0:00:00 - Betsy Jordyn
Ever feel like you're almost there with your clarity on what you want your consulting or coaching business to be all about, but something is just not clicking, like you've got the expertise, maybe a solid offer, but you're still second guessing your direction, your messaging or even who your business is really for. Hey everyone, welcome to Consulting Matters. I'm your host, Betsy Jordyn, and today I am super excited to have Michelle Natalia Moore on the show. So Michelle is a Big Four equity partner turned digital well-being strategist, and if you've never heard that term, no worries, you're going to hear more about what that means.
Michelle and I spent a good part of 2024 together working on her business. So we worked on her brand positioning, her messaging, her visual branding and even an in-person photo shoot at my home. So one of the reasons why I wanted her on the show I wanted to give you a behind the scenes look into what it really takes to build a consulting or coaching business that is truly aligned with your purpose and your strengths, and how to do it in a way where you're free from that analysis paralysis and I know you know what I'm talking about because, as consultants or coaches, we're head people. And, speaking of analysis paralysis, I wanted her on the show because of what she specifically does, which is all about helping people like us who think for a living to get out of cognitive overwhelm not just stress, but a lack of brain power to focus and innovate. She's going to show you why our challenge is not our fault but what we can do about it, and a lot of it has to do with our relationship with tech, which she'll explain more about on the show. So, if you're ready to get those business ideas out of your head and into a brand that positions you for the clients and opportunities you want, and get it done without the spin and overthinking, this episode is for you.
So, without further ado, welcome to the show, michelle. I'm so glad to have you here. Thanks for having me, Betsy. So there's so much I want to get into with you about your whole business development journey, into what it means to be a digital well-being strategist and all the things that your business exists to do and serve. But I want to go back in time and talk a little bit about your background, because you have a super interesting background, both as a management consultant and an equity partner in the big four, and you did this all in all places like Russia. So can you bring us up to speed on your background?
0:02:30 - Michelle Natalya Moore
So the background is simply based on a penchant for adventure, probably more than anything else, and because of my interest in the East Block and my mom having escaped from East Germany when she was a child and my first trip at age 16 to East Berlin when it was still closed you had to take the day train there I was just fascinated with what the heck is this, this crazy place and the spy world and all of that. I love spy novels and that sort of thing. So I think that's probably what made me want to study Russian. But I can remember further back in my childhood that I felt a pull to the Russian composers because I was playing violin at an early age. So those two things, I think, drove my destiny to end up in Russia for 15 years, and so I studied Russian.
Then I did an MBA and I moved to Moscow. I had married a Russian colleague from my MBA program at the University of Houston and we got married in Houston and two weeks later we were on a plane to Russia and that was my choice. I didn't follow a husband, I wanted to go work in Russia, and so I landed at Pricewaterhouse at the time and started in one of those first practices that was building on the USAID funding and privatization and ended up in the performance improvement practice. And that journey led me to partnership in eight years and I ended up doing everything tech from SAP implementation to cybersecurity to human-centered tech change that whole digital transformation journey and I left in 2010 to move to Canada from Moscow. So I was in Moscow from 1995 until 2010 and then moved to Canada in 2010.
0:04:19 - Betsy Jordyn
So your first main job then, like your main career, has been in the management consulting. So it wasn't like you were a leader somewhere else and then fell into consulting. Consulting has been your path.
0:04:30 - Michelle Natalya Moore
You know I would say there were two jobs that were related to this journey before that.
So I did some of my studies at the University of Munich. I was raised as a bilingual child and spoke German, and so I did Russian studies at the University of Munich and then ended up landing a job at MTV Russian American joint venture called Space Commerce Corporation, led by Art Dula, the first American at Baikonur Cosmodrome, and we were. I was hired to run or project manage a science exhibition called Soviet Space that Art Dulo, my boss, had managed to contract for a tour on five museums, science museums in the US, so I became the project manager of that. It was staffed live with cosmonauts and other technicians from Russia, so I was bringing them in and I was liaising with the museum and responsible for these exhibits and the transport of the exhibits as it moved from from Austin to Fort Worth, to St Louis, to, etc. And so I got to know the fleet of Russian launch vehicles, I got to know about remote sensing data, all this technical stuff in the Soviet space world, and the office was 30 minutes away from NASA.
0:06:08 - Betsy Jordyn
I would love to talk so much more with you about the Russian side, because we do have that in common, as I did spend an early part of my career sending people on humanitarian trips to Russia. But I know I want to get a little bit more into your consulting background because I think a lot of people are like, wow, you were like doing these big projects, these transformations, and you were an equity partner. Did you leave PwC and go to Canada? Is that where you wound up in Ernst Young? Or did you wind up in Ernst Young some other part of your career?
0:06:40 - Michelle Natalya Moore
So I was back and forth. So I started at Pricewaterhouse before it became Pricewaterhouse Coopers and then, when I came back from maternity leave back to Moscow, I, you know, went to Houston to have my daughter and when I came back from maternity leave I got recruited by Ernst Young. So I switched firms. So I'd already made partner at Pricewaterhouse and then I switched firm or then it was already PricewaterhouseCoopers probably and I switched firms and ended up at Ernst Young and then also was recruited back to PwC. So it was a very competitive environment at the time in Russia because there was so much growth. And when I decided to finally leave Russia, I was just transferred from the Russian firm to the Canadian practice in Toronto in 2010.
0:07:32 - Betsy Jordyn
Got it, yeah. So some people who are listening might be thinking like, OK, so I know Betsy's going to get to asking you about how you went from this type of role into your own business. But they might be thinking in the back of their minds like like, oh my gosh, she's living the dream. Why would she give up like being an equity partner in these well-known firms to start her own thing? Like what was the driver for you to say I don't, I want to do something different.
0:07:59 - Michelle Natalya Moore
So I think the I was addicted to the adventure of being in a growing practice in Russia and when I transitioned to the more normal environment in Canada, frankly it was really boring, and so that is what caused me to start to explore what should I do next? And because of the shift to Canada, that was a very different culture. I had never lived in Canada and Canada ended up working leading a small tech company, a philanthropy tech company, doing software implementations of grant-making software for large philanthropic foundations in North America and in Britain, and I ended up joining that team to lead that team and I led that company to profitability, and that's where the transition out of that corporate life started, I would say.
