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0:00:03 - Betsy Jordyn
Okay. So are you a consultant or coach, or thinking seriously about becoming a consultant or coach, and you're in a big time crossroads in your career and you're not sure which way to go? Well, you're going to find out how to navigate these uncomfortable places, and why they're so uncomfortable, on this episode of the Enough Already podcast. And welcome to the Enough Already podcast. This is the show for consultants and coaches who want to forge their own path to success in their careers and their lives.
I'm your host, betsy Jordan. I am a business mentor and I'm a brand messaging strategist, and I'm here to help my clients find the words that describe the unique value of what they do and create those messages that attract clients. But today we're going to be talking about all the steps that take place before we get into your brand messaging, which is trying to figure out which way you want to go with your career Do I want to stay in corporate or do I want to start a business, or do I want to do something in corporate or do I want to reinvent my business in some sort of way? And as much as I love talking about career crossroads and how important they are, I decided to bring on an expert, my colleague and friend, kathleen Oshab, who is now a.
She's an HR executive turned career coach for executives and people on all different types of walks of life and help them figure out what they want to do with their careers. Kathleen is amazing. She has a great personal story You're going to hear all about it and she's super fun. I think that my absolute favorite team building retreat I ever did when I was an organization development consultant was with Kathleen, and I'm sure we're going to find time to tell you all about it. So, without further ado, welcome to the show, kathleen, so excited to have you here.
0:01:45 - Kathleen Ochab
Thank you, happy to be here. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
0:01:51 - Betsy Jordyn
So there's so many things to talk about. But every time I think about you I do smile. We did a workshop when we were both back at Disney and you were the HR leader for an attractions team and I was the OD consultant and we did all kinds of creative things like bringing in I think Survivor was our big theme and you and I went and bought all this stuff and that was a lot of fun. But I know in your career you went from that kind of role and then you went to doing HR leadership roles in health care and a bunch of other things and now you've landed on this new career focus. So can you just kind of tell us, like, how does somebody go from like HR as a career and being an executive to what you're doing now, and why are career crossroads so personal to you?
0:02:41 - Kathleen Ochab
Yeah, great question and there's so many parts of it, so I'll start with the professional side of it. Right, I think for many individuals, including myself, we end up at a crossroads where we kind of decide what path to take. Right, there's so many analogies to being out in the woods and deciding which path you want to go down. And I have very much appreciated, enjoyed the connections I've made and the help I've been able to provide to not only organizations but more importantly, the individuals in those organizations and, as time went on, realized I was doing a lot of kind of informal coaching in my role as an HR business partner. Right, individuals, they knew how to run the business and bring profit to the bottom line, but they'd come in my office and, just like I kind of so often said, I wish I was a doctor in psychology because I felt like I could be so much better of a provide a better service to those individuals.
So, fast forward to about five years ago, I kind of thought I need to go back and get some formal training in this and pursued going back to grad school again for the second time and pursuing getting a coaching certification as governed by the ICF and wanted to again, just sharpen my tool belt right, put some extra tools in there and skills to provide thought-provoking questions and probing questions to individuals, and so continuing to work in the corporate world and having this as kind of a side hustle.
The energy to both wasn't where I wanted it to be. So through that and some major life changes of my own kind of was at that crossroads of what do I do, where do I go, and said, let me jump off and try this. So here we are. This coming summer it'll have been a year that I've left the corporate world for the first time in over 25 years to really dive into something I'm passionate about empowering others to be their best self and help them find their strengths and, if they're at a crossroads for whatever reason, coming back into the workplace, navigating within their own corporate situation, maybe potentially considering leaving or becoming their own consultant in some sort of business world. Helping the individual understand and explore what's best for them, because only they know. Just like I had to figure it out for myself, help other people figure out what's the journey that they want to take.
0:04:54 - Betsy Jordyn
You know, it's interesting, as you bring up a point that I deal with all the time when I'm working one-on-one with my clients through their brand messaging, which is part of the big reason why at the beginning, I was helping consultants, but now I help consultants and coaches, because a lot of times, when we get to these crossroads, the decision is here's my formal career, this is what I built everything on, and now here's this passion area that I'm developing, and it's not exactly the same.
And so that crossroads that I experienced with my clients, which it sounds like your story is, this is what I've done, but this is where my heart is leading me, and that seems to be like the essence of the crossroads is, if your heart was leading towards something that you are familiar with, you know, you just go down that path, but when the crossroads comes up, it's like, well, my heart wants to go here, you know, but everybody else is telling me this is the smarter decision or this is what I think I should do. How do I trust this heart and what's what's emerging for me? How did you get to that trust of like my heart? My heart matters and what I want to do and what I'm passionate about doing is worth pursuing.
0:06:00 - Kathleen Ochab
Yeah, there's two parts to it. One is right do a T-chart right and do a pro and con list right. There's definite practices along those lines that are beneficial. Then you have to weigh the things right. So if I did a T-chart of staying in the corporate world versus pursuing my own passion and coaching and helping others the list in the second column was longer but I had to weigh it when I was in my life three kids that I wanted to be able to support going off to higher education.
The part of the country I live in, like the electricity, is not going to stay on by itself, so I had to weigh the options of what was happening in my life. So that's one piece of it. But probably the more meaningful piece just to like go deep fast is you know, I had a near death experience or traumatic brain injury, and when life slaps you in the face and you almost don't have another day to wake up, it makes you appreciate every moment you do have. And the second chance I was given to catapult and be here to be of service to others, just as those who were complete strangers to me were of service to me and my family.
