conversation, you have to change the conversation and then you can start establishing it.
One of the things I say to my clients when I'm on intercalls is like you're not paying for my time because you know like, especially when you're dealing like with the work I do, like because there's so much clarity and you know this, like in the work you do as well, it takes a little while. Some people like they can get to ideal client clarity or they can get into clarity on their strengths or that kind of thing like that.
0:49:09 - Karen Laos
Some people takes longer.
0:49:11 - Betsy Jordyn
So, my job is. As long as you hang with me in the work, you know you're paying for the outcomes You're not paying for my time. You're not paying for my time. I have no interest in paying for your time. That's why you have access to me between sessions, because I want you to have your questions answered.
And I think that that's the mindset. To me, the game changer around the pricing is like I see the value, I can connect the dots between what I do and the outcomes and I recognize my client is not investing in me. They're investing in these outcomes and they're just putting faith in me that I could get them there Like. And that's where the communication comes in.
0:49:46 - Karen Laos
Can we talk?
0:49:46 - Betsy Jordyn
about the communication. I know you and I, I could talk to you forever, but I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to leave without tapping into your communication expertise. So it's like some, it's a lot of the stuff we've been talking about is the mindset, the roi mindset, but it's like what's the communication strategies. Like what do you use? So we already talked about. Like what do you do if somebody says like what are the fees? You know if your fee's too high.
But what do you say ahead of time to say like, here's what my pricing is? You know, you've said a couple other tips that are amazing, like how does this land and that type of thing Amazing? What else would you say from a communication standpoint?
0:50:20 - Karen Laos
I would recommend, first of all with the mindset piece. I want to finish on that. Just say one other thing around it, like getting comfortable, practicing. So thinking about it also from a communication standpoint is practice the conversation with somebody else. Record it on video, watch it back so that you can see and hear, because ultimately you've got to own your pricing. And owning it to me really means that you embody that feeling of. This is what I know to be true. I'm not going to be wavering or waffling, and if you are going to adjust your fees in the moment, then be darn clear in advance of how you're gonna do that. And one of the best examples I'll give you one very specific, and I've used this a lot and ultimately, the bottom line is be a partner with your client and collaborate, just like you did with that example where you saw what their need was, but you don't really know what that is until you have that conversation. And that's where it's also challenging when people just go well, what is your price? Now? I don't want to shy away from price, but I do think that there is often an education that people need before they get there, otherwise they will immediately close themselves off to that opportunity. So, for example, most of what I do is keynote speaking somebody.
I was on the call. They always ask you know I shouldn't say they. Many people ask your rate on an email. And then, of course, the next step so this is my first strategy is to make sure that you get them on the phone whenever possible and even to just say could we? I would really love, before we talk about fees, I'd love to understand what you're looking for, because I don't know yet what problem you're truly trying to solve. And until we get on the phone, would that work for you? Then we get on the phone. I'm thinking about this one in particular. So she immediately, right at the beginning, just said OK, can you just tell us your fees? And I said I promise you I'm not shying away from the fee, but I truly do want to understand more. So then I said could you start? Could we start by talking about the event? And then I promise I will tell you my fee and based on what your needs are. So they, we started talking and we start getting building a relationship, building trust. Very quickly.
By the end of this conversation I had helped them with which speakers to choose how much to and I, and even just collaborating on the fact of making sure that it's equitable. I mean, it was so interesting to me because the simple act of building the relationship made such a difference and I said well, here's what I charge, based on what you're saying, and if you're, I know you want to bring in these other two speakers. It sounds like we could all mesh beautifully. My big thing and I was very honest too. I said the only thing that I would ask is that we are all paid equally based on our expertise. In other words, I said I think it would be very hard for me to be at that event, knowing that someone else was paid more than me. When we have, you know, we're offering a similar value set. So that is one of the examples that I would offer and think about them as a partner and a collaborator. Rather than ooh this person, I have to tell them my fee, and there's all this fear and anxiety around it.
0:53:35 - Betsy Jordyn
I think that, like I feel like you did the strappy sandals. You know, like my dad's strappy sandals example. You know like, yeah, they might've asked for a pump, but you're like you know I could also help you figure out your speakers. You know, like, strategize your event, you know, so you're like you're making more or making a better, better relationship because you really paid attention is like, oh, I know you want heels for work, but you also want strappy sandals. You know, like I think for work, but you also want strappy sandals. You know, like I love that. I think we could use this as a thing. You know, like the strappy sandals.
0:54:06 - Karen Laos
You know approach, I think that's. And your story about your dad. That's so brilliant. And I used to sell shoes back in the day in high school. Oh, shut up, remember that we were taught to bring out other options, that's her.
0:54:17 - Betsy Jordyn
Like you know more stuff in common all the time. When I help my clients one-on-one through like their proposal, stuff is like you never, ever talk about pricing in the discovery meeting. You have your proposal. You have to like, go away and think about it, and the way I handle it is I would say, you know, I, like I, I. What I want to do is make sure I come up with the exact right solutions. I'm going to knock it out of the ballpark.