0:09:12 - Betsy Jordyn
So it sounds like there's a couple things that are going on with you, like you have this overall life theme of adventure and growth and opportunity, and so you need things to be different. So there is something that makes sense from your standpoint is, in order for you to stay interested and engaged, it needs to have variety, change opportunities from that standpoint. And then it seems like there's this other side that was really developing around. You know, social justice in terms of business, like social entrepreneurship or something around like making a bigger difference than just from the financial standpoint. It sounds like those two things were going on at the same time and they were kind of coalescing to say I probably need to do my own thing.
0:09:52 - Michelle Natalya Moore
I think that's a great assessment. But what also happened in Russia is at the beginning, this building phase of these Western practices felt like you were really part of building a new economy, a more transparent economy, and giving opportunity to young Russians to explore a career in a big consulting firm. So that felt really purposeful.
Later, on when I was sitting on two boards of Russian oil companies as the risk advisor I wasn't like a board member, but I was a consultant sitting on the board I began to get that icky feeling oh my gosh, I am serving oligarchs and these are not good people, people.
So that is a contributing factor, and so, when it was so, I started to have this awareness about big business and also especially what the oil industry is doing, because our practice in Pricewaterhouse was driven by heavy metals and oil industry, and so when I came to Canada, there was so much or that would have happened had I come to the US too. But I was in the West after a 15 year absence, and I'm surrounded by news about sustainability and climate change and social purpose enterprise that I had just not been hearing in Russia. So I gravitated towards that because I thought I need to. You know, while I did good in Russia, I also feel guilty about serving, serving some bad, some bad Russian, american joint ventures that were driven by funding from oligarchs, and that's not a great feeling.
0:11:31 - Betsy Jordyn
So it's almost like the, the missional side of you is really on two levels, like. For you, it's not just about I want to make a difference with the people I work with, but I want everything I do to support and serve the common good. You know, and that was that part. So there's like two layers within the making a bigger difference. As well. As you're an adventurer at heart, you know you want to do your own thing and you have to have freedom which is definitely true about you Like and you have to have variety in order to stay interested. One goal is always let's not get bored.
0:12:00 - Michelle Natalya Moore
One goal is always, let's not get bored.
0:12:03 - Betsy Jordyn
Yes, so we've been working together, I think for over a year for sure. So I want to go back in time before you and I started partnering together and tell me a little bit more about what was going on in your business venture. I know you'd worked on some things during 2020 and some things got stalled out. What was going on in your business that that made you think like I probably could use some outside help?
0:12:27 - Michelle Natalya Moore
So I'll tell you, my pivot into midlife and into entrepreneurship happened in COVID, and the reason I'm so obsessed with this topic about our relationship with technology is because in COVID, I was all of a sudden forced to work online. So I had been doing facilitation, I was, you know, had a project in a collaborative tech company and all of a sudden, everything went online and it was Zoom after Zoom after Zoom and I became I literally became a Zoom addict without noticing it, and by July of 2020, from one day to the next, I get up from the dinner table and I can't move my right arm. I can't lift my right arm at all.
0:13:08 - Betsy Jordyn
I hadn't fallen down.
0:13:09 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Nothing had happened. Literally, I couldn't pick up the plate that I was going to take to bring inside because we were sitting outside on the patio and I couldn't lift my right arm. And, long story short, it turned out to be repetitive mousing was the cause. So it took me three months of resting from right-hand mousing I trained myself to left-hand mouse so I could still continue the work that I was doing. But I was amazed at my falling into that trap of I call it a Zoom addiction, because I literally accepted every invitation to speak to network because they were just proliferating. There was always something new coming out at the time. So that is when I discovered, oh wow, my relationship with technology isn't really healthy, especially physically. The pain I was in was just crazy.
And the pivot then started because I was in COVID. My contract finished mid-year and I was doing a little bit of freelance work but started to explore this question of how, as teams, are we in relationship with tech? How does that impact our productivity? That impact our productivity. So I joined a program to launch you know a brand, and I did that. I launched a service around B2B consulting for knowledge worker teams to help them design work for higher productivity without the burnout. So I piloted that, I tested it, I wrote half a book but I wasn't really committed.
And then this turmoil of moving again after another 15 years in Canada and moving to the United States, where I'd been absent for 35 years I hadn't lived in this country for 35 years, 35 years, I hadn't lived in this country for 35 years that brought on another exploration. So I call this the midlife exploring, I would say, because I really didn't have a clear strategy. I just had an inkling of there's something here about our relationship with tech. So I thought, ok, move to Orlando. We moved to Orlando and I joined Starter Studio because I thought you know, all of this stuff I've been testing and doing in this COVID period, which in Canada was like three years long, it was all just online. But better, put that IP, just put it in an app, just launch an app. So I went through Starter Studio and I'm so grateful to Starter Studio actually for saving me a lot of money because I did my customer interviews and it was the problem was validated.
But for me and my values, I thought I am going to be the biggest hypocrite if I actually create an app. So you could say I lost six months, but I also saved myself the headache of starting to hire a team to code something when my heart wasn't in it. And maybe somebody is going to do that, or maybe somebody is doing it already. I don't think it's a bad business idea, but it's just not right for me. I thrive by being in person with people, facilitating dialogue, and without that I am just not a full human.
So then the exploration continued until you know. So I ended up launching, because I didn't have a network in Orlando. I ended up launching the Orlando chapter of women in tech and entrepreneurship because I knew I wanted to be connected to that community, but I wasn't sure yet how, what that was going to do for me. And then, somehow, how did we meet? I don't even remember Betsy, but we met somewhere along the way. Ah, my colleague from Women in Tech, denise, introduced us, and then I thought well, maybe I just need to, you know, evolve further and explore a branding exercise, now that I am further along in my thought process and a little bit further along in realizing what my true purpose is at this stage in life.
0:17:09 - Betsy Jordyn
So what made you decide like you wanted to work with somebody individually, versus like just buying a course or doing a group program? Like why did you want like one-on-one support?
0:17:21 - Michelle Natalya Moore
I wanted one-on-one support because it's important to talk out ideas with a smart other human being who gets you, oh, thank you.
0:17:32 - Betsy Jordyn
So that's you right. I'm glad I know who get you.