0:07:11 - Betsy Jordyn
So for you, like it's kind of like you were looking at the logic on the T-chart, but then really, what compelled you is like, oh my gosh, I may not live here. Kind of like what drove me a lot of times in my decision-making is like that, bon Jovi, like it's my life, it's now or never. I ain't going to live forever, you know. I just want to live while I'm alive. It seems like that became such a defining moment for you, like it's almost like pre Kathleen, pre accident Kathleen, and then there's post accident Kathleen.
0:07:41 - Kathleen Ochab
Yeah, you're reading my mind and actually it's funny you quote that song because for a while that was my theme song. There's also a book by David Brooks I don't know if you're familiar with your audiences called the Second Mountain and I don't want to steal the author's amazing writing of it. But the first mountain that they talk about, he talks about in the book, is climbing kind of the more traditional path of right. What do you want to achieve? Title wise, income wise? Do you want stock options? What are the golden handcuffs? Those types of things, and I'll be the first to acknowledge that was important to me, like like I was driven by my career, my success. I felt validated and appreciated the recognition I got, both through additional responsibilities, the team members I got to develop and grow in the titles that came with it.
And then I fell off the mountain, I fell into a valley, and the analogy in the book is for all of us in life. Something pushes us off the mountain your own health issues, a loved family member, the passing away of someone you care about, the loss of a job it doesn't have to be a massive thing. But you fall into a valley and as you dust off and think I got to climb back up the second mountain. For many, and myself included, there's a realization of like did the crap on the first mountain really matter? Right At the time it was important. I don't mean to negate it and suggest it's not important, but at the time now, different things and being of service to others, community, the relationships on the can fall on, was that second mountain for me. And so there's times where, right like the weight pulls, wants to pull me back out into the valley. But how do I continue to persevere and pursue different things that provide value to me and others.
0:09:26 - Betsy Jordyn
Are you familiar with Richard Rohr? As an author, I'm not Okay. So he has a great book. It's called Falling Upward, you know, and he talks about like we have our first half of life where we sort of like build a container, you know, for our lives and our strengths and experiences, and the second half of life is like letting go of that whole thing and that there's like a necessary downward journey, you know. So he says falling upward and I think that's what you're talking about.
And in my experience, you know myself included like when I left Disney and I started my own business, like I didn't immediately start my own business, I left Disney and was in the Valley, you know, and I probably kept visiting the valley, you know, until I figured out, like my the right business, and I think that there's a necessary, you know, unraveling. That's why I have, like, the butterfly behind me is, you know, like the butterfly. You can't just immediately go from a caterpillar to a butterfly. You can't just, like you know, paste on these wings and think that you could fly. You know you have to go through the cocoon in order to come out transformed in some sort of way.
But your cocoon experience seems like even, you know, more dramatic, because you literally not figuratively almost died, like it's not, like, oh, death of ego, like you almost lost your life. And that seems to be a different kind of experience. Like what would you say, are the big lessons that you learned, even about, like what's important? I think you talk a lot about like the dash, you know living the dash. Like what did you, what did you learn? That was unique to compare to other people who went through like a metaphorical death, where you almost went through a literal death.
0:10:58 - Kathleen Ochab
Yeah, you know that that cliche, that expression, live the dash probably summarizes it. That, for those who don't know what it means, right, if you have a gravestone, you have a born on date, a dash and an end date. The reality is, none of us are immortal and so my dash has a little bit of a gap in it, right, small. I flatlined, for, you know, they brought me back and here I am, but coming back and realizing for many reasons I was given a continuation of my dash, but it will add some day too. So how do I make the most of this time here? And that's a very high level learning. There's a lot of other things, right, be of service to others.
The morning of my near fatal accident, there are four or five things that happened that day. Like I literally should not be sitting here talking to you, betsy, but for whatever purpose higher purpose that's out there there were things that happened that morning that prevented me from bleeding out on the street, that prevented me. I mean, just, I'm sparing the details, but I'm hinting at them. Like there's a lot of little things that happen, so I'm total strangers. Like, like, save my life, right, and so not only just making eye contact and smiling, which is one of the seven service guidelines at Disney.
I'm making eye contact and smiling with someone working behind the counter at Starbucks in the morning, or helping someone bag their groceries into the back of their car, to having a really meaningful coaching, career transition conversation with someone. All of those little things matter and even if they don't like, try right. Babe Ruth struck out more than he hit home runs, and so be there for other individuals. That was a big learning for me. As I've reflected back Didn't know about it Four months of my life is missing. I have no memory from the accident to about four months later, but as I've peeled away the layers and gone through a lot of reflection is just being there for other human beings while we are on this planet is another huge takeaway. So live the dash and be there for others.
0:13:08 - Betsy Jordyn
So when you went through the experience, like you were able to, you didn't know that other people were helping you, like at that immediate accident. And then what did happen? When you found out later, like oh my gosh, my life was saved by these people. Is that like where you're saying like my life was actually saved strangers, who knows what I could do for other people? Is that the connection that you're seeing?
0:13:32 - Kathleen Ochab
Yeah and right. So immediately after, right as I'm well and able, you know we're talking like nine months, nine to 12 months later, and you know my family shared with me what happened and I went and met with those individuals, a to thank them and B to kind of like ask them, when I was ready to hear it like, can you tell me the story? There was a witness to the accident at 5.55 in the morning. Don't know why he was out walking his dog that early, because normally he did it at 7., but for some reason he was out walking his dog that morning. So become a dear friend, close to his family.