For you, that represents like a tremendous ROI and equitable compensation. For me. Let me go away and think about exactly what I would recommend and then we'll talk about the pricing. It's too premature because I don't know exactly what you need yet and you don't know exactly what you need, and so that's where we take that break. You know, when we figure that out. All right, you and I have been talking for a long time and I know we've got to close this thing up and I don't want to, but we do have to. So we talked about a lot of things, from about pricing, from mindset, strategy, communication. Is there anything else that you want to share with me? And I'm just not asking you the right question.
0:55:28 - Karen Laos
Oh, thank you. I would say the biggest thing is to trust yourself, for anybody listening really know that whatever you offer, just you have value for and what you're offering has value. So don't undercut yourself. Really be mindful, trust what you know you need to say and do and go after it perfect.
0:55:54 - Betsy Jordyn
All right, tell me more. Tell everybody how they can get a hold of you. Tell them about your free guide. Tell them about your powerhouse mastermind that's coming up in January. All the things, all the things.
0:56:06 - Karen Laos
So, number one, my website is a great place to reach me and learn more, and that's Karen. That is L-A-O-S, like the country, and I am on Instagram and LinkedIn almost daily, so you can find me there Karen Laus official on Instagram, Karen Laus on LinkedIn. And I do have a for those of you that are wondering if you have anything in your language that might be getting away, giving away your power, such as things like words like just and little. I just want to share a little tip with you, versus I want to share a tip with you.
I have a PDF guide for anybody that is free on my website to learn more about those nine words to avoid and what to say instead. And then, yes, I have. Well, I also have a podcast for anybody that would like to listen, called Ignite your Confidence, and that is for women in leadership primarily, but the concepts are universal to all genders. And, lastly, the powerhouse is a mastermind, specifically with 12 women max, and that is coming up in the new year, somewhere in the not even sure exactly when we're going to launch it yet, but probably at the end of January and that's a six month program to help you to negotiate, speak with power and lead with presence.
0:57:24 - Betsy Jordyn
Amazing. So it feels like from an action standpoint everybody. You've got like a couple different options of how you want to like really level up in this particular area. Definitely, if you really want to build the confidence from the inside out, like Karen program seems like perfect for you, especially if you're a woman in leadership or as an entrepreneur, you could definitely check out my Impact and Income Accelerator. If you're looking for right now help to level up your impact and your fees and so much more, definitely check that out on my website, the Accelerator. But I think that what we're saying, what Karen and I are both saying that we would want to leave you with, is that you're the first sales really to yourself, you know, and then you can get to other people.
0:58:09 - Karen Laos
Oh my gosh, yes.
0:58:11 - Betsy Jordyn
And that's what I think that really at the end of the day. So, whatever it takes for you to make sure that the using the D's you know, like making sure that you're dreaming the right dream you are making decisions about it. You are declaring that this is what you want to do and the fourth D I just lost, do it?
0:58:28 - Karen Laos
Do it.
0:58:29 - Betsy Jordyn
Deliver it. You know, like, like that's what it all begins. But I think it all begins with like what's the right business for you? Don't settle for the stupid shit to ought to business. Don't sell yourself short under, uncover your money story where you might be doing it and really go after the impact and the income that you're capable of, without apology and without, like, just holding back. And I think that's what both of us are on that shared mission. So I think, did I yes, 100 percent.
0:58:58 - Karen Laos
Awesome.
0:58:58 - Betsy Jordyn
I love it.
0:58:59 - Karen Laos
I love it.
0:59:00 - Betsy Jordyn
So so that is it for today's show. If you enjoyed it, please definitely hit subscribe. Wherever you're listening, I'd love for you to rate or review it so that more consultants and coaches can find it. And until next time. Thanks so much for listening.
So here's my take Pricing confidence doesn't start with mindset alone. It actually begins with the numbers and the ROI mindset. So this is why I got so excited about bringing Jack Phillips on the show back in episode 131, because the reality is the first sale's always to yourself, and that starts with connecting the dots between what you do and the outcomes your clients get, because your clients aren't ultimately investing in you. They are investing in their own behavior changes, their team's behavior changes. That creates new outcomes for their businesses, their organizations and their careers. So I want you to think about a couple things. I want you to just ponder a couple questions. You know, where are you undervaluing yourself right now and what's it costing you and your clients? Are you clear on the transformation your clients get from working with you? And when you look at your current pricing in terms of the actual fee and your approach to pricing, does it reflect the value that you create or fear? All of this is exactly what we're gonna be diving into and helping you nail inside the Impacted Income Accelerator.
So I've been talking about my brand new eight-week group coaching program that is designed to give you literally everything you need to make that shift from transactional service provider to transformational strategic partner. That allows you to 10x your fees because you are 10x-ing your impact, starting with your very next client opportunity. So if you're thinking about this group, it starts October 14th, so we're down to the wire. So if you're interested, book a call with me and let's chat about it so you can learn more and apply at Jordyn.
Slash accelerator. One last thing about the accelerator, too it is a free bonus for my private clients, so if you've been on the fence about working with me, this is the time to sign up. So that's it for today's show. I'm not going to get into the accelerator anymore about pricing. I just hope that you walk away with just more of sparks of insight about really the value of what you create. So thank you so much for tuning in today. If this episode was helpful, make sure you subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode, and I'd love it if you leave a quick rating and review so that it can help other consultants and coaches find the show as well. So until next time, thanks.