0:17:35 - Michelle Natalya Moore
No, and, frankly, I wanted a woman, because a woman understands nuances that a man does not, and so it was that that drove me to seek out a business, a partner in this journey, to discover what the next iteration of my idea would be.
0:17:54 - Betsy Jordyn
And so Denise, who also has been a guest on the podcast and is one of my clients. You can learn more about Denise's story. I will put a link in the show notes and in the description if you are looking at my blog or if you're looking at this on my YouTube channel. But Denise had a really powerful moment in terms of figuring out her business model, similar to the big sticking point that you wound up in, which was I remember, like it took us several weeks to get through this. One is trying to decide do I want a B2B meaning business to business, working with organizations, organizations versus a business to consumer business, which is about working more with individuals who are going to hire you, working with people as private clients. What was it about that decision? That kind of was so difficult for you.
0:18:39 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Well, the decision was difficult because I don't think I knew what I'm good at, and so when I embarked on the decision to go business to consumer and only working with women which is what you and I walked through and initially built the brand on that. But I have pivoted back to B2B because I have realized that that is my world, that is my sweet spot, and I needed to go. Unfortunately, I needed to go through the uncomfortable testing again of a website, which is still great for the B2B pivot, but I had to launch with the B2C because I felt that that's, that was a year ago. That was authentic to me. I thought I should do something different in service of women, in service of women knowledge leaders. But the process of cultivating individual clients through marketing exercises laborious, long, arduous and then not feeling this energy that I get from a team. So I realized that working with a group of people is fundamental to me, feeling energized by my work and, yeah, I think that's how I would sum it up at this point.
0:20:08 - Betsy Jordyn
Can I push back on one thing that you said, though? I think marketing is only laborious as if at the end of the process isn't exactly what you want to do. You know and when you want to sell.
0:20:18 - Michelle Natalya Moore
True statement.
0:20:19 - Betsy Jordyn
Marketing is the same if you're going to B2B versus B2C. The only difference is you have to kind of understand the politics of how the B2B actually brings somebody in and their internal process and all of that kind of stuff. But the process is similar and I think what's interesting in your journey is trying to figure out. I think that nine times out of 10, as consultants or coaches, our ideal client is some version of a younger version of ourselves, and I think it's trying to figure out which younger version it was. Is it you and your midlife transition, or you as an equity partner trying to help this group of people? And it seems like it's a little bit of both. You know, in some ways is that there's a B2C component where you do the bringing the women together for an event versus working for a particular association. You know there's some of that. That's both. That's different versions of your previous self.
0:21:33 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Club and that is a place for mostly people to come together and so far it's just been women coming together. All of the events that I've done in this device-free environment have been for professional women to be able to have meaningful connection and dialogue as a community in this offline space. But the next iteration is to offer the Orlando Offline Club also to teams for their own mini retreats and workshops to create a safe space together to unplug and see what that does to innovation and ability to have productivity and redesign work processes for that benefit.
0:22:07 - Betsy Jordyn
So I love like the way you're describing it, because you are really leaning into that facilitation skills, the training, creating environments. Like that's a big reason why you purchased the home. That you did is so that you could have a retreat type of experience, and I love that you're just looking at it. It's almost like the same kind of thing for the same kind of audience is just with a tweak of purpose. You know, somewhere along those lines, like just a little bit. So that feels like you're just really hitting that sweet spot. Is you like to pass on this knowledge? It wasn't going to be in an app. It's not in the laborious Zoom, one-on-one coaching. It's live experiences where people can come together and interact without the devices.
0:22:49 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Correct. And I think there's this other component to the business in that it has a real social purpose mission as well, because my husband and I created a charitable foundation in Canada, when he closed his adoption agency, in service of vulnerable children and youth to protect them from digital harms like online sex trafficking, online bullying and the erosion of brain power that comes from unrestricted use of social media. And so the Orlando Offline Club, specifically, every piece of revenue that I generate in the Orlando Offline Club is going directly to the charity to serve vulnerable youth. So I also see myself.
I realize, you know, I was traveling recently in Asia and had a lot of time to reflect and realize, you know, I'm an advocate for children, but I'm also a bit of an activist, and I feel that I noticed that now, when I'm giving talks, that there's a bit of, there's just a desire to make people aware of this challenge we're all in, whether we realize it or not. We're in a challenge similar to I don't like to use this analogy similar to the cigarette industry, because we don't need cigarettes, we can get rid of cigarettes, but we need tech. And so there's this complaining in the marketplace about oh, I'm addicted to my tech. Well, we are all susceptible because of the business models of big tech, giving us dopamine hits and making us quote addicted.
But, unlike cigarettes. We don't want to quit tech. I am pro-tech. We need tech to solve the world's problems. We need AI to do things more efficiently, but we need to be in an intentional relationship with tech, otherwise we're going to suffer on multiple levels and vulnerable children are going to suffer even more. So it's an interesting place to be, because I think I'm part of a fairly small group on this planet talking about this problem, and I feel strongly that I have a capability to add a voice to this and to talk about it from different perspectives, and that is what's energizing me at this moment.
0:24:59 - Betsy Jordyn
So I love this because you're really looping back to your intentions, why you wanted to do your own thing. You know, one thing is still about the adventure. The second part is still about making a difference, but when I was saying more for the common good, it's really this activist side, that you want to use your voice and your platform to create awareness of this particular thing and, just like some thought leaders are wanting to create awareness on cyberbullying or other really important things, you're bringing awareness to this particular thing. I love that and I love that your intentions are becoming more and more realized. Like over the years of working with you, like I could feel you're going from the confusion, like I don't know, Betsy, which way are we going to go to this grounded state.
I want to just highlight one other aspect of your business build process because I did start to see a shift in you, like in a. This is a deeper level, the shift, but I saw one particular one. So we worked on everything. Like I love the collaborative aspect of our partnership. We worked on your brand positioning strategy, your messaging. We worked on your copy, your offers. But one of my favorite things is when we worked on you know and your visual branding, your website and all of that. That was amazing. But we worked on your photography.
I love the day that you came to my home. We had a photographer come and we did your photo shoot and I felt like that. There was like a shift in you from getting your photos back and starting to see your website come to life with the colors, with your ginkgo leaf and your logo. You know what was it about it? When all of those things started coming together, that just felt like your value proposition was starting to like move from your head a little bit more into your own body. You know more you were embodying it. What was it about that? That changed it for you?