And I get the details of the story of something I have no recollection of, right so that the law enforcement officer who was their first responder had the opportunity to interact with them and have them share with me the experience on that day. And you know and I didn't do it to feel good, but just the appreciation they had. They're like you came, like A, you're here and B, you came back to thank us. I'm like how would I not do that? Right? So translate that I mean it's a big jump, fast forward to many, many, many years later is not knowing when you're going to be able to be of service, small or large, to individuals.
I just had a client this morning that I was doing a coaching call with and his reflection was he was like he's like I know I shouldn't call you Dr Kathleen, but you're like my therapist and like had an aha moment and I saw it on his face in the camera and so did I do CPR and resuscitate his life. No, but was it a moment in which our interaction, our dialogue, the questions I was asking turned a light on inside him, where he walked away and will hopefully have a better, stronger day and week?
0:15:14 - Betsy Jordyn
You know, sometimes I compare the difference between like a career and a calling. And a career is related to like what, what I like to do, what strengths I like to use. You know what I want to do. And a calling is more of like what needs me, you know what strengths can I not help but use, and it sounds like that. That's kind of like the zone you're at. It's more of on like how do I build my work life to be of service, and this reflection of like what needs me rather than what do I need. That seems to be like your first mountain, second mountain I don't know if I'm hearing that accurately.
0:15:48 - Kathleen Ochab
Yeah, no, very, very eloquent summary.
0:15:51 - Betsy Jordyn
I should write it down and reuse it, because it's so good Well good thing we have a recording here because this is on the show, so awesome. So tell me about like. I mean, I understand. Like for your transformation, you know that you were here. Now you're going here. You want to be of service. Like, what is it about Career Crossroads, out of all the different ways that you could help people and all the ways that you can be providing coaching? Like, what is the ripeness about a Career Crossroads that just interests you?
0:16:27 - Kathleen Ochab
to you Many things, but I think one that comes to mind as you're asking. The question that immediately surfaces is everyone faces a crossroads in their career at some point, if not multiple ones, I rate. You know whether it be as simple as it's the end of my summer job and I've got to stop to go back to school. Whether it be a transition and hey, I'm working for someone who I adore, a leader, a supervisor, a manager. We are so close. They're going to come to me and my partner getting legally married to. All of a sudden, they're laid off or they're transferred somewhere else.
I mean, right, we could go on and on and on about there's always change. That's one of the things we can always predict is change will happen, and so some of the crossroads are bigger than others. Should I stay, should I go? Should I develop my skills? And so I think that's a long answer to your question is why a crossroads? Why does it attract me? To help people self-reflect and think through it. Is any individual who has responsibilities, something's going to come in the way, and they're not always barriers, they're not always roadblocks you always don't have to detour around them but something that will challenge them to have to pursue and show up the next day a little bit differently than the day they did before. Some of them big, some of them small, things that they have to surmount.
0:17:42 - Betsy Jordyn
But you know you're making me think about, like we talked a lot when we were at Disney about the different kinds of change. You know that there's continuous improvement, change you know where you're just constantly tweaking and improving something. There's evolutionary change and then there's transformational change.
You know, I feel like you're talking a little bit around, like, yeah, you should always be like improving, taking to the next level or what have you. You know, evolution might be as like I was a manager, now I'm a, you know, a director, you know I'm a VP, you know that might be that kind of thing. And then there's transformation, where you're like changing forms. You know the root word of transformation is changing forms and they're bigger than others. So like, what would you say is like somebody where it's like okay, well, I lost my boss. You know I have to figure this out versus like the transformation that you just went through is like I was in corporate America for 20 something years. Now I have my own business. That's a total transformation. What would you say are like the emotional experiences of those different kinds of change relative to somebody's career? And why is it like transformation is so much like of a bigger ballywick to?
0:18:50 - Kathleen Ochab
Yeah, the answer that no one likes is it depends, right, in multiple factors. It can depend on the individual and their makeup, right, our brain is the most complex and somewhat misunderstood organ in our body and so, to that end, right, you know the frontal lobe, the back lobe, left hemisphere, right hemisphere, how they interact. Like there's so many amazing personality and profile assessments that individuals can take. So what those individual that their individual strengths or preferences are sometimes impacts like to me. From the outsider, I might say that's like okay, so your boss got promoted and you have a new leader, what do you do? But for that individual, for whatever reasons I don't understand, could be a massive change for them. Maybe you wouldn't describe it as transformational, but has a big impact on them. So that's why I say that the depends is all relative on the emotional reaction that an individual has.
But there are other individuals who you know, after a 25 year career, maybe let go because of none of their performance or potential issues. But the company merged and acquired, and you know what. You don't need two CFOs when there's a massive merger of two big organizations. Right, you might consider that transformational, but an individual in that situation is like this is the blessing I was looking for. I'm now going to do X, y, z, so you would think promotions would be heightened and elevated there, but maybe not. So all that to say, I think it's. It's really that's. That's. A big part of coaching is is helping the individual dial into how is this impacting them, what are you feeling? You know what are your values and how does this support or put you in conflict with your own values? Whether it be you know from the outside lens what you might consider a small cultural improvement or a very significant transformation, as you defined it before.
0:20:42 - Betsy Jordyn
So what would you say? Like you know, my audience here who the people are listening is like they've gone through what you're talking about with the layoff. Some of them might have had like, oh good, this is a blessing in disguise. Some of them might have reacted to say, well, I'm never going to be in that situation again. You know I'm going to go and you know I'm going to go and start my own thing. But I would say, no matter what the circumstances are, you know, everybody deals with fear. Every single one of my clients deals with fear at these crossroads. Why is fear such a potent part of this journey and what do you recommend about dealing with fear at these crossroads so that somebody can make an empowered decision?