0:26:40 - Michelle Natalya Moore
So I had never worked with a photographer in that way a full day. You know photo shoot and it was a process of being seen. The camera sees you right and then you see the output of what it's like to be seen. Especially, we were in such a comfortable environment in a home and it was a female environment. There was another client of yours there and we vibed together and all of us vibed all four of us in the room vibed together and it was just fun. But I think the biggest answer to your question is, or the most clear answer is, it's about being seen.
0:27:22 - Betsy Jordyn
I love that and I could see that, like in the mirroring is like I remember some of the pictures, like I brought you into my photo shoot so you're going to be in some of my new pictures is you're so expressive, like you were able to bring out expression, like we have pictures of you like, ah, are you having, you know, frustrated with this? Like you, it felt like you weren't just saying, like just you weren't posing for pictures, you were acting out the experience that you wanted your clients, like the before and then the after, to have, and it was. That was. I love that you were being, I think you were being seen and you were showing up.
0:27:59 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Yeah, and I think that's what happens. You know I talk about my love for creating spaces for new ideas or meaningful connection to arise. Well, you did the same thing right. You created a space for this photography shoot to arise in a meaningful way, in a different way, and that's experience design. That's brilliant experience design. And you see the benefits of that right, how we all you know the results of all of our shoots were just. They were just lovely and purposeful and it was fun. It wasn't a laborious process.
0:28:42 - Betsy Jordyn
We had music, we went out for lunch, we had a lot of bonding. There was other moments that were really impactful to me, and I don't know if they were as impactful to you as when we landed on certain language to describe what you do. You know when we landed on. You're a digital well-being strategist and you know you're helping people who think for a living. Can you talk a little bit more about those terms and what they mean, and why did coming upon those terms mean something to you?
0:29:05 - Michelle Natalya Moore
So I think it was really key to work with somebody, to work with you, because this is a new industry and a new profession and it may be called something else a year from now, but the digital well-being industry is. It's a confusing term because what is that? Some people think I'm a marketer when I say that Marketing digital well-being apps or something you know, meditation apps or something right, and the word well-being and wellness, and you know there's a flurry of activity in the mental health space. Of course it's confusing. So, coming up with a word that might appeal to, first of all, does it align with my purpose, the phrase right and will it appeal to my target clients who are consultant type, people like me and like everybody who's listening? Yeah, and that's the challenge right To walk through, because you and I had a lot of back and forth, because you had your view on it, and then I was like, well, that's not authentic to me.
I need to have kind of the more serious, I guess, word strategist in there, and digital wellness versus well-being is a whole big conversation. And the word digital is also complex because it could have been, you know, and I called my new Substack blog that I launched on Friday, your Tech Relationship. I didn't call it the digital well-being blog or whatever, so there are so many ways to phrase what I do that it gets a little mind-boggling. So, walking through that and talking through those terms with you as well as what are the terms for the benefits I create for clients, that was a laborious, important process.
0:30:53 - Betsy Jordyn
And I think that what I love about messaging versus like positioning, positioning solid, like what got really clear to me about what you do is that you work with high achieving people who think for a living and whose cognitive capacity is sort of like taking a hit. It's not just like burnout, like okay, I'm physically tired, it's like my brain is empty, and you help them create routine structure or work-life design to bring the brain capacity back. You know, you were the only person I went to when I wanted to go on sabbatical, because that's what was going on for me. It's like my brain was empty and it's like what do I need to do?
And one of the big parts of my sabbatical was going on a device-free as well as an advice-free and vice-free retreat, but the devices is because you inspired me around it, and I think that positioning is clear. And then the beauty about messaging is you can switch it up, you know, however you're talking, if we were back in 2020 and everybody's on Zoom, you could say you know, are you somebody who's like you know thanks for living? And your brain is just like drained cognitive capacity, sort of like you're a personal trainer, you know, for people who are working on their body capacity. You just do it for the brain, which is why the ginkgo leaf. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
0:32:17 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Oh, the ginkgo leaf has so many meanings. I became obsessed with the ginkgo leaf years ago and, by the way, the ginkgo leaf is her icon for her logo.
0:32:27 - Betsy Jordyn
In case you're wondering why I brought up the ginkgo leaf and it's inside a brain, right, so, so that.
0:32:32 - Michelle Natalya Moore
So the ginkgo leaf, I think, first arrived in my life because I did study, you know, german literature and I'm half German, so I, so I was reading Goethe in German and he has an amazing poem about the ginkgo leaf, and that's probably where I first encountered some of this mystical messaging, some messaging around the Zen aspect of ginkgo. And ginkgo has so many layers because as a plant it is also sold as a brain supplement to improve brain function, so you can buy ginkgo bilboa capsules in your corner health food store. It also has a philosophical meaning in multiple religions because of the duality, non-duality. So the leaf has a split in the middle and so really it means, yes, we can feel like we're two separate things, but we're all joined as one, we're all the same. And so this duality versus non-duality messaging. And then, oddly enough, the shape of the leaf also kind of looks like a brain.
So the logo that you and I created has that imagery in it the brain and the ginkgo at the same time, because a lot of the healing and a lot of the productivity improvements come from reducing mental overload, improving innovation, having the brain rest, all those different things, creativity that all comes, you know, from here, but this is attached to the body as well, right? So, looking at it holistically and the ginkgo is a holistic plant, and it is one of the oldest trees on this planet and I saw, I was in Japan recently and I saw a ginkgo tree that survived the atom bomb Wow, that survived the atom bomb, wow, and it had tipped over a bit, but it's still in this beautiful garden in Kyoto and it's more than 100 years old and it is flourishing.
0:34:43 - Betsy Jordyn
So resilience is another message from that. So let's talk about the transformation of you take a client through, like let's kind of like paint out the picture. So somebody's dealing with the transformation of you take a client through, like let's kind of like paint out the picture. So somebody's dealing with some sort of like I think for a living and I'm having some sort of cognitive capacity, and everybody who's listening and my consultants and coaches who work with me, we tend to all be head people, we're all sages, we all think for a living, so we can kind of get stuck on our head. What are the signs or indicators that would say something's going up with your cognitive capacity and or your relationship with tech? Like, how does this show up and present in our lives?