0:21:23 - Kathleen Ochab
Yeah, I'll answer the second part first. And it can be just simple, because it's not simple but self-reflection of and this is where, again, which I had my degree and I was Dr Kathleen psychologist that, um, that's where coaching there's not a line. I will cross that. If someone does need the professional medical support of an individuals to um, discover, um and unveil on things from maybe their past or their childhood or an experience that happened, that is creating that fear. But it's just some self-reflection. So it's again, it's a gray or a blurry border to not cross, but a lot of times the fear comes from kind of looking in the rear view mirror and understanding what's making you feel that way in that moment.
And then somebody's looking out the front windshield of the car and where do you want to go? So, again, do some reflection in the rear view mirror. But that's a small mirror in your car. Your front windshield, if you're driving, is much larger. So refocus the energy on. Can't change the past. Let's reflect on it, understand it. But let's look out the window and design where you want to go and what's best for you, but allowing for that time for self-reflection. Right, there's all these different change management models and grieving models, and so how do you invite the individual to spend the time they need looking in the rear view mirror and, when they're ready, look out the front windshield?
0:22:46 - Betsy Jordyn
So I could see that there's definitely like some grief. You know, in order to move forward, you have to let go of what's been. You know, and you have to work through that one. But sometimes somebody looks at that front mirror you know, I mean the front windshield and it's like I don't see, it's not clear where I'm going. You know I chose to go on this road, you know, but I don't know exactly what I'm going to encounter on this journey.
You know, how do you help them mitigate that fear of the unknown as they move forward? Because, no matter how much reflection at least my experience, you know, doing the branding is, you know it's not until you start driving the car and you go out on the road that the clarity will arrive. I've never really seen someone like I'm here and all of the information is just going to be downloaded, exactly where my destination is when I get in the car. Like it's vague, like okay, you're going towards. You know this kind of business, ish, you know, but you're going to figure it out as you go on the journey. So how do you help somebody where it's like, okay, that normal fear of the unknown, how am I going to replace my salary, you know, with with this, you know, in this new container of my career, right, what if I let people down? And you know, in this new container of my career, what if I let people down? And you know, do I really have what it takes Like, how do you help someone navigate all of that unknown?
0:23:59 - Kathleen Ochab
Yeah, so two. I always have two parts to your question. So I think the first thing is is what is the big picture Like? Close your eyes, draw a picture. What do you see yourself Like, whether it be financial goals, title goals, type of business you want to work in, be independent, be intermittent what does that look like? And then break it down into small, bite-sized pieces, right?
So I'll use a running analogy. Right, I wake up one day and say I'm going to run a marathon. Well, you know what? Day one you're not going out and training and running 20 miles, nevermind 26. You may start with a walk around the block, you start with a mile, you do a 5k, you do a right and you build up to that. So what are tangible, realistic, small actions that will help you get your goal? And then, along the way, if I pull my Achilles heel, you know what 26 miles isn't looking so good right now. So what could plan B be? So I don't maybe need to think of day one of I'm going to go off the path.
But we all face detours. I keep using all these analogies, but right, like Waze or your GPS on your phone, auto routes you. So when you do face those barriers, stop and pause and think what could a natural route be? And so the second answer I'd say to that is helping people get there is I strongly encourage, removing the physical body from this space that you're trying to solve for, and so I call that dialogue in motion. So I very much appreciate. In a door taking a client, let's go outside, right, let's just remove ourselves from the screen, from the computer, from the conference room, from whatever space they're spending their time, and A. Remove yourself from that and maybe just don't even sit in front of your computer if you're not able to go outside. But B, if you can go outside in nature where you can reground yourself and the perspective changes and like the moments of reflection seem a little bit deeper. It's funny.
You talked and you went back to our time and that amazing team development we did and Survivor was the theme, and didn't realize it until you were just talking about it. They're like we were taking that team. They knew how to run like for the busiest theme parks on this earth and get guests through that like hundreds of thousands of them a day. Right, and we removed them from them and had them pretend like they were on the game Survivor out in the wilderness, out in the wild, and they had some ahas and some reflections of how their skills and their strengths and their opposite of strengths were showing up in the workplace. So again, just that's an example from a while ago, but I see it happen often where you take individuals away from their day-to-day and they do that self-reflection. It helps them think through.
Okay, here's some steps. We want to be XYZ as an organization, the best of the best. What are the steps to get there? Or, if you're starting your own business, right, I have dreams of like doing all 2000 plus miles of the Appalachian Trail with clients and hiking for all six miles. You know what? That's a big, lofty goal. Let me do a four hour walk in a local state park first.
0:26:56 - Betsy Jordyn
It's so interesting that I'm thematically getting here because I just had a guest on the show. Her name is Laura and she does works on adventure mindset with doing mountain climbing here in Colorado, and she talks a lot about the value of being outside and being in that kind of experience where you're sort of challenging yourself. So you have a lot of congruence for what she's talking about. But I think what I would kind of say what makes it different from what you're talking about and I don't know if this is an accurate theme that I'm hearing but when I hear the way you were talking to people who witnessed, like what had happened to you and you're interviewing them, it's almost like you're interviewing them and from an objective standpoint, like it wasn't, like it was something that happened to you. But you're in this, like I'm observing my life. Even when you talk about like the T thing, it's like well, how do I get objective? You know, and it seems like that there's something about like okay, well, how do I get objective about what I'm observing? Like, instead of like being in the mix of all of this stress of how am I feeling or what I'm dealing with? Like, how do you take a like, an outside perspective, because I think that's one thing we did with that team.
And then the other thing that we did with that team is we made it fun. You and I remember we got online and we bought all like the little buffs and we had the music playing. We were cracking ourselves up and we were cracking them up because we made it a game show. You know, rather than like this, is this serious? Like okay, we got to work on. You know how do we enhance these relationships? It was like we made it fun, we took them outside. I wonder if that's a big part of like your coaching or how you see how to navigate these things. It's like go out, you know, see it from a different perspective, but bring a little bit of light and levity to the whole thing.
0:28:39 - Kathleen Ochab
Yeah, no, it, it, it does. Right, there's, um, if I had like I don't right now, or I'd have, if I like blew up a little beach ball, right, with different colors on it and held it up to the camera, you would see the white and then the colored stripes. So it's a white, red, white, blue, right. Then if I switched it, you'd be looking at different colors, right. So just a visual of, an analogy of, or a visual analogy of perspective is important, and so I don't want to be hypocritical, though, because I said, I think in a previous answer a few minutes ago is allow yourself and encourage I encourage clients and myself to allow myself the time to ruin that moment and have the emotions, acknowledge the emotions are there, I'm right. So you don't want to dismiss that. Allow for it. But also, when the time is right, when those emotions have been kind of reflected on, evaluated, pull yourself away and say okay, what?
And that's where I think a thought partner or coach, a peer, a confidant, the Gallup, the Q12, question seven do you have a best friend at work? Do you have someone that you can have that interplay with, who can maybe provide the perspective if you're stuck in the emotions, which is okay, right. But sometimes that individual can help and, in my situation, right dealing with I will right. I have lifelong different abilities that I am managing and will manage the rest of my life. So, right, wrong or indifferent, there's compartmentalization that is naturally happening in my brain without my control, so it gives me the space to just be like all right. And I actually had the individual who saw me that day. I was like, can you take a piece of paper and draw what I look like on the ground?
0:30:23 - Betsy Jordyn
It's like why do you want to see Someone?
0:30:26 - Kathleen Ochab
asked. I asked him to take a piece of paper and draw how he came upon me and found me and he was like, well, I was like I wasn't there. He's like, yes, you were. I was like I don't remember it, and so that seems really crude to even share and say, and I know he felt he was very much taken aback when I asked him to describe physically what he saw laying on the ground that day. But it was. It was a complete, that's a very dramatic example of a complete separation of emotion from. Give me the tactical, give me the reality. Let me process this. So then I can merge the emotion with, like, the subjective and the objective and figure out what am I going to learn from this?
0:31:09 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, and it's also like without having some of the narrative, like you like working through, like emotions are our energy, that are supposed to flow through us, and that makes sense is that we have to. Like you said, people are stuck on emotion. That's different than I'm going to work through. The emotion, and I think that was like a critical part, is this you know that I don't have a memory, so it's keeping me from processing the emotion. So I need to get the debt. I need to have a memory, so it's keeping me from processing the emotion, so I need to get the, I need to get the information, and I think sometimes, like I think that that is an interesting analogy is like oh, I got laid off, you know, or something happened to me. It's like you almost go into like shock, denial and disconnect from whatever that is, and somebody really does have to go back to the narrative, like this actually happened, not the story that you make up about it. You know this actually happened. Yes, their company merged. You don't need to a CFOs. You got laid off. Does that mean that you suck and the company never cared about you? And you know like, no, it doesn't mean all of that, but you do have to grieve that loss because you have the position, the colleagues, you know all of the, you know the routines, the hopes you might've had for the company. Like that is a, that is something that is worth working through.
There's the shock of the whole thing and I think sometimes people self-optimize their potential, like sometimes I wonder, when I deal with people and their imposter syndrome, you know, when it comes to their business, it's like is it because you have unprocessed shame over what got you to this point? You know that it's okay that you burn out and that's why you left corporate. You know that's what just got you here. That's what the universe used as a catalyst for you. You had a very dramatic one, but that is. You know that's not the. You had a very dramatic one. I would have to say Like my heart breaks when I hear you talk about it. But the principles are still the same. The universe is going to guide us to whatever that is, but we kind of have to work through, like what it?
what, what happened, so that we don't let it keep us stuck. I think that's why a lot of people don't say yes. At the crossroads is all of that unprocessed emotion and shame that they're even there.
0:33:12 - Kathleen Ochab
Yeah, no, so well said. And then my question would be like where's that come from? Right, and it's a rhetorical question for us right now, but helping the individual explore where is that, even before getting to acceptance? Where is that fear, shame, whatever word to describe the feeling they're having come from? Is it external forces? Is it? You know you no longer your kid going off to college can brag about my dad's a CFO of a fortune 100 company, my mom's the chief marketing officer, whatever the case might be right, where it may be, it's external, but maybe it's internal. Right, you have certain expectations on that first mountain for yourself, or your income, your title, the type of organization you work for, how you want to make an impact on the world as you're journeying through it. So where is that feeling coming from before you can accept the feeling to then move forward with okay, what's next?
0:34:09 - Betsy Jordyn
And I think that there's global myths that we all believe. I think what happens a lot of times when high achievers hit the pinnacle of the first mountain is everybody's telling them this you've achieved it all. You have it all. You have hit the pinnacle, you've got it. You, this is what everybody wants. And then you're feeling existentially on the inside. It's like is this it? You know, like this can't possibly be it. But then you feel guilty because everybody else is telling you when I left Disney, everybody thought I was crazy. Like I didn't.