0:35:17 - Michelle Natalya Moore
So it depends on the person, and I have a self-assessment that kind of goes through five areas and I call these elements. So there are five elements that impact our ability to harness attention, and so one of them is focus. So we might notice that we're losing our ability to focus, we're not able to do deep work for two hours at a time, or we keep tasks switching because we're bored or we don't want to do the hard thing that we're wanting to do that day, and at the same time, we're starting to feel overload in the brain, literally this kind of. I feel it like a blanket kind of over here, and one of the solutions to that, of course, is, you know, go outside, do some meditation. But one of the first places people notice is they say I just can't focus, I just can't focus, I'm distracted, I just can't focus Right and I'm task filtering all the time.
Another area is culture, the culture in the team or even the culture in the home. That culture could be a culture of instant response. So I see this mostly with tech teams is, you know, they say they have slack on crack because they feel they have to be responsive and visible constantly in slack channels or even in Google docs. If they're invited to collaborate on a Google doc, even if they're not really necessary, they feel like I have to collaborate on this Google doc or people will think I'm not participating. So you have this overload because you feel the need. Given the culture of the team or the families, do this to each other too, right, they'll message each other and think you have to respond to me because I'm your mother, right, or whatever. So this culture, one of these, the main red flags, is this culture of instant response. Are you participating in that? When do you have a choice to participate in it and when can you design such that you don't have to participate in it? Right, so that's, that's another one of the culture piece.
And then the the other symptom is having a digital closet that looks like your overflowing clothing closet. Right, you have those California closet people, right? You know those, those, those home organizers that come into your house and declutter. Well, we need to do the same thing for our digital toolkit. So you know, making it so understanding, do I have?
You know? How many tabs do I have open at a time on how many monitors? And how many apps do I even need? How many apps do I need to create value or have meaningful connection with other humans? And how many monitors and how many apps do I even need? How many apps do I need to create value or have meaningful connection with other humans? And how many are just peripheral. And I keep getting new apps because they're new, shiny, new tool syndrome is another symptom of this right. So that's another part of the assessment. Where am I in my digital toolbox? Is my digital toolbox serving me, or is it the overloaded closet where I can't even find the prettiest clothing that I need to wear that's going to serve me the best?
0:38:11 - Betsy Jordyn
So I have. I'm going back in time to many of our Zoom calls and you're like ah, you have so many, you have so many tabs open, close them, close them now. Now I understand that you were. You were really giving me early warning signals that I could be on this path towards like the cognitive overwhelm. So that's that was it. Okay. Now that all makes sense why you were like so bothered by my number of tabs. Well, trust me, because I have this problem.
0:38:38 - Michelle Natalya Moore
I still have the tab problem because I, if I don't finish something I don't want, I want to remember. This is my excuse, right, I want to remember to finish it. So I leave it open on screen number two and it might stay there for a few days, but I really I could have closed it. And so you know, these are not problems that we solve overnight and I'm, you know, I'm the same human as everybody else and I have the same issues with my relationship with tech. Because one important thing I tell people it's not your fault the business models of all of this tech, including workplace tech, collaborative tech like Slack, is designed for engagement. It's not our fault. It is not our fault, but we do have the responsibility, unfortunately, to proactively design our workspaces, our digital toolkits for more focus, our digital toolkits for more focus and okay so.
0:39:28 - Betsy Jordyn
So signal number one is that we have an inability to focus. Second two is we have evidence of being in a culture that's like reactive and you have to be like jumping Johnny on the spot and jump in at all times. Third is we have like messy digital closets online. What are the fourth and the fifth signs that would say these may not be in the same order for all people, right, these?
0:39:48 - Michelle Natalya Moore
just this one, two, three, four, five, it's in no particular order they could just be indicators Exactly.
Another indicator is what's going on in your environment, in your physical workspace, be it the home office, the office office, the shared working space or the virtual space. Ie, you and I are in a virtual space right now and we're doing a pretty good job. We have backgrounds that are not distracting, right, we've got the books, and we don't have a bunch of stuff bothering us in the background, right. So that's an example of a good practice. But you've been on Zooms also, where people are multitasking, and so there's this. It's a long conversation about the design of virtual meetings and then design of your physical home office, office, office and other office, wherever that is, when you're traveling or working in coffee shops, and how do you design those environments to enable focused work time that you need so that you can be productive in any of those spaces?
0:40:52 - Betsy Jordyn
And it's just an operative design.
0:40:53 - Michelle Natalya Moore
And it's different for everybody. There's not a one-size-fits-all solution, right? It requires real thought based on your own personality, your own team, your own type of work and the physical spaces that you are constrained by. Right, there are things you can't change, sometimes in your background, right? So then you just have to figure out how to work with that.
0:41:13 - Betsy Jordyn
So you actually helped me move when I moved to Orlando and helped me organize my house, which definitely helped with the rest of the rooms. But it's interesting is, before I went on sabbatical, I was kind of in this in-between zone around what I wanted to do with my office and out of everything that I got clarity on in terms of, like, what I want to do in my rebrand, my office was the last thing that came into play and it's like I had to really work on the intentional design and I think that word keeps coming back. It's like well, what is it that I wanted to even have in here? And everything I have behind me is intentional, like I wanted to bring back, like my Disney background, but I still want to be connected to my mission and I have some of my favorite books I have. Actually, if you look on my wall, you'll see some of the stuff I did, like in Russia and all of these other accolades.
And I think that there is something about intentional because even if you have to quickly do something, after a while it doesn't, if it doesn't support what you're trying to do. It could feel like a dream, even if there's nothing behind you, like as much as I kind of liked having my icon on the wall in my old, in my old office, you know, it wound up because my camera stunk and it was like look purple, like I hated every time it made me feel anxious, even though it was minimalist and there's more behind me. So I think that there's an interesting about the, about the physical environment, that I want to affirm and and also affirm to the listeners that you actually have amazing skills in that particular area.
0:42:36 - Michelle Natalya Moore
My, my Also, what are you looking at Right? What are you looking at outside your window, for example? To, anyway it's, it's multifaceted, it's faceted and fascinating at the same time. Fifth thing what's the fifth indicator? The fifth thing is pulling it all together. So I sometimes call it balance, I sometimes call it harmony, and it's really how we make a check on where are we on all of these other four things.
So, as a human, I kind of lead a discussion with a person or with a team that says you know what is the level of balance or harmony you want in a given week, between city and nature, for example, or between work and play, or work and rest. For everybody it's going to be different, it's not about being equal. So this nuance about okay, we've gone through these four design aspects. Now how do you want to define and it's a bit nebulous, but how do you want to define that you're in the right balance or harmony with your degree of focus, with your culture, with your digital toolbox and with your environment, and that is across like 10 dimensions, right?
We also, with teams when I work with teams, talk a lot about how much are we relying on analysis, paralysis versus dialogue and embodied innovation to come up with solutions to hard problems. So what's the balance or the harmony between the wisdom we're tapping up with, a solution to whatever we're solving, or the product that we're building? So these are nuances that are ah. Now I know what the feel should be, the approximate feel, so that I can do a check every once in a while on. Am I in the right balance or harmony with the way I've designed things and is it working for me, or do I need to tweak it?
0:44:58 - Betsy Jordyn
So the starting point then, if I could summarize what you're saying, the clients that you work with are high achieving professionals, women in tech and or teams who think for a living but have some sort of like cognitive, cognitive capacity issue and that is indicated in the five different areas. Their focus is off, they are in a reactive environment. They have like a messy digital closet they are with. The fourth one was the space in their workspace and then the fifth is like how it all comes together. That's their starting point, sounds like. The ending point is that they have more harmony and balance in the way that they're doing work. They have a work-life design that really supports and it seems like it's a different approach to problem solving, which is not like overthinking, but a little bit more like dialogue and collaboration and other ways of doing that. Is there other things that you would say that people get on the outcome when they work with you?
0:45:55 - Michelle Natalya Moore
So I would say the starting point can just be a general feeling of overload, right. It may not be as specific as one of these areas, because people aren't aware that these are the five areas that impact our ability to harness attention.
0:46:09 - Betsy Jordyn
But those are some of the signs. Yeah, it could be one of those five areas. It could just be overload of some kind, like it just can't sustain capacity. On the other side is like I have sustained capacity, I have, I'm more in flow, I have the harmony, I have different approaches of decision making. More time, more time.
0:46:27 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Better connect, better connections with other humans at work or at home, and the creative capacity are protected and rejuvenated. And also you're armed with. Once you go through this process as a team or as an individual and as an individual I would say you just become aware of how things are shifting. This requires tweaking all the time. It's not like the closet Well, the California closets. People also have to come back and kind of clean it out again, right? So it's just. It's just. It's it's in the first round of designing through these five areas. It's an awareness building project first, because people are like oh, wow, and then here's what I can tweak, here's what I have control to tweak. Here's what I don't have control right now to to tweak because of company policy often, often Right, and these are the things I can work with, these are the things I have to put aside, but that might shift right. So it's a very fluid and dynamic process because we're human beings changing all the time.
0:47:35 - Betsy Jordyn
So let me just do a little tight messaging on here, because I think that sometimes, as consultants and coaches, we get confused between, like our methodology and what that's like in terms of the outcome. You know, and really the brand promise that you are providing is like for people who are individuals, high achievers and teams who think for a living, who kind of feel like they're in cognitive overload and overwhelm, and then you want to move them to not only do they restore their capacity, but they enhance it and it moves into all kinds of other things. That's the value that you're creating, as well as creating a life that's more in flow, but it seems like in the middle. You know that's what you do. So when you talk about your outcomes like, just like, because that's really powerful, like that is a transformation people would want to pay you is, as our team, like we want to be able to expand and you just kind of touched on it, but then you kind of like moved away from it and you got more into it could change and you have to continue and tweak and adjust. If you were doing that in a networking event, you would want to really lead with like yeah, not only like, if you feel like you're a high TV person who works, whose whole business model you know, your whole financial future is based on your ability to think and you feel like that's in decline.
You know, what I do is, you could still say, at a high level. You know I do want to get a little bit more as we wrap up into the different ways that you help people. Is what you do is you help them strategically and intentionally create you know, work life, personal habits. You know you could say it like that, but at the end of the day they are not only going to restore that cognitive capacity but they're going to expand it in a different way where their creative intellectual horsepower is even bigger. And in addition to that, they're going to have routines and a work-life design that really supports them. It's in flow. It's this constant rejuvenating type of thing Like nail that because that's really powerful. Then you kind of glossed over it and you went into it, but you have to change it all the time.
0:49:25 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Does that make sense? This is the power of Betsy Jordyn. You just witnessed it, the clarity of messaging. Yeah, some of my clients would say I have more resilience, I have more capacity, I have productivity with ease, I have accomplishment with ease. But yes, from the perspective of the project, definitely there's a change in mental, productive, creative and intellectual capacity which leads to a better feeling of well-being as well, but I would still push you to name and claim.
0:50:02 - Betsy Jordyn
another part is not only do I get productivity with ease again, I restore it. So when they work with you, not only do they restore to their previous levels of cognitive capacity, but they increase it. You create additional creativity, additional innovation that they didn't even know they had, because they create different kinds of wells of replenishing that mental capacity.
0:50:28 - Michelle Natalya Moore
I think you said it. You said I like the analogy that you get a bigger gas tank and you're able to fill the gas tank. You're not just filling the current gas tank but you're able to expand the size of the gas tank and have more capacity because of that.
0:50:43 - Betsy Jordyn
Yes, yes, yes, okay. So from a messaging standpoint, I would just encourage you to say you know when you could use the car analogy. It's like you know, when people think for a living are running and empty, like they have no more gas in the tank and they don't even know where to go to the where the next gas station's going to be. You know you can use some of that analogy based on what you're talking about, but, yes, but own that value, that extra value, because that's that's what the value is of working with you, versus them trying to figure it out on their own. You know, is that they get they're not working with the same size gas tank. That might be what they want, but what they need is a bigger gas tank.
0:51:21 - Michelle Natalya Moore
It's a bigger gas tank that's not even polluting more.
0:51:25 - Betsy Jordyn
Exactly. So yes, yes, yes, yes, okay. So now that we have enhanced your messaging, let's get clear on the different ways you help people. So we have the Offline Orlando Club, so people who are in Orlando could join and sign up for your events. Is that correct?
0:51:44 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Yes, so those are all private events that are sold separately. I would say Right, so I don't have ongoing events on the website, but I have events because they arise and people need a space to have an offline event. So that is one product you could say that exists. The other, device-free offering.