You know, I was working on that basics project. It was about to go global. You know, I had a lot of you know, and it was a high profile project and I left like I, I I hit my existential crisis when my dad died and you know, similar, you know, not as dramatic, but there was like that still like that death, like you know, I'm not going to live forever thing. Everyone thought I was crazy. I only had one person tell me that that was a good move. You know one person, he was older, he took me to the side and I'm like you know, I don't want to, I don't want to miss out on being there for my kids Like I don't know what you're doing here, you know, but it was the right decision.
But I think that that's. I think what a lot of times we deal with in terms of like, where's this coming from? Is that there's that myth, and then there's another myth that I can't possibly make money doing what I love. You know, my work has to be over here, my passion's over here. The twain shall never meet, and I don't think that's accurate either.
0:35:41 - Kathleen Ochab
It's the right. The sore with your strengths of right. The parable at the beginning of that book is around let the rabbit run Right. And so how do you help the individual identify the rabbit's really good at running and the tortoise is really good at swimming. How do you identify your version of running or swimming?
And ideally, and there's, I think there's some pushback of like they say, like, don't have your hobby ever become your job, um, because then you might lose your interest in it. So there's right, there's trade-offs to having a hobby or something you love, or even a passion, becomes something that, um, sustains the income that you need to to to pay the bills. Um, but's a balancing act, and that's where I truly believe and go back to like each person has to figure it out for themselves. There's so much external pressure.
Social media doesn't necessarily help the situation and you know there's titles that come with it right, wrong or indifferent, perceived glory and so, and there's certain income thresholds and so, putting all that aside, an individual doing self-reflection of what matters to them, and it's different for everyone, and I'm not negating that like right, you think of individuals, I know who, the level of responsibility and impact they can make as a CEO or as a COO of a very large organization. That's really what matters to them. And helping them reflect on how they can make as a CEO or as a COO of a very large organization that's really what matters to them. And helping them reflect on how they can achieve to get to that level. That's awesome. Just as important as an individual who wants to take total strangers on a hike in the woods, and that's fulfilling to them.
0:37:15 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, and I think that goes back to like your calling, like what is your calling and are you going to be a good steward of it? I would say somebody who is at that CEO role, like talking about the example of the tortoise and the and the hare, you know, I would say this person is gifted with executive leadership. Like that is where they're supposed to be, you know. So, you, you, we are each responsible for almost being the steward of our own gifts and our own calling, and it's not just for ourselves, like I think that the whole idea of like I'm just going to do this little thing on the hot, you know, a hobby on the side, like I have a, a close friend from Disney, ex Disney person used to be a singer, lost her voice, became a pharmaceutical sales rep and you know he's got all these creative talents but he does it all on the side and it's sort of like not in the, you know, not in the main of every day. And you know, and it's like he has that, that disconnect, you know, between like what he really wants to do but not trusting it, you know, and that they're like everything is monetized. In my world I believe everything's monetizable, you know, put a little strategy against it, you know. But if you are, but that person you're talking about, the CEO, like, this is their, this is their calling, this is their genius. And you know, you know, we know people. You and I worked with that leader that we're talking about. We did that work session, for that man was put on this earth to lead others, you know, using his unique relational approach. You know, and that's what makes him special.
And I think what you just said, you said earlier, as a coach, all those years as an HR executive, you always felt like I want to be Dr Kathleen, I want to be this person. I love doing this. Like that was your genius showing up. You're really gifted. You're not. You don't. It's not your ICF certification that makes you a great coach. You are a great coach. This just gave you some tools. You're a great coach Cause that's and I know this from you from all of those years ago. I remember hours sitting in your office talking about different things. Thank you, yeah, so I love. Can we talk a little bit? Not speaking of coaching. Can we talk a little bit about your coaching? I want to talk about you know. I know you have traditional coaching that you do where you work with people one-on-one, but you also have the forest coaching. Can you talk a little bit about like your programs and how you came up with the forest coaching?
0:39:39 - Kathleen Ochab
Yeah, thank you for asking. So more traditional coaching is right. It's. It's one-on-one, right. The coach is showing up, listening to the individual, help them identify what they want to work on, their goal, their what success would look like at the end of the coaching time together and going through that and kind of checking in on that can do that in a virtual setting. It's lovely to be able to have connections all over the world and be able to offer that service. There is, however, nothing that replaces in-person, face-to-face. So also offer that as an opportunity. And then team coaching as well.
But the marriage of I have a natural ever since I was a kid, right, reflecting back on it love of the outdoors, hiking, camping with my family, growing up and then fast forward to during my recovery and my rebuilding, both physically and mentally, of myself after the accident. I found such peace and comfort. Right, they I was my doctors were telling me I needed to go back inpatient for different recovery and I was like, no, please don't lock me in a hospital, right? Unless you're like Baker acting me, please don't do that. And so I would go out in the woods alone and I've done some overnight solo hiking and the peace I found and the rebuilding, like, literally, I'd love human beings, I'd love the interaction with others. You know that, betsy, right, but there'd be days where I'd be in the middle of the woods and I'd look left and I'd look right and I would realize I hadn't seen another human being. I'd seen, like more than the human world, right, trees, animals, birds, but no other human being for like over 24 hours, and I love that feeling right and lots of self-reflection. That's right. That's, that's the extreme of it. And again, I'm not professing um, nor do I ever desire. I admire people who do like you know 14,000 footers and check them off their lists, and the individual you're mentioning before that's. I admire that accomplishment. But I'm just talking like, even like a four hour hike by myself in the woods. And so when I realized the, the rebuilding it did for me, started looking into like, what is this? Is it just because I'm getting fresh air and understanding a little bit more about forest therapy and forest bathing?