0:52:08 - Betsy Jordyn
Go ahead. Hold on. Just to clarify if people go to your website and sign up for your email list, will they get notified about those private events when they come up?
0:52:17 - Michelle Natalya Moore
The private events generally. The public is not invited to those, because they are catered towards a specific organization.
0:52:23 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh, so it's like it's sponsored by certain, yeah, or it's one team.
0:52:28 - Michelle Natalya Moore
It's one company is doing the event, for example. So yeah, so professional associations.
0:52:35 - Betsy Jordyn
So the way to access these private events is, if you're a professional association, or if you're a firm or a company, then they just email you and they or they can sign up on it. Can they sign up for a meeting with you on your website?
0:52:49 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Absolutely, because one of the offerings is do you need a space for a half day or a full day offline experience, and that could be a team meeting, that could be a retreat. So I've hosted retreats for women in this space and they can simply give their parameters of what they want and then it's specifically designed for that non-profit group or that for-profit innovation team. It depends on the client.
0:53:25 - Betsy Jordyn
So if they head onto your website and can you just give us the address real quick, they can get onto your contact form and get all the ways that they can connect with you to get that situated for their organization or for their professional association or for their professional association.
0:53:41 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Sure, so the website is michellemontaliamorecom, spelled M-I-C-H-E-L-L-E-N-A-T-A-L-Y-A-M-O-O-R-Ecom, so just my name and there's a link to the email.
0:53:53 - Betsy Jordyn
There's a link to my LinkedIn and there are all those ways to connect with me, and so that's one of the things that you do, do you?
0:54:08 - Michelle Natalya Moore
still do private coaching, one-on-one, if people need that as well.
0:54:09 - Betsy Jordyn
I am not doing private coaching unless it's an extraneous circumstance, but I am doing Like someone like me who wanted your advice about If you're going on sabbatical or you're like I'm at desperate places and I need to like quick advising, like just a one off.
0:54:23 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Yes, so I am doing, offering the work design offering for a B2B team, and the other thing is the I'm blanking here the digital wellbeing workshop. So a starting point is a digital wellbeing workshop or a digital wellbeing talk to get acquainted with the benefits of digital wellbeing and what on earth it is, and then, following from that, teams contact me to find out what do they actually need, based on their team size, in terms of work design, to improve productivity and well-being.
0:55:05 - Betsy Jordyn
Got it. So you have like. Speaking is one opportunity. The other is the Offline Orlando Club. That's private experiences. So either people could hire you as a speaker, they could hire you to come in and create that Offline Orlando Club experience for either their association and or their organization and then for people who are just connecting with you. I understand you did mention that you started a sub stack. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
0:55:33 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Yeah, I literally started a sub stack on Friday and the sub stack is called your tech relationship and the Substack is called your Tech Relationship. And in that blog or in that newsletter, I am providing information from all the resources that are talking about this topic from the challenges with AI, from how to meditate better, from how to create better meaningful relationships, from the data coming out about the harms of social media on children, that it's increasing depressive instances. This came out last week. The big news was several research publications showed definitive data now about how increased social media use has direct link to decreased mental health in teens. So alarming kind of things like that and productivity hacks. The intro to the newsletter goes in detail through everything I plan to put out there and we'll see where it goes.
0:56:45 - Betsy Jordyn
That's amazing and I do feel like that. That's a good environment to bring out more your activist side, because that is where a lot of activists are posting, and I think that there isn't activism here because you have to go countercultural in so many ways and there are a lot of people who are concerned about it. Parents are concerned about it. There's so many things now as having like 21 and 23 year old right now that I wish I would have been more on top of understanding what was going on with my kids and their tech. Like years ago I would have put parental controls in a way that I probably, you know, I wouldn't have thought that it's my values, but because of all of that you're talking about, so I think that's really powerful.
0:57:20 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Well, you see more countries, you know, and the Surgeon General even of the United States put out a warning sign, a warning label, or advocated for putting warning labels on social media apps, and you have several countries like Australia who have put in regulation related to that. So there is a movement underfoot to help protect the brains of our youth, not just vulnerable youth, all youth.
0:57:44 - Betsy Jordyn
That's amazing. Is there anything else that you are offering and that you want to share about? Not at this moment. Thank you, Betsy. That's amazing, though.
I love the direction and I love how you're embodying a lot of the things that I teach my clients all the time. You know, when we go through the brand messaging and positioning you put your website out there is, it's never going to be a hundred percent perfect. You know, when you launch, it's always like you put something out there, see how the market responds, see how you respond, and then you tweak and adjust, and that's exactly what you're doing, and you're continually getting more and more refinement. You know, I just I love how you're just you're so grounded and when you're talking about this stuff, I think it's amazing. Before we sign up, though, I just wanna everybody here, I know, is in your target audience Like we are struggling. Is there any like just one tip that you can give to the audience about what they can do today? Like just one small tweak to create more mental space, more capacity? Get out of the overthinking and the analysis paralysis.
0:58:45 - Michelle Natalya Moore
So I love that question because I gave a talk on it last week and the quote that I start out with is from Yuval Harari, one of my favorite authors, who says the power of tech is not in the machine, but how we choose to use it. And so the first step is just noticing for one week, taking notes how am I in relationship with my devices? First of all, how many devices do I have in front of me at a given day? Right, most of us have a phone, a laptop and a monitor at a given day. Right, most of us have a phone, a laptop and a monitor minimum, but there may be a TV. Right.
How many devices am I in relationship with on a standard day in work and personal life? And then just start to notice what is the quality of my relationship with each of these devices. With which device am I mostly reactive? Which device is bugging me all the time, is yelling at me all the time? Which device is just more sitting there waiting for me to pick it up when I need to use it? So the noticing that we are actually in a relationship, much like we're in a relationship with another human being. We are in relationship with our tech, whether we know it or not. So that's my advice Notice this for a week and kind of catalog it and then notice where is this relationship really helping my life, helping my productivity, helping my ability to innovate, getting my work done, getting me paid because maybe I need to use my tech to get paid and where is my relationship suffering Because it's making me crazy?
1:00:28 - Betsy Jordyn
Or I mean when I yell at chat GPT for not listening and mansplaining For example, right, but so this is the very simple starting point.