Shinrin-yoku is part of the Japanese culture where they prescribe for medical recovery, like doctors are trained in forest bathing, that they encourage their patients to go outside and it helps in their healing. I'm not, again, a doctor. I've said that too many times, but there is scientific and analytical data, science that suggests that, like blood pressure rates go down, heart attacks are less when people are outdoors in nature. So take forest therapy. I'm getting my certification to be a forest therapy guide through the ANFT at the moment. So take that with the concept of coaching and how people explore what their professional goals are and marrying those two, it's more than just. It's a part of it is getting them away from the day-to-day kind of you know. You know as coach, a call with someone just yesterday and, of course, like their teams is digging their you know their phones going off, or which is understandable, right, I'm not judging in any way, shape or form, but we're out in the woods, their teams isn't digging while we're sitting in the forest and having a discussion about where they want to go in their development. So to that end that's another offering is even it can be just meeting in a state park and sitting outside and having a coaching conversation.
But a lot of times the true reflective time for an individual comes when, if we are going on a walk and so times I'll pick a topic, right. So conflict management or leading change, or pick a topic that is relevant to most leaders in the workplace and have the session within a group anywhere from five to 10 individuals. We will talk through and do self-reflection on that topic. And the individuals I love it when they learn from each other, right, they share hey, here's what I'm going through, here's what I tried, and they're almost. They're not coaching each other, but in a way they're sharing best practices and learning all the way to an overnight.
I'll take an individual and we'll do like. You know, I have my packing list is what you need to bring. I'm first aid wilderness first aid certified, not going to put myself or the other individual in an unsafe situation and we'll do like a three day, two night overnight hike. And there'll be moments. I mean more than moments.
There is one time where it was a good almost three hours where no words were said, right, and I just kept looking back over my shoulder to make sure the individual was doing okay and they were safe and they were just walking and reflecting. And then, sure enough, that night, at the campfire, after we were sitting around the tent, like it, it like the flood, the floodgate was gone and it came out, and so I don't know if it was the reflection that happened in those three hours of complete silence. But it's not like we're walking and talking the whole time we're out there. There's a lot of self-reflection that goes on. So hopefully that gives you a little bit of insight into everything from a more formal one-on-one coaching to we'll go out in the woods and stay the night if that's what the individual wants. It's kind of a capstone to our time together.
0:44:55 - Betsy Jordyn
So have you ever heard of the Camino de Santiago, like that long walk, you know? Is it? You know they talk a lot about that as a you know similar type of transformation that you're talking about. You know where people are kind of like leaving things behind and they get to this other part. Is it the walking part that's so powerful? Is it the trees in the forest that's so powerful? Or is it the combination, like, could I get the same results of going some like on a beach retreat, get a beach house? I seclude myself, I just sort of like sit at the beach. Could I get, you know, is it the nature part or is there something about like the trees and the enveloping, or is there something about the walking like on a destination that works?
0:45:38 - Kathleen Ochab
It's really all it's. It's all of the above, right, and it's it's. It's twofold. It's one figuring out for the individual, like there's a peer of mine, a cohort, who I went through the coaching program with. She knows walking barefoot on the beach is therapeutic for her. So right, that's a. That's a space where we will. We will brainstorm with each other best best practices and coaching.
So the trees in the forest definitely the trees offset spurs and things that you breathe in that help you. But also being careful on the beach can help, and some of it, like I said earlier, it can be just removing yourself from what is a typical day-to-day environment. It can be even just sometimes taking your work chair and moving it closer to a window, if there's a window where you live. So, as I say, it's all of the above and it ties to what's comfortable and makes the individual feel safe but also pushes. It's a little bit of a rubber band, right, you want to push yourself outside of traditional comfort limits, but for some individuals it could be hiking the entire PCT, the Pacific Coast Trail or the Continental Divide.
When I was doing the state of New Jersey on the Appalachian Trail two summers ago, I was going southbound, from the New York border down to the Pennsylvania border, and I met this through hiker. Crunchy is this is trail name and we. The nice thing about when you come to the lean twos at night is you just kind of all throw your packs down and you get to know really deep conversations with someone you'll never be to get. You don't know their known, their, their just know their trail name. So, crunchy and um, he was through hiking from Georgia and he said I'm done, when I get to New York I'm getting picked up. And I was like what I'm getting picked up? And I was like what? And he's like I found what I was looking for.
To quote another song, right, and I could tell from his reaction he didn't want to share it. Because the next natural question would be like, well, what were you looking for? What did you find? But I just read his body language in that moment and, um, we just sat there in silence and ate from our like freeze dried food. And um, from Georgia, I mean, that's a long hike. So whether you do a minute or you know six months, he found what he was looking for. Which kind of ties back to think, for each individual it's different. He didn't need to get to Katahdin in Maine to find what he was looking for, but for some individuals it can be sitting on their back porch if they have a back porch or sitting by a window in their apartment and reflecting.
0:48:01 - Betsy Jordyn
You know, what I love about what you're talking about, too, is in terms of what your offering is is that you do intensives. So it seems like you do coaching sessions, but these are more of you know, more deep dive intensives. But instead of like sitting and doing a deep dive intensive, like sitting there on Zoom, for you know, hours on end, or even sitting in a conference room, it's like let's just get out, let's get moving, let's get digitally detoxed and just move into this other way, so we could open up for new ideas and new perspective. And, using the analogy also, I see, if you're talking about helping people with a crossroads, you got a million crossroads. When you're walking a trail, you got like am I going to go this direction? Am I going to go that direction? How do I navigate it?
There's a lot of applicable principles that you could do there, versus like even just sitting. You could be somebody who does like let's just sit on the beach, and you know, and that's a grounding thing for you. But that may not be what you're offering Because, again, what you're focusing on is helping people navigate choices and decisions and which way they want to go, and that seems to make a lot of sense. How do people find out about your programs Like where? What's your website address? How can people connect with you?
0:49:12 - Kathleen Ochab
Thank you for asking. So. Compasscoachme is the website and you know there's. There's stories, there's pictures on there. One of the things I'm very proud of is every picture that's on that website is something other than the professional headshot, is something I've taken on a trail, on a hike, um. You'll see other individuals I've hiked with um through the icf. I'm logged on right and available as a coach um through that resource as well. So those and then linkedin either through kath Oshab or Compass Coach. Both are available at Compass Consulting through LinkedIn as well.
0:49:44 - Betsy Jordyn
So thanks for asking. You said compasscoachingme.
0:49:48 - Kathleen Ochab
Compasscoachme is the URL website Compasscoach. All one word me me Awesome.
0:49:55 - Betsy Jordyn
So we talked about a lot of different things as it relates to really living the dash the first mountain, the second mountain. We talked about career crossroads. We talked about a lot of different things as it relates to really living the dash the first mountain, the second mountain. We talked about career crossroads. We talked about your coaching. We talked about all kinds of things. Is there anything else that you want to tell me and my audience, and I'm just not asking you the right question?
0:50:13 - Kathleen Ochab
You ask great questions, as always, betsy. Great, great dialogue, right, you promised that it would flow, you know, I think the I'll end with an analogy, like I've used a lot of them, so one that sticks with you is part of the reason I think that there's so many good learnings that can come from you. Know, any type of analogy, but the forest in general is that the forest can feel daunting and scary and frightening at times, especially if you're out there alone in the woods. But, just like the wild, life can be scary and daunting at times. And how do you lean into others and consider a coach or a close friend, as I've said before, to help you navigate that path? Because there's light at the end of it, one step at a time, one crawl at a time. So the wild can be scary and daunting, so can life. And when you face those crossroads, like, don't do it alone.
0:51:08 - Betsy Jordyn
I love that and I think what I would add in my take is that a career crossroads is not done to you but for you, regardless of the circumstances, and that it's an invitation to something that's different.
Otherwise you wouldn't feel that it's a crossroads and so, like I would probably just add in there, like as awful, like my heart absolutely breaks when I hear about what you went through, Absolutely, absolutely breaks, but when I hear the other side, it was like what it seemed like it could have destroyed you qualified you for this amazing second mountain in a very unique perspective that you're bringing into the world. And you know, no matter what the circumstances are, you know, if you got burnout, that there's, there's seeds in the burnout story that would get somebody to start their own business, or getting laid off, like there's seeds of every single scenario that you find yourself in. You know. So, if you can let yourself grieve what happened, reduce the story that you're making up about it and find the seeds, this is done for you and that the illumination will come. You know, if you give yourself some quiet and some space is the only like. I just add that I don't know if you agree with that or not.
0:52:19 - Kathleen Ochab
I do, I love that ad or that addition to it, and I think it's acknowledging like there's times when it's okay to have the pity party Right and I just, you know, I want to end on a very positive note, but like there was, there is too many pills, too much alcohol, too much.
Like there were things that I grieved and I had a pity party right, like why me, why me, why me and people are like just be thankful to be alive and I'm like, okay, easier said than done, so, um, right, and it's that it's finding an appreciation, um a acceptance, which we talked about before, but, um, the lessons learned from it. And that's where I go back to, like, the impetus of coaching businesses. I was given this chance, so let me be here and use my energy and services to help individuals navigate things that are done for them. If, even in the moment, it doesn't feel so good, it's okay to acknowledge that there's some icky times. But pause, reflect on that and then help people navigate that glimmer of light that you alluded to before, because it's there, just needs to be sparked and lit.
0:53:25 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, that was on that note. That was amazing. I would highly recommend Dr Kathleen I'll call you Dr Kathleen. You know we got a lot of people call themselves doctor. What have you? And just you know, for all those years of knowing you, like what you're doing now all makes sense and it's so fun to go back and it's like we're talking about like our fun survivor, you know team building session to you're actually doing it for real, you know we made it as a joke and you made it for real. So that's incredible. So I highly recommend. Yeah, that is really funny and it goes to show that all you know what we're supposed to do. The seeds are all there all along anyway. It's just sometimes we have to read the story and read it differently. So love that, highly recommend that Really. Like just you know, I love everything you talked about. For those of you listening, just thank you so much for being here. If you like the show, I'd love it if you would be willing to rate and review all of that.
If your career crossroads, you know, involves, you know, trying to figure out, if you want to start your own consulting or coaching business, please let me know. You know, definitely get on my website. You know, book a strategy, call we'll talk about it. It's free and we'll get you the clarity on all of that. But if you're really more at like I don't even know which way I want to go I'm in a and you're somebody who's trying to figure out your career, definitely reach out to Kathleen. For sure, there's no question. And it sounds like if you just want to like reconnect with you know nature and your heart, you know Kathleen would be your person. So I think that's it for today, until next time. Thanks for listening and thank you, kathleen, you're welcome.
0:55:01 - Kathleen Ochab
Thank you.
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