1:00:37 - Michelle Natalya Moore
And the other one is you could take an inventory of not only the number of devices, which should be hopefully a little bit less should be less than 10, I hope devices, unless you're gaming but what is the inventory of tools? How many tools do I actually have on each device? How many different tools do I have on each device? How many different apps? And see what that digital closet just looks like. Is it overcrowded?
1:01:06 - Betsy Jordyn
Those are great advice. So we talked about a lot of different things today as it relates to your journey into your own business adventure. We talked a lot about your mission. Is there anything else that you want to tell me about your transition from being a Big Four partner, a Big Four equity equity partner, into what you do now? And I'm just not asking you the right question.
1:01:25 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Well, I think you've asked me the right questions, I guess. The only thing that I would add to that is my surprise that a transition like this, especially because it hit in midlife as well and hit in COVID, is so lumpy and lengthy.
And maybe clients of a certain age like me. You might warn them that the iteration is not going to stop after just one round of working with Bets the. I don't think I noticed all the iterations I had before I started working with you until I reflected on it recently and that the iteration is ongoing.
1:02:09 - Betsy Jordyn
That's great. That's a great way to end it. You know, because I think one of the things I do warn people is that when you are leaving, you know, a secure job to start your own business or grow your own business, take it to the next level. You know, it's not a career transition, it's a total life transformation and the whole idea of a transformation. The word transformation means literally changing forms, and so changing forms like how long does it take for this is why the butterfly is so much like a big icon is how long does it take to be in the cocoon Like and can you really accelerate it? Like? You can accelerate it by what we did is like we went slow to go fast, because I think we got you to results faster, to at least some sort of platform that you could iterate from. But the journey is like ongoing, you know, like and it's really taking that intentional time, like using the practices that you're talking about to continue to uncover. You know what this looks like.
1:03:02 - Michelle Natalya Moore
A hundred percent, I think, creating the new website, you have to see it to know and sit with it to know do I need to do, I want to change it again or not? Because unless you can see the finished product, you're not going to know where to iterate from there.
1:03:18 - Betsy Jordyn
And if you don't have something out there for people to react to?
1:03:21 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Yeah.
1:03:22 - Betsy Jordyn
So we do need to update your services page. You're a speaker, you offer these offline clubs to professional associations and to organizations Like. We do need to update it so that all the things that you were talking about we do have the proper funnels, but we never would have gotten there if we didn't put something up there to begin with.
1:03:41 - Michelle Natalya Moore
No, and to your point you can tell by my hesitancy in answering the question you asked me. What are your list of offers? They're in iterative process at the moment so I wasn't able to rattle them off, which is a big mistake for this podcast. Obviously Not really.
1:03:58 - Betsy Jordyn
No this is perfect for the podcast. This is perfect for the podcast. This is perfect for the podcast because this is the reality of the experience. So I just like invite you to continue with the continuous improvement as a way of life. Like I have iterated my approach to how I do brand building for this very reason is I'm bringing the strategic framing of your offers more to the forefront. You know, we went from high level but we really didn't get into this work and now it's like okay, now it's time to revisit it and we need to bring it up and I had to reiterate it based on the experience. You know.
So you continue to learn and that's why it's like stay clear, like I think brand positioning is so super important, is like that's your North star. But then everything else is tweaking, adjusting. You're playing with your messages all the time. You're playing with your offers all the time. You're playing with your marketing. Maybe the sub stack is going to work for you, maybe sub stack goes out of popularity and you have to try something else tomorrow. You know, and that's the beauty of the adventure, that's where the growth comes from.
1:04:55 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Actually, Betsy, you asked me. What question should you have asked? I think for me, the guiding light is purpose, and I keep rephrasing what my purpose is. So, right at this moment, I feel so compelled to bring awareness about digital well-being and the risks to our tech relationship to the world on various levels. And I care so much about this topic because I'm scared when I read Wired Magazine when AI coders are being interviewed and saying 30% of coders quote won't use AI, say anybody with a moral code will not use AI.
That came out of Wired Magazine last month and talking about Q Day and anyway. So there's scary stuff out there that I feel compelled to talk about. And talking about Q Day, and anyway. So there's scary stuff out there that I feel compelled to talk about, and that is part of the reiteration of purpose, and I really feel so strongly about it that I can't not do it. I can't not be part of this. Whatever this new industry is or this new profession is that some people are calling digital well-being. It may be called something else tomorrow, I don't know, but I can't not talk about it, and I think that that's where it's like getting the why.
1:06:06 - Betsy Jordyn
You know like that's part of the process too is like there's what you do, but then why, Like I changed the name of the podcast you know it's no longer enough, already it's consulting matters because I'm much more connected to the why. It doesn't mean that I'm going to put my why all on my website, because I need to be more clear that I'm going to help you get your next level of success and impact faster. You know like I need to talk about that, but I think that that's a really important thing and I'd love to explore more, but we've gone over an hour and I need to let you go. Thanks for the conversation, Betsy. Anytime. This is why I love working with you, because I know you and I can go on and on and on, so we need to schedule a hiking time or something along those lines Will do.
Thank you so much for being on the show, thank you for sharing your journey and thank you for sharing all your really practical tips about digital well-being, or whatever it's going to be called. This has been wonderful. Thank you so much.
1:06:54 - Michelle Natalya Moore
Thank you, Betsy.
1:06:55 - Betsy Jordyn
Before we wrap, I want to leave you with this. The reality is, our path to success is not a straight line. Progress moves more like an ice skater going side to side. You put something out there, see how the market responds and how you respond, and then you adjust. That's exactly what Michelle did and that's exactly what I help my clients do Build clarity and momentum as they build their business.
So if you want to hear more about Michelle's experience working with me from the inside out, you know, head on over to my website at Jordyn slash success stories. So this is another one of those new pages on my website that is ready for you to see. I think I've mentioned before that my website is in the middle of transition and finally my success story page is up and Michelle's stories is transition. And finally my success story page is up and Michelle's stories is featured. And if this episode resonates with you, here's what I would love for you to do For sure hit subscribe so you never miss an episode. Share this episode with a colleague who's navigating their own business shift. And if you want to work with someone like me, one-on-one, to help you build your business, like I did with Michelle, I would love to help you and, as always, thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time on Consulting Matters.
